Ron Paul on Gay Marriage

[tonesforjonesbones]

No sean, music was around long before math was. people were rhythmically banging drums before math was thought of...maybe they were discovering fire, maybe it was a log they were banging on...but it was before math. They were making flutes out of reeds, and singing. tones

 

[tonesforjonesbones]

Music history:

Ancient works of art that have been uncovered show us that music goes back as early as 4000 B.C. But the earliest form of written music with symbols has been traced to the ancient Greeks who used letters of the alphabet to represent musical tones. This music was written down for choruses who sang and for musicians who played early harp and wind instruments.

In medieval times, composers searched for ways to write music so that people could read it and know what to sing or play. Finally, in the 9th century, Neumes were introduced. Neumes were signs placed above the words of a song to show whether the melody should go up or down.

This idea was developed further in the 10th century by an Italian monk and music teacher, Guido d'Arezzo, who wanted a way to write down the religious music of the time. Guido introduced a set of parallel lines and a four-line staff, and named the first six notes of the scale: ut (later renamed do), re, mi, fa, sol, and la. (this is known as solfege)

Music began to be notated as it is today in the 17th century.

Ancient people believed that music held magical powers which directly affected their lives and health!

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Yep, that's pretty much how I learned it back in the day.

Music history:

Ancient works of art that have been uncovered show us that music goes back as early as 4000 B.C. But the earliest form of written music with symbols has been traced to the ancient Greeks who used letters of the alphabet to represent musical tones. This music was written down for choruses who sang and for musicians who played early harp and wind instruments.

In medieval times, composers searched for ways to write music so that people could read it and know what to sing or play. Finally, in the 9th century, Neumes were introduced. Neumes were signs placed above the words of a song to show whether the melody should go up or down.

This idea was developed further in the 10th century by an Italian monk and music teacher, Guido d'Arezzo, who wanted a way to write down the religious music of the time. Guido introduced a set of parallel lines and a four-line staff, and named the first six notes of the scale: ut (later renamed do), re, mi, fa, sol, and la. (this is known as solfege)

Music began to be notated as it is today in the 17th century.

Ancient people believed that music held magical powers which directly affected their lives and health!

 

[therealjjj77]

From my understanding of U.S. history, marriage licenses came about around 1839 and it was believed that if two people of different races wished to marry, it was a privilege for them to do so and not a right. There was a court issue regarding this where a white slave master wished to marry his black slave but had to get a license from the state to do so. The state ruled that intermarriage(marriage between two different races) required permission from the state. I'm not sure how that has led to today but I do understand there were certain incentives for "taxpayers" to have a marriage license so they could receive special tax treatment.

Like with any contract, the product of the contract is within the control of all who are listed as having a vested interest on the contract. So the product(children) are under the jurisdiction of the state if the couple has a marriage license and/or obtained birth certificates for their children. Otherwise the state has no control over the product:

In 1993, parents in Wisconsin became upset, because a test was being administered to their children in the government schools, which was very invasive of the family’s privacy. When parents complained, they were shocked by the school bureaucrats, who informed them that their children were required to take the test by law and that they would have to take the test, because they (the government school) had jurisdiction over their children. When parents asked the bureaucrats what gave them jurisdiction, the bureaucrats answered, "your marriage license and their birth certificates."

Since there is no product(children) of a homosexual marriage, I doubt the state has any interest in being part of the contract. There is no incentive unless they were to charge a fee of some fashion so they had some form of return. However, it may further certain statist's ideals of controlling population by having a greater segment of the population unable to reproduce.

However, Ron Paul is right now, once again, like usual. Govt ought to not be involved in marriage.

 

[SeanEdwards]

No sean, music was around long before math was. people were rhythmically banging drums before math was thought of...maybe they were discovering fire, maybe it was a log they were banging on...but it was before math. They were making flutes out of reeds, and singing. tones

Math existed long before people.

The reeds in those flutes were specific, mathematically correct dimensions, or they would not produce the desired sound. The placement of holes in those flutes obeyed principles of mathematics, or they would sound like shit. The spearchuckers making those flutes may not have been able to formally notate the mathematical relationships or talk about them abstractly, but their brains recognized the underlying mathematical beauty of the sounds produced by a correctly made instrument.

 

[M House]

Music is entirely mathematic, even the improvisation stuff moves around common patterns and principles. You can't change how you do your hearing either it's a log range and you hear the same commonalities throughout. Even people who are "tone" deaf are for the most part not. It would be extremely hard to construct useful speech... listen to the difference in deaf or even partially deaf people and the difficulties they have with certain words and phrases.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Math existed long before people.

The reeds in those flutes were specific, mathematically correct dimensions, or they would not produce the desired sound. The placement of holes in those flutes obeyed principles of mathematics, or they would sound like shit. The spearchuckers making those flutes may not have been able to formally notate the mathematical relationships or talk about them abstractly, but their brains recognized the underlying mathematical beauty of the sounds produced by a correctly made instrument.

You forget untuned percussion and voice, which were the first instruments (when I took musicology, at least).

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Math existed long before people.

The reeds in those flutes were specific, mathematically correct dimensions, or they would not produce the desired sound. The placement of holes in those flutes obeyed principles of mathematics, or they would sound like shit. The spearchuckers making those flutes may not have been able to formally notate the mathematical relationships or talk about them abstractly, but their brains recognized the underlying mathematical beauty of the sounds produced by a correctly made instrument.

Methinks Pythagoras would agree.

 

[Neil Kiernan Stephenson]

I will tell you what is going to happen. If gay people are allowed to marry, they will start forcing churches to perform their marriage ceremonies and if they refuse, they will scream discrimination. This will lead to the shutting down of All churches in the USA. If that happens ..all you atheists can wallow in your immoral filth. I'm so sick of this. The USA is dead as we knew it. Absolutely DEAD. The only thing holding this country together by a thin thread is the Christian patriots who still honor the founders and the constitution. You go ahead a break that up...and you can kiss this country goodbye forever. You will regret it. Tones

I know this is hard for you to accept, but there are plenty of Christians amoung the Neo-cons.

And plenty of non-christians amoung the patriots.

 

[Neil Kiernan Stephenson]

I spent several hours over an entire weekend at home trying to convince my parents not to vote for Prop 8. They went out sign waving with their church and everything.

That is the only argument they have, is that if given fair and equal opportunity, the gay community will just try to take more and more and try to shut down their church. I mean, they're treating it like a battle in WWI where you are talking about fighting over a hill or a few hundred yards of ground, and if we let them take the hill then it's all over, France will belong to Germany.

The only thing I can say is just try to do what's right. If the gay community does come back and fight for their own special privileges, then fight for what is right. Fight for your religions freedom. But don't fight to have the government discriminate against gay people.

The notion that there is some wild conspiracy to shut down churches in the gay community is absurd.

I am a bit more concerned about the conspiracy to use religion as a means to disguise a fascist agenda.

"God told me to invade Iraq"
George Bush

"The war in Iraq is God's war."
Sarah Palin

Let's not forget the clergy response teams dispatched to Hurricane Katrina to use Romans 13 to tell everyone to give up their guns to the government.

 

[Neil Kiernan Stephenson]

Danno, listen to your folks. You know the world government wants to get rid of religion i meant. How many people on this forum would like to see religion, especially Christianity abolished? This is a tool to further hurt Christians and Christianity. Make no mistake, the gays WILL go to the churches and want to be married in there...the ministers will balk, there WILL be lawsuits and discrimination cases by the aclu and gays. It will kill our churches and religious community. You know that the state wants to be seen as the religion. Tones

I would NEVER want to see any religion abolished.

I would also NEVER stand by anyone who wanted to force a pastor/priest to perform a ceremony he agreed with. Freedom of religion and all that.

 

[Neil Kiernan Stephenson]

I don't think it is fair to blame gays for this. I really don't. All kinds of groups have been USED to further this agenda. Take Christians for example. Don't you think that a whole lot of them were duped into following along with the agenda to run America off the dang cliff by supporting attacking and occupying countries who did not attack us? If Christians would have had a backbone and not fallen for this BS, it would have been a lot harder for the neocons to do what they have done over the last 8 plus years.

Just trying to be fair.

Being someone who has a brother involved in the ministry on a nationwide scale I can tell you that is exactly what is happening. The propoganda to identify Islam as Satanism is being used to justify wars in the middle east. We are getting closer and closer to another "Crusade" or "Holy war".

 

[Neil Kiernan Stephenson]

Christian fear mongering at its finest.

The supreme court has already ruled that churches do not have to recognize nor perform gay marriage because they are a private institution. As mush as I hate most christians that I meet, I will always defend their right to pray to jewish santa clause all they want. they can have their private services in private as long as they stop forcing their opinion on others. I believe the bible stated to "go into all the world and preach the gospel" never did I see it say "go into all the world and legislate the gospel." Christians have become so damn lazy that some believe that it is better to use the government to do their job. If he existed, the baby jesus would be very sad.

Also I love how you imply that it is only christians who are patriots and honor the founders. Hate to break it to you but even the founders had atheists involved. Hell, George washington even stated that this government was in no way founded on the christian religion. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.



btw - treaty of tripoli was where GW said that.

*standing ovation*

 

[Neil Kiernan Stephenson]

The fact is that the marxist Fabians got ahold of our education system, government and corporations...so the UsA becomes a little less religious every generation. Eventually they will have what they want, no Christianity...ThEY will be the religion...the state. You shall have your communism...and you atheists, who think it's cool to be such, will be the proletariat...and slaves to the state. Be careful what you ask for...you might get it. I say, you WILL get it under a one world government. Hope you are happy. tones

Ah ok, so now anyone who doesn't want to be Christian must be a communist?

This is getting better and better.

 

[Neil Kiernan Stephenson]

A couple of people already on this post have had their right brains stolen. No matter what, written music is a guideline...the music came FIRST...and someone along the way came up with a mathematical FORMULA to write it down. make no mistake about this...music is right brain and it is NOT math even though you might get the GIST of it by writing it down with symbols representing a part of a "beat". I also majored in music, and I have taught it plenty. Music comes from a totally different space than math..i don't care what your canadian thingy says...sure they used a mathematical formulat to annotate it...but they can not write down quarter tones and note bending which is the very expression of the music from the SOUL..and not from a bunch of notes on a page. RIGHT BRAIN NOT LEFT BRAIN. Haven't you ever known a very well trained musician that can read the S**t off of fly paper, but what they play seems very stiff and sterile? I sure know some. I am well trained in theory...AND jazz theory, modes, and extended and altered chords. Sure , knowing how to read is a useful tool, but it is only a guideline. The music itself, comes from the soul...it's not just about A440. Tones

very nice buddyrae...

I am not Christian.

I do compose my own music. And I write stories, often. I would say my right brain is doing just fine.

 

[Neil Kiernan Stephenson]

No, you've got it all wrong. The musicians are expressing math as sound, without even realizing that they are doing so, in the same way that a person drawing a circle is expressing the number pi without ever taking a geometry class. In the same way that a building looks correctly proportioned, without the observer needing to know anything about the golden ratio.

I'd even go so far as to say that music without math is not music at all, it's just noise. A kid banging on a drum without any rhythm is not music. If that same kid divides time into regular fractions and only bangs the drum at the dividing points of the fractions, then magically there's a beat and you can dance to it.

Intriguing. I actually have a learning disability that involves Math called discalculea but I do write my own music. Weird.

 

[Neil Kiernan Stephenson]

Okay, here goes..

Personally, according to my morals and religious traditions I am very conservative, but politically, it is not fair to assume my way is right.

Why do people not understand that God told us (Christians) to love our neighbor as ourselves, not to judge, and to dang sure not hinder someone's spirit. There is a such thing as understanding without agreeing.. .Why must we assume that just because God stated his rules to us that that was personal permission to push others around?! This really ticks me off.

I am not homosexual, do not associate with anyone who is, so I do not see how someone being gay and wanting the same rights as a human being has anything to do with me.

Funny thing is...people seem to only remember God as this vengeful, judgmental, cold hearted ruler, and completely forget about the parts of the Bible that tell us to live our lives without judging, to love EVERYONE, and to lead people by living humbly and spirited... Every think the reason people hate Christians so much, or want to get rid of our churches is US? Because we are mean, cold, judgmental, assume our way is the only way, damn an unbeliever to Hell, and try to butt into everyone else's business?

Maybe we should all, Christian, Atheist, Jewish, Agnostic, and everyone in between should take a hard look at ourselves and decide if maybe the one thing we are trying to be is the one thing we are farthest from.

Sorry, off rant... you can be as you wish, but just remember we become that which we are surrounded by...to those of you who choose to throw stones and live in glass houses, I hope for your sake, what you become isn't ...::gasp:: gay.

*standing ovation*

 

[LibertyEagle]

Being someone who has a brother involved in the ministry on a nationwide scale I can tell you that is exactly what is happening. The propoganda to identify Islam as Satanism is being used to justify wars in the middle east. We are getting closer and closer to another "Crusade" or "Holy war".

Yes, I agree. It's very sad.

 

[LibertyEagle]

Ah ok, so now anyone who doesn't want to be Christian must be a communist?

This is getting better and better.

I don't think that's what she's saying at all. Our universities, churches, government and media, were long ago infiltrated. It's also true that a strategy of Communism is to destroy religion, so that the people can worship the state. I will tell you, Neil, that I have never in my life seen the venom against Christianity in our nation, as I do now. And to see so much of it in the Ron Paul movement, I find very disturbing. I can only hope that what I've seen on RPF in this regard is not representative of the larger movement. Because if it is, we stand little hope of achieving much of anything at all.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[LibertyEagle]

Indeed. Does that apply for Christians too? Would you speak up for Christians?