Ron Paul on Immigration. Do you agree or disagree with Ron Paul?

[heavenlyboy34]

Charrob, be warned that most of the anarchists on this forum are very rude. It's their way or the highway. They don't realize that their high and mighty attitudes turn people off to their message.

I've had the same experience with minarchists.

 

[specsaregood]

Thank you for answering my question with a question

No I didn't. I answered your question; then I asked you a related followup question. There were two seperate sentences there.

Here, read this section it should help you get started:
http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/topic.php?id=5

 

[charrob]

wrong. it reflects supply and demand.

When going to the supermarket, an orange costs $.20 when an illegal alien picked it. However i'm paying a ton of money in taxes because that illegal alien has nine kids in public schools, gets food stamps, women-infant-children subsidies, free medical visits, etc. So, the employer gets put behind bars.

The business down the road who employs legal citizens sells oranges for $.35 per orange. Since my taxes are lower since illegals no longer come to this country, I can now afford $.35 for that orange.

 

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

Interesting, since anarchists believe that no laws and free markets are end-all-be-all.

Anarchists might, but Anarcho-Capitalists like Clay advocate voluntary contracts. Since every interaction anyone ever has in society is a contract it is not too difficult to see the benefit to an individual living in such a society.

It would hardly be a society without rules. Individuals who did not honor their contracts, injured people, or damaged property without restitution to victims would have a very difficult time functioning in voluntary society and would be ostracized. If through their own failures they resorted to initiating aggression or stealing from people to survive they would end up dead or without liberty.

The market naturally rewards honorable performance and discriminates against dishonorable practices. Stealing from people can only thrive with government intervention and a monopoly of force.

 

[low preference guy]

When going to the supermarket, an orange costs $.20 when an illegal alien picked it. However i'm paying a ton of money in taxes because that illegal alien has nine kids in public schools, gets food stamps, women-infant-children subsidies, free medical visits, etc.

so get rid of public schools, food stamps, children subsidies, and free medical visits.

stopping them from coming here will not work, because even if you stop them, there are 12,000,000 here already.

but even if you don't have immigrants but still have all the subsidies, unemployment benefits, food stamps, etc., your country will collapse anyway.

So, the employer gets put behind bars.

But the employer didn't commit any violence against anyone. You should go after the people who take money by force from the population to provide food stamps, etc. That's the real crime. And when someone commits a crime, you shouldn't punish the innocent; you should punish the guilty. The system that is required to guarantee that every single worker is an American will cost billions and will destroy any shred of privacy left in this country (if there is any).

 

[BuddyRey]

When going to the supermarket, an orange costs $.20 when an illegal alien picked it. However i'm paying a ton of money in taxes because that illegal alien has nine kids in public schools, gets food stamps, women-infant-children subsidies, free medical visits, etc. So, the employer gets put behind bars.

But don't you see? You've made the supporters of laissez faire's point on the issue without even realizing it. We support scrapping these welfare carrots dangling in the faces of migrants, so that those who choose to come here will do so out of a desire to get good jobs and benefit the economy rather than sponging off of government healthcare, food stamps, and the like.

We're actually in agreement on so much here, I feel bad that so many don't see it.

 

[dannno]

note taken. -they argue penalizing employers to be violent; what they forget is that by not penalizing those employers, huge numbers continue to illegally immigrate which steals resources from everyone else (taxes for schools, hospitals, etc.) who play by the rules. This can also be considered "violent".

I don't label myself as an anarchist, I generally advocate for minarchy. I contemplate and can agree that many of the Rothbardian anarcho-capitalism positions are valid, but it is hard for me to say which one is better. However I certainly don't believe in imprisoning people for non-crimes. I don't believe the government should be policing consensual economic activity. When fraud or a crime has been committed against somebody, they report it to the state (less murder, of course), and then the state attempts to mediate. The state doesn't need to be snooping around unless somebody is reported missing. Literally.

Again, the immigration problem is the fault of the government. It's not the fault of the immigrants or those hiring them.

 

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

When going to the supermarket, an orange costs $.20 when an illegal alien picked it. However i'm paying a ton of money in taxes because that illegal alien has nine kids in public schools, gets food stamps, women-infant-children subsidies, free medical visits, etc. So, the employer gets put behind bars.

The business down the road who employs legal citizens sells oranges for $.35 per orange. Since my taxes are lower since illegals no longer come to this country, I can now afford $.35 for that orange.

What line of work are you in? Does it pay more than minimum wage? As a new convert to statism there are a lot of people looking for work and I am very interested in fields that pay more than minimum wage. With the economy being bad, now seems to be a good time to put pressure on some of these higher paying companies with some lower wage paying competition.

 

[FrankRep]

But don't you see? You've made the Voluntaryists' point on the issue without even realizing it. We support scrapping these welfare carrots dangling in the faces of migrants, so that those who choose to come here will do so out of a desire to get good jobs and benefit the economy rather than sponging off of government healthcare, food stamps, and the like.

We're actually in agreement on so much here, I feel bad that so many don't see it.

The American people will not support dumping all the Government Freebies at once. Weening the American public off of Socialism will take many, many years. Meanwhile, right now, the illegal immigrants exploiting the freebie system and that's a critical problem. Secure the border first, then start low process of dismantling the welfare system.

 

[low preference guy]

The American people will not support dumping all the Government Freebies at once. Weening the American public off of Socialism will take many, many years. Meanwhile, the illegal immigrants exploiting the freebie system is a major problem NOW. Secure the border first, then start low process of dismantling the welfare system.

Do you also support jailing or fining employers who hire illegals? Do you want to see people who did not do any aggression against anyone to be punished for the sins of politicians?

 

[someperson]

So let me see if I understand this correctly.

According to this poll the majority of posters on this forum believe that when you are born within a certain "border" you automatically become the property of whomever controls that region/country/state ?

This thread takes Dr. Paul's campaign-time, transitional plan regarding the borders, and redefines it as his absolute position. Any long-time member here who promotes this notion is obviously being disingenuous.

Suggesting that Dr. Paul supports sealed borders, border fences, or protectionism is akin to saying that he supports the Federal Reserve, fractional reserve banking, and fiat currency because he introduced a transitional plan (Free Competition in Currency Act), which legalizes competing currencies instead of directly abolishing the Fed. It's like saying he supports Social Security, ponzi schemes, and the redistribution of wealth because he promotes a transitional plan of redirecting funds from excessive military spending toward it, in an attempt to shore it up.

Watch Clay's video and learn about Dr. Paul's actual goal. Disregard the false dichotomy that is being promoted by the poll, and other such fallacious appeals.

From around 5:55:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWukDvcVAKw&feature=player_embedded

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

The American people will not support dumping all the Government Freebies at once. Weening the American public off of Socialism will take many, many years. Meanwhile, right now, the illegal immigrants exploiting the freebie system and that's a critical problem. Secure the border first, then start low process of dismantling the welfare system.

How is that critical when the illegals take up approximately about 1/10th of the Welfare State and thats a conservative estimate. If you want to stop Socialism, according to your logic, we might as well round up San Francisco, NY, Seattle, and all the large cities who trend heavy socialist and deport them all. Right? I mean, it wasn't 130 million illegals who voted R/D last election was it? Those 60 million illegals who voted for Obama, right?

I don't understand why it is always the Statists who say I don't live in reality, when the truth of the matter that the Statist does not live in reality. It isn't the immigrant who is the cause of the Socialism. It is the goddamn educational system. END COMPULSORY EDUCATION. Until you do that, the battle is much tougher to wade through and it is no fault of the immigrants.

 

[FrankRep]

How is that critical when the illegals take up approximately about 1/10th of the Welfare State and thats a conservative estimate.

Critical problem. Yes.

L.A. Emergency Rooms Full of Illegal Immigrants

77 border state hospitals declare bankruptcy due to illegal immigration

Illegal immigrants are bankrupting our hospitals

It isn't the immigrant who is the cause of the Socialism. It is the goddamn educational system. END COMPULSORY EDUCATION. Until you do that, the battle is much tougher to wade through and it is no fault of the immigrants.

Illegal Immigrants exploit the Socialist System. Karl Marx and his Progressive followers implemented this beast of a system.

I agree with dismantling the Department of Education and getting the Government out of school, but that will take a lot of time and effort to enlighten the American people as to why Government education fails.

 

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

I don't understand why it is always the Statists who say I don't live in reality, when the truth of the matter that the Statist does not live in reality.

Because we live in a Constitutional Republic that is working perfectly and features the best representation free people can elect.

If we don't have the above then the Constitution is a failure and no one wants to admit that. We will keep pretending the Constitution is not a failure until economic realities catch up with government failures. Even when that happens we will sell people on how wonderful constitutional government is despite it is constitutional government that created the collapse.

 

[specsaregood]

If we don't have the above then the Constitution is a failure and no one wants to admit that. We will keep pretending the Constitution is not a failure until economic realities catch up with government failures. Even when that happens we will sell people on how wonderful constitutional government is despite it is constitutional government that created the collapse.

How come I always get the impression in these threads that the people against enforcing immigration laws are doing so because they want the system to collapse completely? Visions of MadMax heroism and shit....

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

How come I always get the impression in these threads that the people against enforcing immigration laws are doing so because they want the system to collapse completely? Visions of MadMax heroism and shit....

Of course it's that. It could never be because we believe in natural rights..

 

[specsaregood]

Of course it's that. It could never be because we believe in natural rights..

That's about what I figured. You won't be happy until the constitutional republic is gone, so why would you support anything aimed at keeping it around? That wouldn't be logical.

 

[low preference guy]

How come I always get the impression in these threads that the people against enforcing immigration laws are doing so because they want the system to collapse completely? Visions of MadMax heroism and shit....

Wanting the system to collapse... doesn't seem smart.

If the awful set of beliefs most Americans held drove us to this situation... why would they magically change once the whole social/economic system collapses? What will most likely happen is that the United States as a whole will ingloriously become a third world country. And stay like that.

A few states will implement smart policies and become successful, just like most third world countries have nice/successful cities to live in. But there won't be massive improvement in the country as a whole, and you might die in the transition.

 

[specsaregood]

Wanting the system to collapse... doesn't seem smart.

I don't think so either; but I don't hold it against somebody if they believe govt is immoral and should abolished then I can understand them wanting to support policies that will help cause it collapse; but be honest about it. Claiming to want completely open borders compounded with the welfare state and ignoring that it will almost assuredly end in a collapse of our constitutional republic isn't completely honest.

 

[charrob]

so get rid of public schools, food stamps, children subsidies, and free medical visits.

well of course illegal immigrants should never get such services; the problem is that most have very large families and these children will grow to be uneducated illiterates and that has a direct negative impact on society and our country to have such a large uneducated underclass. Many of these people are already desperately poor (5 and 6 families living in one-room apartments) because of suppressed wages you are willing to pay them. It is not good for our country as a whole imo. It's turning our country into a 3rd world nation.

stopping them from coming here will not work, because even if you stop them, there are 12,000,000 here already.

If employers are not hiring them, most of those here will go home. (btw: many believe there are actually more than 20 million.)

But the employer didn't commit any violence against anyone.

we see differently on this; imo violence was, and has been, perpetrated on the working poor who have had their wages suppressed because of illegal immigration.

The system that is required to guarantee that every single worker is an American will cost billions and will destroy any shred of privacy left in this country (if there is any).

checking social security numbers?