Religion

[OptionsTrader]

Even the amoeba needs to have a creator. Otherwise, entropy would prohibit it from existing .

You don't want to go down that road...you know where it ends...you have been down it before....

 

[Dr.3D]

You don't want to go down that road...you know where it ends...you have been down it before....

Seems I must have forgotten going down that road.

Evolution is not a lie, we see it when bacteria develop a resistance to antibiotics. It is the method organisms adapt to changes in the environment.

I don't however, believe evolution is how life was created.
The change from disorder to order is not what we observe when studying physics. Such a change would be in violation of the second law of thermodynamics.

Since we always observe entropy in non biological systems (organisms), it does not make sense, disorder would somehow change to order without a coordinated external source of energy applied with the purpose of bringing the organism into existence.

In a world void of organisms, it would be necessary to construct an organism in order for one to exist. Once in existence, the organism would only be able to adapt to the environment if it had been constructed with the ability to reproduce.

Now if we observe the organisms ability to survive (live) and reproduce, we may understand how the organism is able to evolve (adapt to the environment).

Since we have now defined what causes organisms to be able to evolve, we understand what evolution is.

Evolution is the ability of an organism to live and adapt to the environment. This ability is an attribute of the organism, not the manner in which it was brought into existence.

 

[justatrey]

I'm not trying to play the guilt card or the fear card here, but what if you're wrong? What if the whole point of existence is faith?

In other words, what if the whole point of existence is the acceptance of beliefs which are not demonstrable through experimentation, logic, or reason?

What kind of an existence is that and who would create such a thing? But to answer your question, if it turns out that was the whole point of existence then I guess I missed the boat because there was no way to know this is the case.

I couldn't feel guilty about it though because I announced many years ago to "anyone out there listening" that if he/she/it exists and would like me to believe in it to please let me know. So far I haven't received an answer.

 

[JosephTheLibertarian]

I see that there are a few topics on this forum where you call some people arrogant when you disagree. A natural response to vocal opposition perhaps. I find it interesting.

Yeah, I see that a lot.

 

[OptionsTrader]

I am afraid you do not understand entropy. This is, however, a humerous and vastly popular misrepresentation of entropy and attempting to use science as "proof" of a supreme being is hypocritical. Those who believe in God like to shun science when science illustrates that the existence of God is not testable and there is zero scientific proof of the necessity of a God, however they are quick to bastardize the second law of thermodynamics at will.

 

[Hiki]

OptionsTrader:
How far down the neural complexity ladder do you need to go such that you could believe the life form does not require an omnipotent being to have created its nervous system?

Yeah I know and I dont believe that there is some unspoken magical being. I believe in evolution and natural selection but what I meant was that the human mind is really an extraordinary thing that I personally think there's more to it than chemical and eletrical impulses, I just cant go with the materialistic point of view. It's not soul/god-related but some kind of higher consciouness.

Theocrat:
I see religion and philosophy as being similar to one another. Everyone has some philosophy by which he or she understands truth in the universe and lives his or her life. Even those who hate or believe in no philosophy have a philosophy, which is a philosophy of non-belief in philosophy or its importance.

In the Christian worldview, those gods listed in your link are simply false gods (idols) invented by sinful men in rebellion against the one true God, Yahweh, and they are in violation of the First and Second of the Ten Commandments. God has declared in His word, "Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like Me" (Isaiah 46:9). Jesus also declares, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man cometh unto the Father but by Me" (John 14:6). So it's pretty clear, at least in the Christian worldview, that our God is the only true God. People may not like that nor agree with it, but that doesn't change the truth of the matter.

You're correct about the relationship of philosophy and religion, we discussed god in the philosophy class. I would take more philosophy if it wasn't for learning all those -isms and philosphers and their thoughts.

But you see many of those gods existed loong before christianity or any of the desert dogmas even came to being. And the only reason you're here debating on behalf of Yahweh, is because you happened to be brought up in a christian family or society. If you would have been born in ancient Denmark or Scandinavia in general, you would believe in Thor and numerous other gods alongside Ragnarok. If you would've been born in some tribe in Africa you would believe in the great Ju-Ju up the mountain. Or here in Finland, our national-epic tells the story of a Great Bird (Sotka) laying an egg which spawned the whole world and alongside that you would believe in Ahti, Ukko Ylijumala and many others. Or in ancient Greece there was Zeus and the wide array of gods. There are hundreds of religions all with their own gods and stories, dozens of religions with their Holy Books claiming to be the truth.
And besides all the religions in the Middle-East seem to have a lot in common, the Egypt mythology, the Sumerian mythology alongside with Judeo-Christianity and Islam all have a lot of same stories. It's nothing more than that, just local mythology and stories to explain all the strange things which primitive people back then couldn't explain. Christianity and Islam have just been taken a bit too far.

 

[Dr.3D]

I am afraid you do not understand entropy. This is, however, a humerous and vastly popular misrepresentation of entropy and attempting to use science as "proof" of a supreme being is hypocritical. Those who believe in God like to shun science when science illustrates that the existence of God is not testable and there is zero scientific proof of God, however they are quick to bastardize the second law of thermodynamics at will.

Please be so kind as to explain how I bastardized the second law of thermodynamics. Do you ever see the opposite of entropy in anything non living?

 

[OptionsTrader]

Yeah I know and I dont believe that there is some unspoken magical being. I believe in evolution and natural selection but what I meant was that the human mind is really an extraordinary thing that I personally think there's more to it than chemical and eletrical impulses, I just cant go with the materialistic point of view. It's not soul/god-related but some kind of higher consciouness.

It is a natural response, for many people, to want to believe that.

 

[OptionsTrader]

Nothing's more hot topics than a thread titled "Religion" lol....

We can all agree on that!

 

[Hiki]

It is a natural response, for many people, to want to believe that.

Yeah I guess so. The materialistic point of view is just so dull and boring. And I DO BELIEVE so, I honestly dont know but I believe so. In a way i'm religious

It's just that evolution isn't complete. It has some gaps and the overall picture is as hard to believe as the creation. I mean everything here is the product of random chance and natural selection? Everything has evolved from bacteria? It's really something a human mind cant really understand, not mine at least. But I do believe in evolution, even though the amount of time that is related to it (Earth is 4,5billion years old) is beoynd my understanding (I have a habit of getting annoyed anytime I see HUGE numbers).
But science is a moving process, always learning more. And when science comes up with the final, all-explaining answer then I will believe in evolution 100%, I guess i'm at 90% at the moment.

 

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Yeah I guess so. The materialistic point of view is just so dull and boring. And I DO BELIEVE so, I honestly dont know but I believe so. In a way i'm religious

It's just that evolution isn't complete. It has some gaps and the overall picture is as hard to believe as the creation. I mean everything here is the product of random chance and natural selection? Everything has evolved from bacteria? It's really something a human mind cant really understand, not mine at least. But I do believe in evolution, even though the amount of time that is related to it (Earth is 4,5billion years old) is beoynd my understanding (I have a habit of getting annoyed anytime I see HUGE numbers).
But science is a moving process, always learning more. And when science comes up with the final, all-explaining answer then I will believe in evolution 100%, I guess i'm at 90% at the moment.

Is your religion complete? Seems like there's no evidence for any of it.

 

[OptionsTrader]

Yeah I guess so. The materialistic point of view is just so dull and boring. And I DO BELIEVE so, I honestly dont know but I believe so. In a way i'm religious

It's just that evolution isn't complete. It has some gaps and the overall picture is as hard to believe as the creation. I mean everything here is the product of random chance and natural selection? Everything has evolved from bacteria? It's really something a human mind cant really understand, not mine at least. But I do believe in evolution, even though the amount of time that is related to it (Earth is 4,5billion years old) is beoynd my understanding (I have a habit of getting annoyed anytime I see HUGE numbers).
But science is a moving process, always learning more. And when science comes up with the final, all-explaining answer then I will believe in evolution 100%, I guess i'm at 90% at the moment.

I think you are where a lot of young people are. I was never there because it was never natural for me to explain anything with a God. I never would have conjured up this idea if left to my own devices alone on a desert island from cradle to grave. I also never believed there were any WMDs in Iraq, because I never saw the proof. If only more people in the world demanded proof before believing assertions.

 

[Hiki]

Is your religion complete? Seems like there's no evidence for any of it.

It's not a religion If you ever get into metaphysics in philosophy, then you'll understand why I think this. I really cant remember the -ism for this. I'm pretty sure that science can explain this but for me the human mind is so extraordinary that I believe there is some higher kind of consciouness.

But just like Bill Maher said, "Why cant you just say, I DONT KNOW." And that's right, I DONT KNOW.

 

[Hiki]

I think you are where a lot of young people are. I was never there because it was never natural for me to explain anything with a God. I never would have conjured up this idea if left to my own devices alone on a desert island from cradle to grave. I also never believed there were any WMDs in Iraq, because I never saw the proof. If only more people in the world demanded proof before believing assertions.

Well yeah I'm only 16 for christs sakes In a few years I'll find my place in this matter, but right now I'm balancing on the thin line between atheism and agnostism.

 

[Kade]

Well yeah I'm only 16 for christs sakes In a few years I'll find my place in this matter, but right now I'm balancing on the thin line between atheism and agnostism.

Good path.

 

[amy31416]

I think you are where a lot of young people are. I was never there because it was never natural for me to explain anything with a God. I never would have conjured up this idea if left to my own devices alone on a desert island from cradle to grave. I also never believed there were any WMDs in Iraq, because I never saw the proof. If only more people in the world demanded proof before believing assertions.

George W. Bush was kind enough to try to get you that proof of WMD's and now you complain?

Seriously though, there can't be proof for everything and we can't all individually investigate every single thing before we have an opinion.

The only common thread as to our individual views on the world is education. We all need, first and foremost, for critical thinking skills to be taught to all people, and at a much younger age. Why can't there be an elementary school version of logic, cause and effect and investigation? Because too many school children would start doubting Santa Claus?

This country tanks without it. Oh, and to stay sort of on-topic, religiously, I don't care what anyone believes as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. We all have a unique experience of the world.

 

[Kade]

George W. Bush was kind enough to try to get you that proof of WMD's and now you complain?

Seriously though, there can't be proof for everything and we can't all individually investigate every single thing before we have an opinion.

The only common thread as to our individual views on the world is education. We all need, first and foremost, for critical thinking skills to be taught to all people, and at a much younger age. Why can't there be an elementary school version of logic, cause and effect and investigation? Because too many school children would start doubting Santa Claus?

This country tanks without it. Oh, and to stay sort of on-topic, religiously, I don't care what anyone believes as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. We all have a unique experience of the world.

Saying Jesus bodily rose from his own death is a statement that can be tested.

It fails.

Saying the Earth is 6,000 years old is a statement that can be tested.

It fails.

Saying that the Hebrew were in Egypt trapezing about as slaves is a statement that can be tested.

It fails.

I can go on... the problem is really about Popper's excellent falsifiability in scientific inquiry. The questions that can't be answered, most notably appeals to supernaturalism, are not scientific, and therefore for most, unknowable.

Just give an example of a truth statement of religion that is testable. If it passes the test, I'll believe.

 

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Saying Jesus bodily rose from his own death is a statement that can be tested.

It fails.

Saying the Earth is 6,000 years old is a statement that can be tested.

It fails.

Saying that the Hebrew were in Egypt trapezing about as slaves is a statement that can be tested.

It fails.

I can go on... the problem is really about Popper's excellent falsifiability in scientific inquiry. The questions that can't be answered, most notably appeals to supernaturalism, are not scientific, and therefore for most, unknowable.

Just give an example of a truth statement of religion that is testable. If it passes the test, I'll believe.

Saying socialism can work

It fails.

But I agree with your position on religion, even though I know you have a love for interventionist economics.

 

[LittleLightShining]

In other words, what if the whole point of existence is the acceptance of beliefs which are not demonstrable through experimentation, logic, or reason?

Yes.

What kind of an existence is that and who would create such a thing? But to answer your question, if it turns out that was the whole point of existence then I guess I missed the boat because there was no way to know this is the case.

Well, God. If you read Genesis, he created humans and gave them free will. This includes the the choice of whether or not to believe in him. The beauty of faith is that it is so simple yet so confounding.

I couldn't feel guilty about it though because I announced many years ago to "anyone out there listening" that if he/she/it exists and would like me to believe in it to please let me know. So far I haven't received an answer.

Are you sure?

 

[rpfreedom08]

Saying Jesus bodily rose from his own death is a statement that can be tested.

It fails.

How can that be tested?