Revelation

[Nate-ForLiberty]

A good book on religious "Fundamentalism" is "The Battle For God" by Karen Armstrong

 

[Gimme Some Truth]

I was talking with a friend of the family and we got into the conversation of Israel, middle east, Iran, Islamic fundamentalists etc. I have never debated a evangelical Christian about this, I never mentioned Ron Paul Foreign policy, only debating why he felt necessary to have war in the middle east.


He is a futurist believer about revelation. He brought up its in the Bible under revelation where it is written that Israel will come back, which it has in a way and evil forces will destroy the Islamic temple in Jeruseluem and after that Jesus will come back as a warrior with a sword to save us all and show us the way to a utopia. If this is what many believe then it seems they want war in the middle east so Jesus will return.

He believes that there is evil in the world and it is the islamic fundamentalists that want to kill us, and that is why 911 happened. I tried to use logic and said the US had bases there, but he looks at the world in a different view than I do. I tried to explain common sense about Iran wanting to defend themselves, that we need peace not war, but he said the Islamist fundamentalist do not want peace but to spread sharia law throughout the world and even if we practiced peace they would still try to kill us to obtain their goals.

Is there anyway to get through to this kind of person to make them understand or is it impossible because their deep faith and beliefs in the written word of the bible? If this is the way so many evangelicals are no wonder Ron Paul is getting written off for not being an israel firster.

It is indeed curious how many people who believe in prophecy try so hard to make it come true.

 

[Voluntary Man]

It is indeed curious how many people who believe in prophecy try so hard to make it come true.

I guess when Jesus told Peter that he'd deny Him three times before the cock crowed that Peter was supposed to just give up, and not resist evil?

 

[Miss Annie]

Well, I will bite. Throw myself under the bus...... LOL.
I guess I would be what you guys consider a stupid fundamentalist. I don't want to debate my position, but I will try to explain how someone with this position could support Dr. Paul - and that is the information that is needed here - I am guessing.

I believe the prophecies to be very much as described in the OP. However,.... I also agree with what the later poster said about "noone knows the day or the hour".
I believe the prophecies to be as described in the OP - but I also believe that it is IN GOD's TIMING.
I disagree on the fact that I would want to encourage things to take place, it does not sound like a pleasant experience is coming and I have an innate desire to protect my children from harm.
I also believe that every minute that God gives us is precious. We need to make the most of it that we can.
For our protection,...... Dr Paul seems the most logical choice. Actually it was this video that really converted me to Dr Paul :

 

[Deborah K]

Well, I will bite. Throw myself under the bus...... LOL.
I guess I would be what you guys consider a stupid fundamentalist. I don't want to debate my position, but I will try to explain how someone with this position could support Dr. Paul - and that is the information that is needed here - I am guessing.

I believe the prophecies to be very much as described in the OP. However,.... I also agree with what the later poster said about "noone knows the day or the hour".
I believe the prophecies to be as described in the OP - but I also believe that it is IN GOD's TIMING.
I disagree on the fact that I would want to encourage things to take place, it does not sound like a pleasant experience is coming and I have an innate desire to protect my children from harm.
I also believe that every minute that God gives us is precious. We need to make the most of it that we can.
For our protection,...... Dr Paul seems the most logical choice. Actually it was this video that really converted me to Dr Paul :

+rep

FOR THE RECORD: I don't think Fundies are stupid - at all!!!!

 

[Sola_Fide]

I kind of have a problem with what is being described as "Fundamentalism".

Believing that the Bible is the word of God without error isn't fundamentalism, its Christianity. Also, believing that God created the universe is not fundamentalism, it is Christianity.

Fundamentalism is a social and theological movement that began in the early 1900's which was supposed to be a reaction against the theological liberalism of the neo-orthodox movement and the social liberalism of the day. It was supposed to stress the "fundamentals" of the faith, but because it lacked the foundation of Calvinism, the movement devolved into a social attack against dancing and spending too much time at the theatre....seriously.

 

[Miss Annie]

I kind of have a problem with what is being described as "Fundamentalism".

Believing that the Bible is the word of God without error isn't fundamentalism, its Christianity. Also, believing that God created the universe is not fundamentalism, it is Christianity.

Fundamentalism is a social and theological movement that began in the early 1900's which was supposed to be a reaction against the theological liberalism and social liberalism of the neo-orthodox movement. It was supposed to stress the "fundamentals" of the faith, but because it lacked the foundation of Calvinism, the movement devolved into a social attack against dancing and spending too much time at the theatre....seriously.

I don't think I would be called a fundamentalist then. I do not believe that we should "add rules" to God's word.
I do not subscribe to any particular doctrine or movement, but I would call the adding of the "rules" Pharisee-ical.

 

[Gimme Some Truth]

I guess when Jesus told Peter that he'd deny Him three times before the cock crowed that Peter was supposed to just give up, and not resist evil?

Before the cock crowed or before the cock crowed twice?

Either way you shake it, this is not a valid prophecy, or at least not at all pursuasive... it's written after the (alleged) fact!

 

[Gary4Liberty]

Fundies should vote for Ron Paul because he will protect your religious freedoms so you can evangelize the world.

 

[Johnny Appleseed]

Does being a Christian mean being Christ-like, owned nothing traveled around preaching or just a follower of Christ,where you still keep your day job?

 

[donnay]

Well, I will bite. Throw myself under the bus...... LOL.
I guess I would be what you guys consider a stupid fundamentalist. I don't want to debate my position, but I will try to explain how someone with this position could support Dr. Paul - and that is the information that is needed here - I am guessing.

I believe the prophecies to be very much as described in the OP. However,.... I also agree with what the later poster said about "noone knows the day or the hour".
I believe the prophecies to be as described in the OP - but I also believe that it is IN GOD's TIMING.
I disagree on the fact that I would want to encourage things to take place, it does not sound like a pleasant experience is coming and I have an innate desire to protect my children from harm.
I also believe that every minute that God gives us is precious. We need to make the most of it that we can.
For our protection,...... Dr Paul seems the most logical choice. Actually it was this video that really converted me to Dr Paul :

Here is my take on some of this type thinking. What better way for Lucifer to take a strong hold on things but to infiltrated religious groups and governments. He already has the unbelievers and doesn't have to sway them to his side, but the ones that believe in God, he can trick them very easily and it is obvious he has! He also knows the Bible and knows the prophecies, it can easily be said he can manipulate and twist things to make the believers interpret things the way he wants them to interpret it.

It is a sin to presume to know the mind of God. It is said in the scriptures that even Jesus does not know the time and the hour. Things will happen when God is good and ready to have them happen. Lucifer knows this too, and time is running short for him.

That being said, I have personally witnessed people who claim to be Christian who are filled with vile hatred for certain human beings. It is also said in the scriptures we will know good people by their deeds. This is where Christians need to stop and critical think...George W. Bush claimed to be a Christian, but did his deeds show this?

My grandfather was a minister, and about 30 years ago he made a very valid point to me, but it took many years for it to sink in. I was a big Billy Graham supporter, I would listen to his crusades and read his books, and my grandfather did not like him, I asked him why? He said, "if this Billy Graham was such a Godly man why does he live in a million dollar fortress? It seems he is more of this world than he is of the Lord." As with many televangelists I have seen.

There are many people who pass themselves off as Christians. But a good many of them are wolves in sheep's clothing and I can say, in my heart of hearts, that they are not, because their trees bear no fruit.

 

[Working Poor]

If that was a debate I was in I would mention that we are not to try to bring on events with our own manipulation. Revelations has a warning against it.It is up to God not us to bring about the events. This war they are seeking is a spiritual war and fought on the spiritual plane not the physical. Israel is a spiritual place not a country in the middle east, Israel is all over the world made up of God's faithful remnant.


Here is a warning Revelations 22:18


I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.

NIV

 

[Gary4Liberty]

Here is my take on some of this type thinking. What better way for Lucifer to take a strong hold on things but to infiltrated religious groups and governments. He already has the unbelievers and doesn't have to sway them to his side, but the ones that believe in God, he can trick them very easily and it is obvious he has! He also knows the Bible and knows the prophecies, it can easily be said he can manipulate and twist things to make the believers interpret things the way he wants them to interpret it.

It is a sin to presume to know the mind of God. It is said in the scriptures that even Jesus does not know the time and the hour. Things will happen when God is good and ready to have them happen. Lucifer knows this too, and time is running short for him.

That being said, I have personally witnessed people who claim to be Christian who are filled with vile hatred for certain human beings. It is also said in the scriptures we will know good people by their deeds. This is where Christians need to stop and critical think...George W. Bush claimed to be a Christian, but did his deeds show this?

My grandfather was a minister, and about 30 years ago he made a very valid point to me, but it took many years for it to sink in. I was a big Billy Graham supporter, I would listen to his crusades and read his books, and my grandfather did not like him, I asked him why? He said, "if this Billy Graham was such a Godly man why does he live a million dollar fortress? It seems he is more of this world than he is of the Lord." As with many televangelists I have seen.

There are many people who pass themselves off as Christians. But a good many of them are wolves in sheep's clothing and I can say, in my heart of hearts, that they are not, because their trees bear no fruit.

Its the sick that need the doctor, not the healthy.

 

[Gary4Liberty]

Does being a Christian mean being Christ-like, owned nothing traveled around preaching or just a follower of Christ,where you still keep your day job?

I think Christian means a believer in Christ. You can be a truck driver and still be a Christian.

 

[bunklocoempire]

I was talking with a friend of the family and we got into the conversation of Israel, middle east, Iran, Islamic fundamentalists etc. I have never debated a evangelical Christian about this, I never mentioned Ron Paul Foreign policy, only debating why he felt necessary to have war in the middle east.


He is a futurist believer about revelation. He brought up its in the Bible under revelation where it is written that Israel will come back, which it has in a way and evil forces will destroy the Islamic temple in Jeruseluem and after that Jesus will come back as a warrior with a sword to save us all and show us the way to a utopia. If this is what many believe then it seems they want war in the middle east so Jesus will return.

He believes that there is evil in the world and it is the islamic fundamentalists that want to kill us, and that is why 911 happened. I tried to use logic and said the US had bases there, but he looks at the world in a different view than I do. I tried to explain common sense about Iran wanting to defend themselves, that we need peace not war, but he said the Islamist fundamentalist do not want peace but to spread sharia law throughout the world and even if we practiced peace they would still try to kill us to obtain their goals.

Is there anyway to get through to this kind of person to make them understand or is it impossible because their deep faith and beliefs in the written word of the bible? If this is the way so many evangelicals are no wonder Ron Paul is getting written off for not being an israel firster.

This is how I would approach it:

If your friend can agree that the central theme of the Bible is love, underserved love, you have a chance at opening his mind.

If he doesn't agree that love is the central theme, he's not a Christian and has no Christian argument that can support his interpretation of a loving God and His Word.

Doing the loving thing, the Christ-like thing, never means doing something unloving to accomplish a loving goal.

 

[Working Poor]

I think Christian means a believer in Christ. You can be a truck driver and still be a Christian.

You can also be a physician like Dr Paul

 

[James Madison]

It is a sin to presume to know the mind of God. It is said in the scriptures that even Jesus does not know the time and the hour. Things will happen when God is good and ready to have them happen. Lucifer knows this too, and time is running short for him.

God will let this world continue so long as humans continue to accept Christ. The more who do, the more that will dwell with God for Eternity. That's why I don't want this world to end, in a way, because that means all the unbelievers will never get another chance to come to Christ.

 

[Gimme Some Truth]

Doing the loving thing, the Christ-like thing, never means doing something unloving to accomplish a loving goal.

What about Jesus tho? God had him suffer in order to accomplish a loving goal (John 3:16), did he not?

 

[Gary4Liberty]

You can also be a physician like Dr Paul

You can also be a President of a major nation like Dr. Paul will be on inauguration day.

 

[Gary4Liberty]

This is how I would approach it:

If your friend can agree that the central theme of the Bible is love, underserved love, you have a chance at opening his mind.

If he doesn't agree that love is the central theme, he's not a Christian and has no Christian argument that can support his interpretation of a loving God and His Word.

Doing the loving thing, the Christ-like thing, never means doing something unloving to accomplish a loving goal.

Question:
If you see an employee stealing from their employer. We'll call her Jenny and she is stealing from her employer Tom who owns Toms Ice Cream Shop. Jenny has 3 kids to feed and Tom pays her minimum wage. If you see her stealing do you. A) love jenny and turn the other way which takes food of Toms table, or do you. B) love Tom and rat jenny out ASAP.

Its the spider and the fly story. Do you save the fly who falls into the spiders web. Or do you let the fly perish so the spider doesnt starve to death.