Ron Paul a liar

This is a point that really needs to be clarified, or the Anti-Paul folks are going to start pointing to this article to skewer the good doctor just as he's picking up momentum.

The Paul campaign should IMMEDIATELY hire a team of CPAs, tax professionals, and perhaps some kind of independent public policy expert to argue "reasonable" levels of expenditure for each department/program that remains intact under an RP administration. This team needs to pour over the data cited in the article to come up with SPECIFIC NUMBERS to back up RP's position on the federal income tax.

We cannot and should not ignore this. This article and the thought process that it represents (LOL RON PAUL THINKS IT'S 1807) needs to be killed before it start circulating.

It may be a lot of money to spend for a small report, but this issue is huge for RP and has the potential to totally kill him if left unaddressed.

Edit: I guess my point is, we gave you the money, now use it, god damnit. People have it ingrained in their minds that the IRS and the federal income tax are immutable facts of life. We're fighting a huge uphill battle here. We need conclusive proof that the numbers work out favorably under a Ron Paul administration.

If we lose the primary, I very strongly suspect it will be as a result of being unable to convince the electorate on this issue.
 
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I'd imagine we could debate the finer points of cragginess for a good long while and not make a lot of progress. I think it's kind of a fun word and I can picture a bored staff writer typing out the phrase "craggy visage of their hero" with just the faintest smile on their face.

I consider it harmless, and you, if I'm not mistaken, consider it significant enough that the campaign should never associate with the paper again? Surely not.


I was mostly being a jerk when I wrote that. Not terribly helpful, agreed.


Well, I said something about "distasteful," though it doesn't strike me as much of a stretch. And, my primary problem with what you wrote is that it certainly seemed that you were arguing precisely what you say you weren't - that the campaign should just have nothing to do with the WP forevermore.


I'm not fan of the MSM, that's for certain, but as Donald Rumsfeld might say (no doubt lots of his fans hang out here), the campaign works with the mainstream media it has, not the mainstream media it wants.

This guy issued a public request for clarification, and then even posted the campaign's whole response verbatim. That's remarkably fair. Yeah, he mocked them a little. I mocked them a little too.

The claim that the Federal government can be run without income tax is, certainly in our present political climate, an extraordinary one. I think Dr. Paul can substantiate it, at least in a long term plan. If anything I remain shocked that there isn't a stock one-pager that the campaign can just fire off to anyone who asks. This is, after all, a central issue to the campaign.

At this point I'm mostly restating my above post, so I think we'll have to accept that we disagree on the possible significance of the article. I will say that gaining a bit of goodwill on the part of just about any WP staff member is almost certainly not harmful, and we really don't know if this will be the topic where the "fact checker" column gains enough interest to make it to the print edition.
Thanks for your fair post. Note, I'm not arguing about the specifics of the issue just the presentation. I'd agree the campaign could do better here but then again, they'd be more wise to not listen to me at all since I don't know the first thing about running a campaign (see opinion on dealing with the WP ;)). Dr. Paul first wrote about this IRS/2000 level spending issue in 2006 IIRC, I found it interesting and tried to check the numbers then but couldn't get them right, so yeah, I'd be interested to see how they came to that figure... not that it changes if the IRS should be phased out. :)
 
Is Ron Paul a Liar?

Is Ron Paul a Liar?
An Answer to the “Fact Checker”

By Mitchell Gray

Recently Michael Dobbs, the so-called “Fact Checker”, writing for the Washington Post wrote a blog about Rep. Dr. Ron Paul’s stance on eliminating the federal income tax. Mr. Dobbs has made the claim that Dr. Paul is essentially a liar. While I do not speak for the Paul campaign I should like to lend my hand at this budgetary quandary.

Dr. Paul has claimed that if we eliminated the federal income tax we would still be left with roughly the same revenue we had in 2000. Mr. Dobbs disagrees stating that “Without the revenues from individual income tax, the federal budget would shrink to the size it was in the early 1990s, not the year 2000.” But is that really true? Let’s take a look.

According to the Treasury Departments Final Monthly Treasury Statement for September 2000 total tax receipts were just over $2 trillion ($2,025,038 million) which includes the income tax, Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid and other taxes. Total revenue for FY2007 was over $2.5 trillion ($2,567,671 million) with total outlays of $2.7 trillion. If one was to take away the nearly $1.2 trillion raised through the income tax in 2007 that would leave adjusted receipts of $1.4 trillion. On the surface, it looks as though Dr. Paul is indeed wrong. Except for the fact that we had $237 billion surplus in FY2000 meaning that Dr. Paul’s numbers are about $380 billion short of what the government generated in 2000. Now $380 billion sounds like a lot of money but with a 2008 budget approaching $3 trillion that really isn’t that much.

However, if one looks at current spending we would indeed be shy about $1.4 trillion if we eliminated the income tax tomorrow. Mr. Dobbs wants his readers to believe that if Dr. Paul were to become President he would shut down the IRS and the income tax the very next day. That would really mess things up for the government. Fortunately for us Dr. Paul has no plans of eliminating the income tax right away. Dr. Paul’s income tax elimination plan makes a lot of sense. Start cutting spending and rolling back entitlement programs to reduce cost and thus you can reduce taxes. Dr. Paul has written that “the real issue is total spending by government, not tax reform. In other words, why change the tax structure if spending stays the same? Once we accept that the federal government needs $2.7 trillion from us-- and more each year-- the only question left is from whom it will be collected. Until the federal government is held to its proper constitutionally limited functions, tax reform will remain a mirage.”

If we eliminated the income tax tomorrow that would leave the federal government with a $1.4 trillion budget deficit. Where do we get the other $1.4 trillion that Mr. Dobbs feels the government needs? I have a better question: Why does the federal government NEED another $1.4 trillion? Total spending in 1998 was only $1.6 trillion. Remember way back in 1998 when we were still talking about tax cuts because the government was spending too much of our money? Now here we are just nine years later and the government is spending over $1.1 trillion MORE of our money! Is there really any reason why we can’t go back to 1998 levels of spending?

One way we can do that is just how Dr. Paul suggest – cut spending! If we were to reduce the spending or even eliminate much of the federal government we could reach the goal of eliminating the income tax. By bring our troops home, not just from Iraq and Afghanistan, but from Japan, Germany, South Korea, Taiwan and other parts of the world we would save billions of dollars. As Mr. Dobbs points out just leaving Iraq and Afghanistan would save us $122 billion or more every year.

If our leaders in Congress would just read the Constitution, the thing they have sworn to defend and protect, we could start eliminating much of the unconstitutional agencies and departments of the federal government. By eliminating the Departments of Agriculture, Commerce, Energy, Housing and Urban Development, Interior, Labor, Transportation, the EPA, the International Assistance Program and the Small Business Administration we’d cut some $378 billion from the budget. Then by allowing people to opt out of Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security and allowing them to save and invest that money themselves, rolling back entitlement spending, we could trim the size of the government even more.

Mr. Dobbs has attempted to paint Dr. Paul a liar without taking into account Dr. Paul’s total solution to our problems. Dr. Paul would indeed eliminate the income tax tomorrow if he could but understands that we must first start cutting spending and eliminating wasteful programs and agencies.

Mr. Dobbs is partially right. Paul’s numbers don’t add up but we have to include his inclusive plan of trimming the governmental budget. Once we all realize that the federal government does not need $3 trillion like it says it does for FY2008 then we can start making some serious changes.

Dr. Paul’s plan to eliminate the income tax would also benefit all Americans because over $1 trillion would no longer be stolen and wasted in the government. Let’s just think about this for a second: If the federal government was no longer taking over $1 trillion a year from all Americans in taxes what benefits would that bring to the economy? Think about what you’d do with all of the money currently being taken from your paycheck every month. This infusion of capital into the economy would provide an economic stimulus like nothing we’ve ever seen before. More people could save, buy new cars, buy electronics, take vacations or simply purchase health insurance for their family. Jobs would be created, wealth would be created and the economy and America as a whole would be much better off. Not to mention that the increased spending would mean an increase in tax revenue for the government which would offset the supposed deficit Mr. Dobbs envisions.

Sources:
Four Pinocchios for Ron Paul, By Michael Dobbs
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/

Final Monthly Treasury Statement, Sept. 2000
http://fms.treas.gov/mts/mts0900.pdf

Final Monthly Treasury Statement, Sept. 2007
http://fms.treas.gov/mts/mts0907.pdf

Final Monthly Treasury Statement, Sept. 1998
http://fms.treas.gov/mts/mts0998.pdf

Taxes, Spending, and Debt are the Real Issues, Ron Paul, Oct. 16, 2006
http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2006/tst101606.htm
 
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You won't find it. I wrote it. This was the first place I posted it. I'm trying to find someone that will publish it right now.
 
You won't find it. I wrote it.

Hah. I thought you were this guy:

"Mitchell Gray has a BA and JD from the University of Oklahoma as well as three years of Arabic Language study. He served as a JAG officer in the Oklahoma National Guard during Operation Desert Storm. Mr. Gray is an immigration attorney who was widely quoted after 9-11 in newspapers such as the Washington Post concerning Immigration Law and Moussaoui's roommate at the University of Oklahoma, Hussein Al-Attas.

Mr. Gray has studied Arabic, the Middle East and domestic terrorism for many years. He is exceptionally knowledgeable about Middle Eastern connections to the OKC bombing case.
"
 
You won't find it. I wrote it. This was the first place I posted it. I'm trying to find someone that will publish it right now.


Nicely Done, Sir.

I spent part of my evening refuting Mona. It is good to see others fighting the good fight.
 
Hah. I thought you were this guy:

"Mitchell Gray has a BA and JD from the University of Oklahoma as well as three years of Arabic Language study. He served as a JAG officer in the Oklahoma National Guard during Operation Desert Storm. Mr. Gray is an immigration attorney who was widely quoted after 9-11 in newspapers such as the Washington Post concerning Immigration Law and Moussaoui's roommate at the University of Oklahoma, Hussein Al-Attas.

Mr. Gray has studied Arabic, the Middle East and domestic terrorism for many years. He is exceptionally knowledgeable about Middle Eastern connections to the OKC bombing case.
"

HA! I wish! I've got a high school education, have studied English and ain't quite got it down, earned me three credits at a community college after three semesters and work in a liquor store. The only thing I've studied extensively (other than the female anatomy) is the Constitution and the ideas of liberty. Far as I'm concerned that's good enough for me.
 

Here is exactly the email I sent:

Michael Dobbs, I found your "fact check" to be interesting, so I decided to double-check your fact-checking regarding the Ron Paul article you wrote at http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2007/11/four_pinocchios_for_ron_paul.html. I found it to be somewhat irresponsible and entirely incorrect. Here are the relevant portions of what Ron Paul said during the interview that you cite as Ron Paul lies (from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0KwY9Uzqtk):

Paul: "I would save billions... if not hundreds of billions of dollars maintaining our empire around the world."
Paul: "I'd have enough money to cut our defecit."

Lets stop there, becaues your nose just grew longer, Michael Dobbs, for claiming to be checking facts. You are not checking facts at all, but implications. You fudged up your words by essentially shoving the $1.2 trillion figure down Paul's throat. If I were your mother, I'd have you write "Ron Paul said he would save billions... if not hundreds of billions." about 100 times. Now that we have the actual claim covered, lets move on.

Leno: "Now, I know you also want to do away with (abolishing) the IRS is that correct."
Paul: "Yeah, thats a good idea."
Leno: "How do you do that?"
(snip)
Paul: "If you got rid of the income tax... about 40% (of government revenues would be cut)"
Paul: "If you got rid of the income tax you'd still have enough revenues to have about equivelant to what we had in the Year 2000."

That ends the interview, and begins the related website statement. Here is the actual Ron Paul quote from the link you provided:

Dr. Paul: "Even today, individual income taxes account for only approximately one-third of federal revenue."

Now, looking at the facts (not implications you pretend are facts) its clear that Ron Paul thinks that federal revenues from income tax are "about 40%" which he also describes as "about a third". These are the quotes, yet despite this you chose to shove the term "33%" down Ron Paul's throat. The "about 40%" and "about a third" may be a stretch by by no means does it amount to a lie.

So what you are left with is zero long noses for Paul.

Now, I'm going to run a fact-check on your article. Here are some facts of yours I want to check:
"For financial year 2007, total receipts from individual income tax were in the region of $1.1 trillion dollars. If you eliminated all that revenue, the federal budget would shrink to the size it was around 1995."

I checked your facts and its nice to see one of them checked out. You are right that income tax is about 1.1 trillion in 2007. But Michael, if you eliminate 1.1 trillion from a 2.8 Trillion budget, you are left with 1.7 trillion. In 1999, the budget was about 1.7 trillion. In the year 2000, the spending was 1.789 trillion. On the other hand, in 1995, the budget was about 1.5 trillion. Your facts don't check out, Mike! And unlike you I'm only checking your facts and not your implications. Because after all, the point of a fact-checking session is to check facts, not implications.

Citations of my fact-checking on you for the spending figures:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget,_2007
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/year1995_0.html#usgs302a

I won't assign you a specific number of long noses but I'll ask you to check facts instead of implications and also to be more careful in your fact checking process. Personally I can't say I'll ever believe another one of your "fact-check" stories.

Regards,
James
 
Summary of the really long post I just made:
1. Ron Paul on the Leno show said he wanted save "billions... if not hundreds of billions". He never in fact claimed he will cut $1.2 trillion in spending on the Leno Show. That is a Michael Dobbs lie. Lie #1.

2. Ron Paul claimed that income tax was "about a third" and "about 40%" of federal revenue. Ron Paul never claimed it was "33%". Michael Dobbs lie #2.

3. Ron Paul did in fact claim that if we eliminate income tax we are left with year 2000 level government spending on several occasions. Michael Dobbs said it is actually 1995 levels. Well, wrong. Like Ron Paul says, it is approximately 2000 levels just as Paul claims. Michael Dobbs lie#3.

3x long noses for Dobbs, none for Paul.
 
I just called the campaign to voice my concern on this one. In my opinion, it's critical to thoroughly rebut this article before it gains momentum and starts getting cited by other bloggers and journalists.

I'm worried I wasn't quite articulate enough in describing the issue over the phone, but I'm told I'll get a call or e-mail back on the matter...so maybe I can clarify then.

Anyway. I think I've posted this before, but RP needs to use a chunk of the money we've given him and fund a report by some finance pros supporting his position. That way we can have a nice, canned reply whenever people try to call RP "kooky" for his arguments against the federal income tax.
 
I just called the campaign to voice my concern on this one. In my opinion, it's critical to thoroughly rebut this article before it gains momentum and starts getting cited by other bloggers and journalists.

I'm worried I wasn't quite articulate enough in describing the issue over the phone, but I'm told I'll get a call or e-mail back on the matter...so maybe I can clarify then.

Anyway. I think I've posted this before, but RP needs to use a chunk of the money we've given him and fund a report by some finance pros supporting his position. That way we can have a nice, canned reply whenever people try to call RP "kooky" for his arguments against the federal income tax.

I've been emailing the so-called fact-checker every day. Here is my latest revision:

Please correct immediately your incorrect article. I decided to double-check your fact-checking regarding the Ron Paul article you wrote at http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2007/11/four_pinocchios_for_ron_paul.html. Here are the relevant portions of what Ron Paul said during the interview that you cite as Ron Paul lies (from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0KwY9Uzqtk):

Paul: "I would save billions... if not hundreds of billions of dollars maintaining our empire around the world."
Paul: "I'd have enough money to cut our defecit."

The "billions" figure is a fact, but the "1.2 Trillion Savings" figure is just an implication. You are not checking facts at all, but implications. It would appear Paul expects to save billions. You fudged up your words by essentially shoving the $1.2 trillion figure down Paul's throat. If I were your mother, I'd have you write "Ron Paul said he would save billions... if not hundreds of billions." about 100 times. Now that we have the actual claim covered, lets move on.

Leno: "Now, I know you also want to do away with (abolishing) the IRS is that correct."
Paul: "Yeah, thats a good idea."
Leno: "How do you do that?"
[snip]
Paul: "If you got rid of the income tax... about 40% (of government revenues would be cut)"
Paul: "If you got rid of the income tax you'd still have enough revenues to have about equivelant to what we had in the Year 2000."

That ends the interview, and begins the related website statement. Here is the actual Ron Paul quote from the link you provided:

Dr. Paul: "Even today, individual income taxes account for only approximately one-third of federal revenue."

Based on the actual facts (and not implications) Ron Paul thinks that federal revenues from income tax are "about 40%" which he also describes as "about a third". These are the quotes, yet despite this you chose to shove the term "33%" down Ron Paul's throat. The "about 40%" and "about a third" may be a stretch by by no means does it amount to a lie. To me its obvious that he was saying approximately because he didn't have the exact number on hand. Yet even if that isn't obvious, you should at least give him the benefit of the doubt.

Here are some facts you stated that I double-checked:
"For financial year 2007, total receipts from individual income tax were in the region of $1.1 trillion dollars. If you eliminated all that revenue, the federal budget would shrink to the size it was around 1995."

You are right that income tax will be about 1.1 trillion in 2007. But Michael, if you eliminate 1.1 trillion from a 2.8 Trillion budget, you are left with 1.7 trillion. In 1999, the budget was about 1.7 trillion. In the year 2000, the spending was 1.789 trillion. On the other hand, in 1995, the budget was about 1.5 trillion. Your facts don't check out, Mike!

Citations of my fact-checking on you for the spending figures:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget,_2007
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/year1995_0.html#usgs302a

I won't assign you a specific number of long noses but I'll ask you to check facts instead of implications and also to be more careful in your fact checking process. Personally I can't say I'll ever believe another one of your "fact-check" stories.
 
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What bugs me is just that it does seem there's a bit of handwaving going on. I trust RP to be correct in his argument -- being in his 10th term in congress, he's well acquainted with the waste of the federal government -- but the campaign is totally able to produce hard numbers here, and I'd like to see something concrete is all.
 
driller

The numbers that matter are 9 trillion overdrawn. The government is overspending drastically. If someone doesn't stop this, it has to crash. Ron Paul has acknowledged the problem and has good ideas about how to bring it under control. I believe many people are afraid that if the government doesn't protect them, doesn't cover there health care, doesn't pay welfare, social security, and insure every other part of their lives, that they cannot make it. But, what cannot happen is that we cannot continue to operate overdrawn, and Ron Paul is the only candidate with enough courage to acknowledge this and attempt the very unpopular task of fixing it. Come on people, let go of the government's tit and return to the strong independent stock that originally made this country great!!
 
My latest revision:

Please correct immediately your incorrect article. I decided to double-check your fact-checking regarding the Ron Paul article you wrote at http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2007/11/four_pinocchios_for_ron_paul.html. Here are the relevant portions of what Ron Paul said during the interview that you cite as Ron Paul lies (from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0KwY9Uzqtk):

Paul: "I would save billions... if not hundreds of billions of dollars maintaining our empire around the world."
Paul: "I'd have enough money to cut our defecit."

The "billions" figure is a fact, but the "1.2 Trillion Savings" figure is just an implication. You are not checking facts at all, but implications. It would appear Paul expects to save billions. You fudged up your words by essentially shoving the $1.2 trillion figure down Paul's throat. Now that we have the actual claim covered, lets move on.

Leno: "Now, I know you also want to do away with (abolishing) the IRS is that correct."
Paul: "Yeah, thats a good idea."
Leno: "How do you do that?"
[snip]
Paul: "If you got rid of the income tax... about 40% (of government revenues would be cut)"
Paul: "If you got rid of the income tax you'd still have enough revenues to have about equivelant to what we had in the Year 2000."

That ends the interview, and begins the related website statement. Here is the actual Ron Paul quote from the link you provided:

Dr. Paul: "Even today, individual income taxes account for only approximately one-third of federal revenue."

Based on the actual facts Ron Paul thinks that federal revenues from income tax are "about 40%" which he also describes as "about a third". These are the quotes, yet despite this you chose to shove the term "33%" down Ron Paul's throat. The "about 40%" and "about a third" may be a stretch by by no means does it amount to a lie. To me its obvious that he was saying approximately because he didn't have the exact number on hand. Why do you refuse Ron Paul not get the benefit of the doubt?

Here are some facts you stated that I double-checked:
"For financial year 2007, total receipts from individual income tax were in the region of $1.1 trillion dollars. If you eliminated all that revenue, the federal budget would shrink to the size it was around 1995."

You are right that income tax will be about 1.1 trillion in 2007. But Michael, if you eliminate 1.1 trillion from a 2.8 Trillion budget, you are left with 1.7 trillion. In 1999, the budget was about 1.7 trillion. In the year 2000, the spending was 1.789 trillion. On the other hand, in 1995, the budget was about 1.5 trillion. Your facts don't check out, Mike! Just like Ron Paul says, if we cut off the income tax then we drop spending to about year 2000 levels. You need to re-think your math on this because it does not add up correctly.

Citations of my fact-checking on you for the spending figures:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget,_2007
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/year1995_0.html#usgs302a

Michael, please immediately revise your article to reflect the actual facts.
 
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