Revelation

[seapilot]

I was talking with a friend of the family and we got into the conversation of Israel, middle east, Iran, Islamic fundamentalists etc. I have never debated a evangelical Christian about this, I never mentioned Ron Paul Foreign policy, only debating why he felt necessary to have war in the middle east.


He is a futurist believer about revelation. He brought up its in the Bible under revelation where it is written that Israel will come back, which it has in a way and evil forces will destroy the Islamic temple in Jeruseluem and after that Jesus will come back as a warrior with a sword to save us all and show us the way to a utopia. If this is what many believe then it seems they want war in the middle east so Jesus will return.

He believes that there is evil in the world and it is the islamic fundamentalists that want to kill us, and that is why 911 happened. I tried to use logic and said the US had bases there, but he looks at the world in a different view than I do. I tried to explain common sense about Iran wanting to defend themselves, that we need peace not war, but he said the Islamist fundamentalist do not want peace but to spread sharia law throughout the world and even if we practiced peace they would still try to kill us to obtain their goals.

Is there anyway to get through to this kind of person to make them understand or is it impossible because their deep faith and beliefs in the written word of the bible? If this is the way so many evangelicals are no wonder Ron Paul is getting written off for not being an israel firster.

 

[Nate-ForLiberty]

Well first you need to understand that you both are having two different conversations. You have to go to him.

A chocolate chip cookie is a wonderful thing, but you can't eat it with a spoon. Before a chocolate chip cookie is a chocolate chip cookie you have to use a spoon to scoop the cookie dough onto the oven tray.

 

[pcosmar]

I was talking with a friend of the family and we got into the conversation of Israel, middle east, Iran, Islamic fundamentalists etc. I have never debated a evangelical Christian about this, I never mentioned Ron Paul Foreign policy, only debating why he felt necessary to have war in the middle east.

He brought up its in the Bible under revelation where it is written that Israel will come back, which it has in a way and evil forces will destroy the Islamic temple in Jeruseluem and after that Jesus will come back as a warrior with a sword to save us all and show us the way to a utopia. Is this true? I can not debate logic with religion it does not seem to work.

He believes that there is evil in the world and it is the islamic fundamentalists that want to kill us, and that is why 911 happened. I tried to use logic and said the US had bases there, but he looks at the world in a different view than I do. I tried to explain common sense about Iran wanting to defend themselves, that we need peace not war, but he said the Islamist fundamentalist do not want peace but to spread sharia law throughout the world and even if we practiced peace they would still try to kill us to obtain their goals.

Is there anyway to get through to this kind of person to make them understand or is it impossible because their deep faith and beliefs in the written word of the bible? If this is the way so many evangelicals are no wonder Ron Paul is getting written off for not being an israel firster.

It is clear that your friend is confused or you somehow misheard. It is very possible that he IS confused and a victim of a lot of bad teaching common in some churches.

The only way to discuss this with him would be with a good understanding of both the Bible and History.

 

[seapilot]

Yes that is the way it felt that we were in two different worlds. I was using logic and reasoning and he was using biblical prophecies. I admit that I do not know enough of bible history to help him understand, only political history.

 

[Nate-ForLiberty]

Yes that is the way it felt that we were in two different worlds. I was using logic and reasoning and he was using biblical prophecies. I admit that I do not know enough of bible history to help him understand, only political history.

Then don't push too hard because you won't do any good and will most likely do harm to your cause. Find someone else to work on. You are not personally responsible for waking up every person you meet.


*The other option is to start learning about biblical prophecy (which is fascinating).

 

[Travlyr]

I was talking with a friend of the family and we got into the conversation of Israel, middle east, Iran, Islamic fundamentalists etc. I have never debated a evangelical Christian about this, I never mentioned Ron Paul Foreign policy, only debating why he felt necessary to have war in the middle east.

He brought up its in the Bible under revelation where it is written that Israel will come back, which it has in a way and evil forces will destroy the Islamic temple in Jeruseluem and after that Jesus will come back as a warrior with a sword to save us all and show us the way to a utopia. Is this true? I can not debate logic with religion it does not seem to work.

He believes that there is evil in the world and it is the islamic fundamentalists that want to kill us, and that is why 911 happened. I tried to use logic and said the US had bases there, but he looks at the world in a different view than I do. I tried to explain common sense about Iran wanting to defend themselves, that we need peace not war, but he said the Islamist fundamentalist do not want peace but to spread sharia law throughout the world and even if we practiced peace they would still try to kill us to obtain their goals.

Is there anyway to get through to this kind of person to make them understand or is it impossible because their deep faith and beliefs in the written word of the bible? If this is the way so many evangelicals are no wonder Ron Paul is getting written off for not being an israel firster.

It's tough. That is God's word.

Our job is to explain to people over and over and over again that irredeemable paper money by governments is debasement of currency. Debasement of currency has always paid the ruling class handsomely at the expense of the people. Once the counterfeiters get their hands on the people's wealth then they create a war economy because sound money and the economic consequences of peace devastate the power of the ruling class.

"By this means government may secretly and unobserved, confiscate the wealth of the people, and not one man in a million will detect the theft." - Lord John Maynard Keynes, "Economic Consequences of Peace"

 

[seapilot]

Then don't push too hard because you won't do any good and will most likely do harm to your cause. Find someone else to work on. You are not personally responsible for waking up every person you meet.


*The other option is to start learning about biblical prophecy (which is fascinating).

I came to that conclusion right away when a potential WW3 scenario did not seem to bother him much. The question I have is this type of person able to change their view if say an evangelical Ron Paul supporter could discuss it with them in a way that they understand or is it very difficult? I am not even going to try, only wondering if it is even possible?

 

[Nate-ForLiberty]

I came to that conclusion right away when a potential WW3 scenario did not seem to bother him much. The question I have is this type of person able to change their view if say an evangelical Ron Paul supporter could discuss it with them in a way that they understand or is it very difficult? I am not even going to try, only wondering if it is even possible?

Pretty sure it's possible. But definitely difficult.

 

[seapilot]

Pretty sure it's possible. But definitely difficult.

I am amazed after talking with that person that there are so many Christians that support Ron Paul with his foreign policy of not wanting armageddon. They must go through what I experienced quite a bit.

 

[Nate-ForLiberty]

I am amazed after talking with that person that there are so many Christians that support Ron Paul with his foreign policy of not wanting armageddon. They must go through what I experienced quite a bit.

I think one of the biggest mistakes that is widespread in the Christian community is the use of prophecy as an example of how to live life. Prophecy was never meant to be a blueprint for salvation but a sign that "these things are true". Jesus is supposed to be the living example of how to live. So many Christians just skip over that little fact.

You as an individual have dominion over yourself. Your tool, your guide, your example of how to rule over yourself properly is shown through the life of Jesus.

Let God take care of the big picture.

 

[Voluntary Man]

Read The Bible

I would make him go through the Bible with me, chapter and verse. Unfortunately, if you've never studied the Bible, you're going to have trouble converting this type of person. No matter what you believe (or don't believe), there is no excuse, in our society, for ignorance of the Bible.

I'm sure there are plenty of atheists and agnostics in Saudi Arabia, too, but I suspect the skeptics there know more about the Koran than the skeptics here know about the Bible. Seriously, what are you afraid of? Buy a Bible (or steal one from a hotel...the Gideons will be thrilled) and READ it. Then, when you encounter someone like this, you'll realize that he doesn't believe what he believes BECAUSE of his religion, but because of IGNORANCE of his religion's scriptures.

Tell that dope to give you chapter and verse for his positions; write them down and post them here, and I and others Christians here will take that clown's argument apart, piece by piece. The sad fact, though, is that he probably won't be able to give you even one verse to support his position. Most likely, he is just regurgitating what he heard a televangelist say.

I was talking with a friend of the family and we got into the conversation of Israel, middle east, Iran, Islamic fundamentalists etc. I have never debated a evangelical Christian about this, I never mentioned Ron Paul Foreign policy, only debating why he felt necessary to have war in the middle east.


He is a futurist believer about revelation. He brought up its in the Bible under revelation where it is written that Israel will come back, which it has in a way and evil forces will destroy the Islamic temple in Jeruseluem and after that Jesus will come back as a warrior with a sword to save us all and show us the way to a utopia. If this is what many believe then it seems they want war in the middle east so Jesus will return.

He believes that there is evil in the world and it is the islamic fundamentalists that want to kill us, and that is why 911 happened. I tried to use logic and said the US had bases there, but he looks at the world in a different view than I do. I tried to explain common sense about Iran wanting to defend themselves, that we need peace not war, but he said the Islamist fundamentalist do not want peace but to spread sharia law throughout the world and even if we practiced peace they would still try to kill us to obtain their goals.

Is there anyway to get through to this kind of person to make them understand or is it impossible because their deep faith and beliefs in the written word of the bible? If this is the way so many evangelicals are no wonder Ron Paul is getting written off for not being an israel firster.

 

[Deborah K]

I would make him go through the Bible with me, chapter and verse. Unfortunately, if you've never studied the Bible, you're going to have trouble converting this type of person. No matter what you believe (or don't believe), there is no excuse, in our society, for ignorance of the Bible.

I'm sure there are plenty of atheists and agnostics in Saudi Arabia, too, but I suspect the skeptics there know more about the Koran than the skeptics here know about the Bible. Seriously, what are you afraid of? Buy a Bible (or steal one from a hotel...the Gideons will be thrilled) and READ it. Then, when you encounter someone like this, you'll realize that he doesn't believe what he believes BECAUSE of his religion, but because of IGNORANCE of his religion's scriptures.

Tell that dope to give you chapter and verse for his positions; write them down and post them here, and I and others Christians here will take that clown's argument apart, piece by piece. The sad fact, though, is that he probably won't be able to give you even one verse to support his position. Most likely, he is just regurgitating what he heard a televangelist say.

This is really hostile and condescending. It lacks any understanding of fundamentalist Christianity. The OP will get absolutely nowhere with this approach.

 

[James Madison]

He is a futurist believer about revelation. He brought up its in the Bible under revelation where it is written that Israel will come back, which it has in a way and evil forces will destroy the Islamic temple in Jeruseluem and after that Jesus will come back as a warrior with a sword to save us all and show us the way to a utopia. If this is what many believe then it seems they want war in the middle east so Jesus will return.

Sigh.

I'm a historicist, myself (well, mostly). But this passage is wrong on so many fundamental points. In fact, this was the EXACT same reason most of the Israelites rejected Christ in the 1st Century. Jesus didn't kick enough ass and didn't take enough names. They wanted an Ahnold-type demigod ala Hercules to single-handedly overthrow the Roman empire, but Jesus told them that His Kingdom was not of this world. Thus, His Kingdom 'Israel' is and always has been a spirtual one. It is only on Judgement Day that God's Kingdom will become a physical place, a New Jerusalem in a perfect universe.

 

[Deborah K]

To the OP: Your friend is a fundamentalist Christian. They are different from the rest of us in that they perceive the entire Bible literally. Most Christians understand that while some of it can be taken literally, and some of it is historical, some it is also meant to be taken metaphorically, while ALL of it is divinely inspired.

As long as you are dealing with someone who takes the Bible literally, there isn't much you can do to change their opinion about the apocalypse. You can try. But frankly, I wouldn't. I'd probably just pray for him that his eyes are opened.

 

[Voluntary Man]

This is really hostile and condescending. It lacks any understanding of fundamentalist Christianity. The OP will get absolutely nowhere with this approach.

My hostility is less with the mass ignorance of the substance of the #1 best seller of western civilization than with the specific ignorance among those professing to represent my faith.

Also, your characterization of fundamentalist Christianity is flawed (no offense intended). Much of the Bible is written metaphorically, and is impossible to be interpreted "literally" -- which is not to imply that it can't be interpreted accurately. Take the parables of Jesus for example. No, correctly defined, fundamentalism means relying solely on the Bible to guide and inform one's faith, and does not include a literal interpretation -- which is impossible.

 

[cartemj06]

This is how you reach him: No man knows the day or the hour, that is from the bible, the book of Matthew I believe. Now if he agrees to that then you just say that this is man trying to manipulate the timeline and force the hand of God. It is by proxy predicting the return of Christ. You need to encourage him to read the bible for himself and not take someone else's futurist view, the book of revelation has three separate interpretations, none of which are mutually exclusive to the other. I have had several debates on multiple issues with several biblical "teachers" in private and none have taken the offer to publicly discuss the issue in front of a congregation.

 

[TER]

To the OP: Your friend is a fundamentalist Christian. They are different from the rest of us in that they perceive the entire Bible literally. Most Christians understand that while some of it can be taken literally, and some of it is historical, some it is also meant to be taken metaphorically, while ALL of it is divinely inspired.

As long as you are dealing with someone who takes the Bible literally, there isn't much you can do to change their opinion about the apocalypse. You can try. But frankly, I wouldn't. I'd probably just pray for him that his eyes are opened.

Well said.

 

[Gary4Liberty]

Well lets just get this whole armageddon thing over with already and elect Ron Paul so the dominos can start falling and israel can be destroyed and then rebuilt with the Son of God descending from on high and all that. Vote Ron Paul and your wildest dreams will come true.

 

[Sola_Fide]

To the OP: Your friend is a fundamentalist Christian. They are different from the rest of us in that they perceive the entire Bible literally. Most Christians understand that while some of it can be taken literally, and some of it is historical, some it is also meant to be taken metaphorically, while ALL of it is divinely inspired.

As long as you are dealing with someone who takes the Bible literally, there isn't much you can do to change their opinion about the apocalypse. You can try. But frankly, I wouldn't. I'd probably just pray for him that his eyes are opened.

Actually, the idea of black helicopters, implanted RFID chips, and millions or cars suddenly becoming unmanned is the most un-literal and stupid interpretation that can be had. The people who engage in this stuff cannot possibly show that the apostle Paul or John had these things in mind.

It is much more "literal" to let the Bible interpret itself and allow the prophetic imagery of the NT to be informed by the prophetic imagery of the OT.

This is where at least some degree of preterism brings some sanity back into this entire issue.

 

[Deborah K]

My hostility is less with the mass ignorance of the substance of the #1 best seller of western civilization than with the specific ignorance among those professing to represent my faith.

Also, your characterization of fundamentalist Christianity is flawed (no offense intended). Much of the Bible is written metaphorically, and is impossible to be interpreted "literally" -- which is not to imply that it can't be interpreted accurately. Take the parables of Jesus for example. No, correctly defined, fundamentalism means relying solely on the Bible to guide and inform one's faith, and does not include a literal interpretation -- which is impossible.

No offense taken. And none meant.

The use of Jesus' parables as reason not to believe that fundies (I mean that endearingly) take the Bible literally, is not a good analogy at all. It's clear to everyone that Jesus spoke in parables. But, as we all know, fundies take Bible accounts like the Creation story literally, as they do the book of Revelation. They believe in the doctrinal position that the Bible is inerrant - completely free of inaccuracies.

Your definition of Christian fundamentalism is just that - your definition. Fundamentalism has a documented history that stems way back into the early 1800s, and started out as a religious movement.

By the OP's account, his friend is a fundie. Trying to convince him to change his views on what the Bible states is a waste of time, imo.