Ron Paul on Gay Marriage

Also I love how you imply that it is only christians who are patriots and honor the founders.
I must have missed that. No, of course someone doesn't have to be a Christian to be a patriot. Not at all.

Hate to break it to you but even the founders had atheists involved. Hell, George washington even stated that this government was in no way founded on the christian religion. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

btw - treaty of tripoli was where GW said that.

Don't EVEN!! Are you actually implying that George Washington was an Atheist? Surely not. If you are, you're going to need to do some proving here, bud. Please explain yourself or commence to providing historical references. Thanks. :)

As far as your claim that some of our Founders were Atheists, would you please point me to some historical references that prove your case in that regard?
 
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I don't think that's what she's saying at all. Our universities, churches, government and media, were long ago infiltrated. It's also true that a strategy of Communism is to destroy religion, so that the people can worship the state. I will tell you, Neil, that I have never in my life seen the venom against Christianity in our nation, as I do now. And to see so much of it in the Ron Paul movement, I find very disturbing. I can only hope that what I've seen on RPF in this regard is not representative of the larger movement. Because if it is, we stand little hope of achieving much of anything at all.

Just my 2 cents.

I agree. It's also on the neocon agenda to hijack religion for their nefarious purposes. :( I hope we can all get along better after today.

Hugs all around! :D
 
I don't think that's what she's saying at all. Our universities, churches, government and media, were long ago infiltrated. It's also true that a strategy of Communism is to destroy religion, so that the people can worship the state. I will tell you, Neil, that I have never in my life seen the venom against Christianity in our nation, as I do now. And to see so much of it in the Ron Paul movement, I find very disturbing. I can only hope that what I've seen on RPF in this regard is not representative of the larger movement. Because if it is, we stand little hope of achieving much of anything at all.

Just my 2 cents.

The only venom I see against Christianity is that those of us who are not Christian don't want to fight beside people who are advocating the loss of our civil rights in the name of their God. This is not an unreasonable request.

It was much easier for us to co-exist before Ron Paul "supported" Chuck Baldwin's campaign.

There were always factions within the movement. The Theocrats, the Anarchist/Atheists, the non Atheist Anarchists, the Hardcore Libertarians, the angry Republicans, etc.

I still trace my problems starting when a prevelant member of the grass roots efforts named Steve Martin informed me that Wiccans and people who followed the Native American beliefs were not welcome in the movement because we were satanists whether we would admit it or not. (Even if we don't believe in satan...) and that we would never help to fight Satan's one world government agenda. This prompted a phone call by me to Ron Paul's HQ to ask if this were true, obviously they said no. But back then, Ron Paul had not leaned one way or the other. So we all had our reasons for thinking we belonged in the movement. Unfourtunetly many of these factions thought they were the only REAL movement.

Then Ron Paul's "support" of Chuck Baldwin's campaign happend, and the Theocrats all turned to us and said "See! I TOLD you so!"

I don't hate Christianity, or Christians. I would stand up for their rights as well. That ends when they ask for laws to prevent other people from having rights that they feel only their religion has the right to define.
 
Chuck Baldwin is very pro religious freedom from what I gather reading a few of his articles and listening to his debates. Even though he may be constitutional party and devoutly christian, his opinion on the matter didn't seem to conflict much with Ron Paul at all thus I can see why he went forward with the endorsement. He doesn't take the hard line Christian fundamental approach at all, so why there's some who flocked here cuz of him I don't actually see why they would.
 
I still trace my problems starting when a prevelant member of the grass roots efforts named Steve Martin informed me that Wiccans and people who followed the Native American beliefs were not welcome in the movement because we were satanists whether we would admit it or not. (Even if we don't believe in satan...) and that we would never help to fight Satan's one world government agenda. This prompted a phone call by me to Ron Paul's HQ to ask if this were true, obviously they said no. But back then, Ron Paul had not leaned one way or the other. So we all had our reasons for thinking we belonged in the movement. Unfourtunetly many of these factions thought they were the only REAL movement.
For your information, Mr. Martin got in a lot of hot water over those kind of remarks.

Then Ron Paul's "support" of Chuck Baldwin's campaign happend, and the Theocrats all turned to us and said "See! I TOLD you so!"
Just like with most everything, some did and some did NOT. I voted for Chuck and I don't feel that way at all.

I don't hate Christianity, or Christians. I would stand up for their rights as well. That ends when they ask for laws to prevent other people from having rights that they feel only their religion has the right to define.
Neil, the only problem I have is when people try to rewrite history and keep insisting that our Founders were not Christian. They were Christian and that is a fact. They also believed in religious freedom and that is depicted in our Constitution.

As far as gay marriage is concerned, I thought we'd gone over this already. I think a lot of the problem, at least here on RPF is concerned, is because it has been approached from the perspective of passing a law to sanctify gay marriage. This is in turn would result in laws that dictated to private property owners and businesses. People don't like to be told what to do, Neil. The problem could easily be solved it seems, if we took the stance that government needed to get out of marriage altogether. This is what Ron has said before; that, and return it to churches. Then people can marry who they want and call it whatever they want to call it.
 
Some of the founders were Christian=accurate. Some of the founders were not=accurate. All the statements thrown around of theirs trying prove one way or another on this show really just show a diverse variety of beliefs. Even Chuck Baldwin stated Jefferson wouldn't have been considered a Christian by many in the link provided by Theocrat to prove a point in his case.
 
Some of the founders were Christian=accurate. Some of the founders were not=accurate. All the statements thrown around of theirs trying prove one way or another on this show really just show a diverse variety of beliefs. Even Chuck Baldwin stated Jefferson wouldn't have been considered a Christian by many in the link provided by Theocrat to prove a point in his case.

Jefferson called HIMSELF a Christian. That's good enough for me. It doesn't really matter whether other people call him one or not.

If you think you have proof that our Founders were something other than Christian, besides Paine, please show said proof and include the entire work for context, the date of its publication or writing and a link to or citation of its source.

By the way, there are a number of different flavors of Christianity, thus the differing views that you mention. We have the same thing today -- Methodist, Lutheran, Catholic, Presbyterian, Baptist, etc. It's all Christianity, nonetheless.
 
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Chuck Baldwin is very pro religious freedom from what I gather reading a few of his articles and listening to his debates. Even though he may be constitutional party and devoutly christian, his opinion on the matter didn't seem to conflict much with Ron Paul at all thus I can see why he went forward with the endorsement. He doesn't take the hard line Christian fundamental approach at all, so why there's some who flocked here cuz of him I don't actually see why they would.

The Constitution Party platform that Baldwin says he completely agrees with does not really support that idea.

Not even just on religious freedom either. The CP also believes in a protectionist economical approach, and is pro war on drugs.
 
For your information, Mr. Martin got in a lot of hot water over those kind of remarks.


Just like with most everything, some did and some did NOT. I voted for Chuck and I don't feel that way at all.


Neil, the only problem I have is when people try to rewrite history and keep insisting that our Founders were not Christian. They were Christian and that is a fact. They also believed in religious freedom and that is depicted in our Constitution.

As far as gay marriage is concerned, I thought we'd gone over this already. I think a lot of the problem, at least here on RPF is concerned, is because it has been approached from the perspective of passing a law to sanctify gay marriage. This is in turn would result in laws that dictated to private property owners and businesses. People don't like to be told what to do, Neil. The problem could easily be solved it seems, if we took the stance that government needed to get out of marriage altogether. This is what Ron has said before; that, and return it to churches. Then people can marry who they want and call it whatever they want to call it.

Question about this:
For your information, Mr. Martin got in a lot of hot water over those kind of remarks.

What kind of hot water? And from whom?

And the issue of re-writing history comes up when people try to claim that the United States was meant to be a Christian nation. I don't deny that some of the founding fathers were Christian. But the abscence of laws respecting religion in the Constitution is not an accident at all. The Constitution Party platform's stance that the Constitution is an extsension of biblical law is a perfect example of this re-writing of history.

When they say they don't want gays to be allowed to marry, they don't site private property rights, or employers, etc. They claim that their religion alone has the monopoly on the marriage institution and it's definition, and that no government can honor any marriage contrary to their god's defintion. Before you dismiss this, consider the precedent it sets. What would be next? What else can we say "Well, the founding fathers were all Christian, so therefore we should not let the Constitution define this thing contrary to our religion, or that thing contrary to our religion...and freedom of religion obviously meant the freedom to be CHRISTIAN! Well duh! All other religions are just Satan after all...so we should ban those. While were at it, let's force our religion back into the public school system. (Yep, that's in their platform too) about? How many more biblical principles need to become law on the grounds that the founding fathers were Christian? Who's intrepetation of them will we be using?

When they say they want to ban profanity, they go on a huge tirade about what they feel is against their religion about profanity and pornography. They even state that the FIRST AMENDMENT gives them the right to ban speech and determine what is speech and what is not! They state that since sex was created by God, they should have the power to legislate that as well.

They oppose suicide even for medical reasons, and call upon the government to continue to make anything illegal they feel is contradictory to their religious practices. Some of these nutjobs even think that Homosexuals should be executed.

These people re-write history when they fail to remember that during the time period when the Constitution was being drafted, the founders specifically did not want religion in it, as the various Christian sects were committing acts of violence and sometimes outright murder on one another, and using the state to help them do it as often as possible.

And they even violate their own religious practices when they try to deny free will to people to decide if they will live a Christian life style or not.

What kind of trouble did Steve Martin get into? I would be very interested to know. That argument went on for pages and pages on a message board where that sort of thing generally doesn't happen.
 
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Jefferson called HIMSELF a Christian. That's good enough for me. It doesn't really matter whether other people call him one or not..

Yep, and that Christian was the biggest proponent of Seperation of Church and State, and making it abundantly clear that religion should never find it's way into law.


By the way, there are a number of different flavors of Christianity, thus the differing views that you mention. We have the same thing today -- Methodist, Lutheran, Catholic, Presbyterian, Baptist, etc. It's all Christianity, nonetheless.

Another reason why a theocracy in the United States would be an absurd failure. If they got their way and we started using the Bible to intrepet the Constitution, I can just imagine the wonderful debates that would happen next. Lets not forget that many of those divisions of Christianity think they are the one and only true faith. In fact, the infighting that sometimes became outright war between these factions was of such epic proportions that I can think of few better reasons to simply keep religion out of the government altogether. I wonder which Christianity would dominate in Theocrat's world? Who would get to be part of the ruling elite of his version of god's soldiers? Who would be told that their version of Christianity was illegal?

This is the slippery slope. There is good in the Bible, there is also some outright barbarity. The notion that there are people out there that still believe we should execute homosexuals because of their religion would be the absolute biggest reason for Seperation of Church and State for all time.
 
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Look dude...what's with your obsessive / compulsiveness with the gay marriage issue? Pick a new topic already. Your ilk is the reason I left the LP. What are ya'll? Controlled Opposition ? You want a lassiz faire , no moral society..well you're GETTING IT...your dang government has run amok....no morals...isn't that what you want? now the courts want rid of juries...so the people can't have the final say...your type are promoting this . If you don't have a moral society you won't get moral judges or politicians...and you are NOT going to like it..nope. Say bye bye to your freedom. Tones
 
Look dude...what's with your obsessive / compulsiveness with the gay marriage issue? Pick a new topic already. Your ilk is the reason I left the LP. What are ya'll? Controlled Opposition ? You want a lassiz faire , no moral society..well you're GETTING IT...your dang government has run amok....no morals...isn't that what you want? now the courts want rid of juries...so the people can't have the final say...your type are promoting this . If you don't have a moral society you won't get moral judges or politicians...and you are NOT going to like it..nope. Say bye bye to your freedom. Tones

I don't think advocates for laissez-faire are all against morals. Bastiat certainly wasn't. It is in itself a moral code. Some people are trying to hijack the philosophy, like every other good one has been hijacked. :(:mad::p
 
Look dude...what's with your obsessive / compulsiveness with the gay marriage issue? Pick a new topic already. Your ilk is the reason I left the LP. What are ya'll? Controlled Opposition ? You want a lassiz faire , no moral society..well you're GETTING IT...your dang government has run amok....no morals...isn't that what you want? now the courts want rid of juries...so the people can't have the final say...your type are promoting this . If you don't have a moral society you won't get moral judges or politicians...and you are NOT going to like it..nope. Say bye bye to your freedom. Tones

Ok, so unless I allow you to use your religion to hinder the freedom of others, my freedom will go bye bye?

That makes perfect sense. I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter...

You would call me obsessed, but you can't seem to resist the urge to post a rebuttal can you? Yep, I am obsessed with freedom. Guilty as charged.
 
I don't think advocates for laissez-faire are all against morals. Bastiat certainly wasn't. It is in itself a moral code. Some people are trying to hijack the philosophy, like every other good one has been hijacked. :(:mad::p

It is IMMORAL to force your religious beliefs onto others.

That's how Jefferson felt. That's good enough for me.
 
Look dude...what's with your obsessive / compulsiveness with the gay marriage issue? Pick a new topic already. Your ilk is the reason I left the LP. What are ya'll? Controlled Opposition ? You want a lassiz faire , no moral society..well you're GETTING IT...your dang government has run amok....no morals...isn't that what you want? now the courts want rid of juries...so the people can't have the final say...your type are promoting this . If you don't have a moral society you won't get moral judges or politicians...and you are NOT going to like it..nope. Say bye bye to your freedom. Tones

Oh, another thing, are you even capable of having a debate about the points I am making? So far all I have heard from you is silly conspiracy theories about Gay people being rallied by their victory for equal rights to do what they want to with other consenting adults feeling that the next logical step would be to burn down churches.

Do you have any real debate to make? You constantly resort to Ad Hominem and accuse me of hating Christians, or somehow being controlled opposition (By preaching true freedom...that's the best part I think) I constantly clarify that is not the case.

This is one of the biggest reasons for seperation of church and state, the sheer irrationality of fanatics has no place in the law.
 
After all of the posts from befranklin...you are still stuck on this non existant "separation of church and state" nonsense. grab a clue...what you want is the demise of Christianity in the USA...and an immoral socity...we will continue to fight that. tones
 
After all of the posts from befranklin...you are still stuck on this non existant "separation of church and state" nonsense. grab a clue...what you want is the demise of Christianity in the USA...and an immoral socity...we will continue to fight that. tones

I don't know that a demise of institutional Christianity would lead to an "immoral society". Another option would be that Christians would study the gospels-gnostic and canonized-and discover it for themselves instead of being spoon fed. America is unique in that it at one time emphasized personal freedom, so it can't really be exactly compared to previous nations. (IMHO) Some churches operate on a shoestring budget in schools and public buildings. It's possible that churches could do better if they weren't subsidized by the State.

Just some thoughts, FWIW.

TTYL, Tones. ~hugs~
 
IIt's possible that churches could do better if they weren't subsidized by the State.

Being tax-exempt does not exactly equate to being "subsidized by the State". :rolleyes:

If churches are considered to be subsidized by the State, then it would follow that anyone who paid less taxes than another was also "subsidized", along with tax protestors, etc.

Now, the reason I think the churches should turn down this tax exempt thing, is because by signing up for this, the church has opened the door for the government to dictate to them. I personally don't think it's worth it.

I don't know that a demise of institutional Christianity would lead to an "immoral society". Another option would be that Christians would study the gospels-gnostic and canonized-and discover it for themselves instead of being spoon fed.
I do see a few here being "spoon fed", but it's not the Christians whom you like to bash so much. ;)

I wouldn't be so anxious if I were you to shove Christianity and Christians out the door. Aw heck, why not, America and those in it deserve the fate that has been plotted for them by the one-worlders. You will have a religion. It will be the state and the secular Humanism created years ago by the socialists whom you claim to hate. But, so many don't seem to realize that they are falling right into the hands of those same people. w/e. I'm tired of fighting this BS.
 
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