Ron Paul on Immigration. Do you agree or disagree with Ron Paul?

Do you agree or disagree with Ron Paul?

  • I agree with Ron Paul.

    Votes: 98 70.5%
  • Ron Paul is Wrong!

    Votes: 28 20.1%
  • I don't know.

    Votes: 13 9.4%

  • Total voters
    139
this should be the priority; dismantle the welfare state
Yes, and the motivation for doing so shouldn't exclusively be "illegal immigration," as far more "legal" individuals are collecting the "loot" than those labeled as "illegal." The "welfare state" is institutionalized theft, involving the coercive redistribution of resources by the state, which violates the non-aggression principle and the philosophy of domestic non-interventionism. For those infinitely more important reasons, it should be dismantled.
 
Ron Paul is right.

Cool, just don't bother chanting "constitution, constitution" "for liberty" "the republic" or any of the other idiotic slogans so popular around here if you, like Ron Paul are so willing to shred the constitution for your pet issue. :)

BTW Anti-Fed, any thoughts on this thread?
 
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You can't make claims that the US has the resources to handle 3 billion people and not have some sort of proof and then ask her to respond to that. Fact is, open boarders aren't possible. No matter how nice it sounds, it just can't happen.

Funny, until the 30's pretty much all of our borders (particularly the Texan border with Mexico) were open.

So, care to tell me again how it isn't possible?

BTW Ekrub, any thoughts on this thread?
 
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I have a question. How many of you in this thread who are for open borders, would like to see the Constitution and the U.S., for that matter, dissolved?

Just curious.

Funny, I was just wondering the same thing about you... AND Ron Paul!

Or wait, maybe you can show me where in Article I Section 8 Congress is granted the authority to regulate immigration? Maybe Ron Paul will step up and give it a shot?

BTW LibertyEagle, any thoughts on this thread?
 
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Many people agree that mass Illegal Immigration is a form of Invasion. The United States is constitutionally obligated to protect against Invasion.


Article Four of the United States Constitution, Clause 2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articl...rotection_from_invasion_and_domestic_violence

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.​
 
Many people agree that mass Illegal Immigration is a form of Invasion. The United States is constitutionally obligated to protect against Invasion.

Many people agree with health care and the United States providing for the general welfare. Based on this fact are you going to stop complaining health care is unconstitutional?
 
Many people agree with health care and the United States providing for the general welfare. Based on this fact are you going to stop complaining health care is unconstitutional?

Yes or no question. Is the Arizona law unconstitutional? On what grounds? (FTR I don't support the AZ law. But since you're arguing that immigration isn't the pervue of the federal government....)
 
The great thing about Ron Paul is that he has brought many people to the philosophy of liberty. The bad about Ron Paul is that there are many people who are followers and not individuals and thus worship what he advocates. Even though they have been presented with the concepts of "self ownership" and the "non-aggression principle" they reject the ideas for those of state control of their pet projects. Thus they reject liberty and embrace evil.

When are the border advocates going to understand that aggressing against peaceful non-violent individuals is evil. Why not choose more freedom and less government? If one is truly a liberty activist does it make sense to support governmental force for victimless crimes?

Ron Paul's stance on this is morally wrong. If you want to go down the statist road with him then don't be surprised where it leads. Comprising liberty has lead to where this country is today.

Everyone has their own pet project where they think it is imperative for the government to use it force to alter people's behavior. If you support borders and the limiting of free peoples movement then you are no different philosophically from the drug warrior. Ingesting chemicals and crossing imaginary border are both non violent, victimless crimes. The enforce of these "crimes" violate the non-aggression principle.

Awesome post! I couldn't agree more. :D
 
Yes or no question. Is the Arizona law unconstitutional? On what grounds? (FTR I don't support the AZ law. But since you're arguing that immigration isn't the pervue of the federal government....)

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Am I free to go?

No.

I exercise all rights including the right to remain silent and invoke all constitutional guarantees including the 5th and 6th amendments.

Given that scenario what grounds are you going to detain or arrest me on?
 
Am I free to go?

No.

I exercise all rights including the right to remain silent and invoke all constitutional guarantees including the 5th and 6th amendments.

Given that scenario what grounds are you going to detain or arrest me on?

So your basing opposition to the Arizona law on the 5th and 6th amendments? In case law up to this point it hasn't worked. I know because I looked it up. (And I don't support the AZ law). Basically there is a "totality of the circumstances"* test that can be used to establish "probable cause" for a warrant for checking immigration status. And even without a warrant the questioning may be deemed "reasonable". If you're interested in the case law I can look it up and send it to you.

*Circumstances that have been upheld include proximity to the border, difficulty speaking English, an overcrowded van of people headed to work etc. You might disagree with this. I'm just telling what the current state of the law is.
 
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Since you or none of your neighbors are going to get out in a field and pick strawberries sweating or work in animal shit all day plan on food getting a lot more expensive and eating less once immigrant labor is gone.

I agree with you on that. However, we've always allowed work permits for Mexicans to come here and harvest. However, after it was over, they went back to Mexico.

I see nothing wrong with that, whatsoever. But, we have a very different thing going on today.
 
WTF are you and Arion45 doing on Ron Paul Forums if you think Ron Paul sucks so much? Just wondering.

Did they say "Ron Paul sucks" or did they say that they disagree with him on this issue? I didn't go through the entire thread, but I didn't get the impression that either of them was saying "Ron Paul sucks"- I think they both simply indicated that they don't agree with Ron Paul's current stance on this issue.

One can disagree with a politician on an issue (or even several issues) without thinking he "sucks."

I know there are some here who worship Ron Paul as if he had come down from Mount Olympus casting lightning bolts, who would never disagree with anything he said.

Others of us see him as the best choice for President, but as a mere mortal, not an infallible God who is not to be questioned. We feel that it is okay to disagree with him when we think he is wrong.

This is one of the few issues where Ron has not been consistent over time. I, too, find myself more in agreement with the 1988 Ron Paul than the 2008 Ron Paul.

That doesn't mean I think "Ron Paul sucks," it means that I disagree with him on this issue.
 
I agree with you on that. However, we've always allowed work permits for Mexicans to come here and harvest. However, after it was over, they went back to Mexico.

If we have a permit program in place currently, it's broken or woefully inadequate (I thought that program ended decades ago).

One of the few times in 8 years that I agreed with George W. Bush was when he called for issuing work permits to all those farm laborers, etc (and idea which was quickly squashed by the GOP).

Until we can get rid of the welfare state, we need to rationally manage that needed work force. High walls, electrified fences, and machine guns aren't the answer.
 
This ain't a court of law. So I'm perfectly free to use your silence against you. ;) You want to say the other side is not living up to constitutional principles, yet you aren't willing to be nailed down on exactly what you think those principles are. And yes you are "free" to debate that way. And I'm free to call you out on it. ;)

According to the Constitutional principles I would answer no. However elaboration is required when exercising a privilege (ie. driving) and individuals contract with the state agreeing to follow statuatory rules in exchange for privileges or immunities.

Oh look... I have a citation... from SCOTUS even... :p

HIIBEL v. SIXTH JUDICIAL DISTRICT COURT OF NEVADA

The Fifth Amendment prohibits only compelled testimony that is incriminating, see Brown v. Walker, 161 U.S. 591, 598, and protects only against disclosures that the witness reasonably believes could be used in a criminal prosecution or could lead to other evidence that might be so used, Kastigar v. United States, 406 U.S. 441, 445. Hiibel’s refusal to disclose was not based on any articulated real and appreciable fear that his name would be used to incriminate him, or that it would furnish evidence needed to prosecute him. Hoffman v. United States, 341 U.S. 479, 486. It appears he refused to identify himself only because he thought his name was none of the officer’s business. While the Court recognizes his strong belief that he should not have to disclose his identity, the Fifth Amendment does not override the Nevada Legislature’s judgment to the contrary absent a reasonable belief that the disclosure would tend to incriminate him. Answering a request to disclose a name is likely to be so insignificant as to be incriminating only in unusual circumstances. See, e.g., Baltimore City Dept. of Social Servs. v. Bouknight, 493 U.S. 549, 555. If a case arises where there is a substantial allegation that furnishing identity at the time of a stop would have given the police a link in the chain of evidence needed to convict the individual of a separate offense, the court can then consider whether the Fifth Amendment privilege applies, whether it has been violated, and what remedy must follow. Those questions need not be resolved here.

These delegated powers, whether express or implied, are, (1) Those which are exclusively vested in the United States; and, (2) Those which are concurrent in the United States and the respective states.

It is perfectly settled that an affirmative grant of power to the United States does not, of itself, divest the states of a like power. The authorities cited settle this question, and it is no longer open for discussion in his Court.

The powers vested exclusively in Congress are. (1) Those which are granted in express terms. (2) Those which are granted to the United States, and expressly prohibited to the States. (3) Those which are exclusive in their nature.

All powers exclusive in their nature may be included under two heads; (1) Those which have thier origin in the constitution, and where the object of them did not exist previous to the Union. These may be called strictly national powers. (2) Those powers which, by other provisions in the constitution, have an effect an operation, when exercised by a state, without or beyond the territorial limits of the State.

As examples of the first class, may be mentioned the "power to borrow money on the credit of the United States." Here the object of the power (to borrow money for the use of the United States), and the means of executing it (by pledging their credit), have their origin in the Union, and did not previously exist. So as to the power "to establish tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court," the same remark will apply.

Of the second class, the power "to establish an uniform rule of naturalization" is an instance. This power was originally in the States, and was extensively exercised by them, and would now be concurrent, except for another provision in the constitution, that "citizens of each state shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states." It is not held to be exclusive, from the use of the term "uniform rule." This court has held that use of an analogous term, "uniform laws," In respect to the associated subject of bankruptcy, does not imply an exclusive power in Congress over that subject. The true reason why the power of establishing an uniform rule of naturalization is exclusive, must be that a person becomming a citizen in one state, would thereby become a citizen of another, perhaps even contrary to its laws, and the power thus exercised would operate beyond the limits of the state.

I cited both of these previously in this thread:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=242407&highlight=arizona&page=4

And have made citations in others on the matter.
 
If we have a permit program in place currently, it's broken or woefully inadequate (I thought that program ended decades ago).

What on earth gave you that idea? :confused:

http://www.doleta.gov/msfw/

One of the few times in 8 years that I agreed with George W. Bush was when he called for issuing work permits to all those farm laborers, etc (and idea which was quickly squashed by the GOP).

You're confusing the migrant worker permit plan which was created before Bush and never expired with Bush's "guest worker" plan which would have turned illegal immigrants into "guest workers".

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-01-08-workers-usat_x.htm

Until we can get rid of the welfare state, we need to rationally manage that needed work force. High walls, electrified fences, and machine guns aren't the answer.

Rationally manage that needed workforce? What role does government have in "managing a workforce"? And why can't we just work on what we all agree with? (Getting rid of the welfare state). But even without a welfare state, the border area which is extremely violent due to drug gangs back by former (and possibly current) members of the Mexican military, needs to be secure. (And yes I'm for ending the federal drug war too. But until that happens these people need to be confronted).
 
According to the Constitutional principles I would answer no. However elaboration is required when exercising a privilege (ie. driving) and individuals contract with the state agreeing to follow statuatory rules in exchange for privileges or immunities.

Oh look... I have a citation... from SCOTUS even... :p





I cited both of these previously in this thread:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=242407&highlight=arizona&page=4

And have made citations in others on the matter.

I think we were talking about two different things. I mistakenly thought you were exercising your 5th amendment right not to answer my question. I edited my earlier post to reflect this, but apparently you were in the middle of responding when I did. :o

As for court cases on the issue:

United States v. Martinez-Fuerte, (428 U.S. 543) - Immigration service didn't need any probable cause or reasonable suspicion at all because burden on rights from "visual inspection" and "questioning of passengers" didn't outweigh "state interest". Further that case noted that further inspection done "largely on the basis of apparent Mexican ancestry" was ok.

Estrada v. Rhode Island, (594 F.3d 56) - Officer had probable cause to bind passengers over to ICE based on the facts that they were 1) heading to work , 2) had trouble speaking English and 3) many could not provide ID when asked. Circuit noted it hadn't ruled on whether officer had right to ask passengers for ID, but that the immigrants did not bring up that point.

United States v. Lopez-Valdez, 178 F.3d 282 Police didn't have a legitimate reason to stop the car in the first place (the broken tail light was not bad enough to be in violation of Texas law) so they did not have probable cause.

United States v. Galindo-Gonzales, 142 F.3d 1217. A legal immigrant is stopped at a license checkpoint. He has his license, but not his registration. Officer did have reasonable suspicion with regards to passengers based on 6 factors such as the size and tinted windows of the vehicle, the proximity of the checkpoint to the border and that the men had "dark hair and brown skin and spoke Spanish". (Of course "dark hair and brown skin" is precluded from being a factor by the Arizona law. Speaking Spanish presumably is not. What about speaking English with a Spanish accent?)

United States v. Zambrano, 76 Fed. Appx. 848 - Reasonable suspicion for stopping car where driver had not broken any laws upheld. (Officer suspicious because driver starred at police car as they passed and drove 10 miles below speed limit when officer was behind him. I've heard of that being used to justify stops in drug cases.)

United States v. Rodriguez-Arreola, 270 F.3d 611 - Passenger is illegal immigrant. Officer finds this out by questioning driver who was speeding. This was upheld.
 
But even without a welfare state, the border area which is extremely violent due to drug gangs back by former (and possibly current) members of the Mexican military, needs to be secure. (And yes I'm for ending the federal drug war too. But until that happens these people need to be confronted).

Those are two separate issues.

1. Federal intervention for violence. a) Suggest Arizona petition the federal government for federal assistance against domestic violence within Arizona borders b) Suggest Congress declare war against an invading enemy

2. Federal intervention securing state borders to restrict the flow of goods or people.
 
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