Religion

[LittleLightShining]

I think you are where a lot of young people are. I was never there because it was never natural for me to explain anything with a God. I never would have conjured up this idea if left to my own devices alone on a desert island from cradle to grave. I also never believed there were any WMDs in Iraq, because I never saw the proof. If only more people in the world demanded proof before believing assertions.

How do you know what you would believe if you were left to your own devices on a desert island from cradle to grave?Isn't that an assertion?

 

[Kade]

How can that be tested?

By trying to raise another guy from the dead with the technology at the time.

 

[JosephTheLibertarian]

By trying to raise another guy from the dead with the technology at the time.

But there is no evidence that "Jesus" even existed.

 

[OptionsTrader]

How do you know what you would believe if you were left to your own devices on a desert island from cradle to grave?Isn't that an assertion?

No. I know it because even in a society that has pushed this belief on me, I have not believed it. My brain rejected the invented tale outright. It is a logical conclusion that I would never invent it myself...

 

[justatrey]

Yes.
Well, God. If you read Genesis, he created humans and gave them free will. This includes the the choice of whether or not to believe in him. The beauty of faith is that it is so simple yet so confounding.

There is a big problem with this. We can agree on the fact that we have free will, but your next statement is nonsense:

"This includes the the choice of whether or not to believe in him."

I absolutely hate it when believers in anything make this argument! You cannot choose to believe in something. I can't wake up tomorrow and make a decision to believe in God. This is not part of free will!

For example, if I tell you that you must believe that you have 4 arms and 3 heads or you will go to hell, can you choose to believe it? What if I tell you to choose to believe the sky is orange? Beliefs are not a choice. I know these are extreme examples because you would be asked to believe in something that you know is false, but the same is true of something you are just unsure of. Suppose you are not really sure if there is life on other planets. Can you choose to believe there is? Of course not, because you're not sure. You can say you believe, but that is much different than actually believing.

This is precisely why it would be immoral for a creator to punish his own creation for not "choosing" to believe in him. Its impossible!

Are you sure?

I'm positive.

 

[Hiki]

But there is no evidence that "Jesus" even existed.

Yes there is! There's that Josephus guy!! But... Yeah he has been known to be a fraud for years.. My bad..

What about those Roman guys?! Right, they only mentioned about him with the name "Chrestus" in a couple of sentences... My bad again...

It's funny how people say that Jesus is a HISTORICAL figure, but in the end it seems like that neither that is true. Funny how my teacher in religion keeps pointing out to these sources to justify Jesus' excistence... We did watch Zeitgeist pt1 but she rejected that stuff, well it was obvious wasn't it?

 

[LittleLightShining]

There is a big problem with this. We can agree on the fact that we have free will, but your next statement is nonsense:

"This includes the the choice of whether or not to believe in him."

I absolutely hate it when believers in anything make this argument! You cannot choose to believe in something. I can't wake up tomorrow and make a decision to believe in God. This is not part of free will!

For example, if I tell you that you must believe that you have 4 arms and 3 heads or you will go to hell, can you choose to believe it? What if I tell you to choose to believe the sky is orange? Beliefs are not a choice. I know these are extreme examples because you would be asked to believe in something that you know is false, but the same is true of something you are just unsure of. Suppose you are not really sure if there is life on other planets. Can you choose to believe there is? Of course not, because you're not sure. You can say you believe, but that is much different than actually believing.

Free will is free will.

Yes, you can.
Your first proposition is ludicrous. There is a physical body to see and examine. The truth is self-evident.

The second, about the sky being orange causes me to put to the test what I know about colors and the names we give them. Maybe orange is blue. Maybe blue is orange. Maybe it's all a word game. But when you look at it, you see it, you recognize it. You know it for what it is, even if you've maybe been calling it the wrong name all along. Like my toddler-- he calls apples bapples. Someday he'll call them apples. But bapples are apples to him regardless of the title we give them.

I'm not sure if there is life on other planets. I have absolutely no idea whatsoever. Do I think there is, though, even though I have no conclusive evidence that there is? Yes. Why wouldn't there be? Why would earth, with all of the planets and stars in the whole of the universe be the only one capable of supporting some sort of life, so many different types of life? Can you prove there isn't? Nope. I can choose to believe. Why can't I?

This is precisely why it would be immoral for a creator to punish his own creation for not "choosing" to believe in him. Its impossible!

I'm positive.

I'm going to admit to you that this is the first statement on this thread so far that has caused me to have to sit back and really think hard. It is not that he punishes people for simply 'not choosing to believe'. I think that's not quite the whole of it. It is prideful rejection that he punishes.

I think maybe that your questioning was like a test. Come on, God, if you're real prove it to me, kind of thing. Maybe? I don't want to come across like a know it all here. But there is a big difference between humbly asking the creator of the universe for a glimmer of light, believing that you might get an answer and challenging God to show you some fireworks. With faith as small as a mustard seed anything can happen.

 

[Theocrat]

Christianity or Bust

But you see many of those gods existed loong before christianity or any of the desert dogmas even came to being. And the only reason you're here debating on behalf of Yahweh, is because you happened to be brought up in a christian family or society. If you would have been born in ancient Denmark or Scandinavia in general, you would believe in Thor and numerous other gods alongside Ragnarok. If you would've been born in some tribe in Africa you would believe in the great Ju-Ju up the mountain. Or here in Finland, our national-epic tells the story of a Great Bird (Sotka) laying an egg which spawned the whole world and alongside that you would believe in Ahti, Ukko Ylijumala and many others. Or in ancient Greece there was Zeus and the wide array of gods. There are hundreds of religions all with their own gods and stories, dozens of religions with their Holy Books claiming to be the truth.
And besides all the religions in the Middle-East seem to have a lot in common, the Egypt mythology, the Sumerian mythology alongside with Judeo-Christianity and Islam all have a lot of same stories. It's nothing more than that, just local mythology and stories to explain all the strange things which primitive people back then couldn't explain. Christianity and Islam have just been taken a bit too far.

Firstly, I find your argument here to be strangely familiar to an argument once postulated by Richard Dawkins (A.K.A. Dicky D. ) about religion just being a cultural thing, as if that has anything to do with the truth or falsity of the religious belief itself.

Secondly, I find it very unwise on your part to assume that I believe Christianity to be true just because I, presumably, was raised in a Christian family or society. The fact of the matter is you don't know where I was raised, nor what my background is. Perhaps I was raised in a tribe in the deepest, remotest part of Africa. Maybe I was raised up in a Middle Eastern society, and later on became convinced of the truths of Christianity. The point is cultures don't necessarily guarantee that the religious beliefs of those cultures will be retained by the citizens of those cultures. People can change their minds about their beliefs, as is demonstrated recently here in America with the uprise of secular humanism. All I can tell you is that I don't believe the Christian God is true just because someone or some society forced it down my throat. As an analytical thinker, I've come to submit to the precious truths of the Christian religion by virtue of scientific data, logical studies, long nights of prayer, asking Christian leaders questions, debating the skeptics, and a host of other ventures. God has revealed Himself to me in a very real and verifiable way, so it's simply a lie for people to say that God hasn't given any proof of His existence because I see it every single day of my life, through good and bad times.

Finally, it can perfectly be the case that all those other superstitions which hold that their gods are the true gods are false, with the exception of Christianity. It would be a bold statement, but, nonetheless, it can be true. As one who has studied the evidences and arguments for the truth of the Christian God, I can assure you that this is the case. No other belief system has brought more prosperity, learning, and charity to millions of groups of people than Christianity. No other faith system has the amount of evidences from science, archeology, prophecy, etc. to affirm its validity than the Christian religion. Constitutional republics have been started and inspired by Christianity. Capitalism has flourished because of the principles of Christianity. Hospitals and orphanages have been established as a result of Christianity. Great centers of education and higher learning have come about because of Christianity. Advances in sciences and technology have been formed through having a Christian worldview of the universe. The list goes on and on. This world has been transformed and reformed because wherever Christianity has been the religion of its people. Like I said, no other faith system has had the kinds of success and blessings to people than the Christian faith.

When you say Christianity and Islam have been taken too far, I have to ask you what you mean by that. So, indulge me, Hiki.

 

[Theocrat]

I See How It Is

But there is no evidence that "Jesus" even existed.

Oh, yeah, let's not even think about using the Bible as a source of evidence or historical reference that proves Jesus existed... I mean, how ridiculously biased can you get here?

 

[Dr.3D]

Oh, yeah, let's not even think about using the Bible as a source of evidence or historical reference that proves Jesus existed... I mean, how ridiculously biased can you get here?

Responding to this kind of thread is a big waste of time.
The people you are talking to wouldn't acknowledge God if He came right up to them and said here I am.

 

[justatrey]

Free will is free will.

Yes, you can.
Your first proposition is ludicrous. There is a physical body to see and examine. The truth is self-evident.

The second, about the sky being orange causes me to put to the test what I know about colors and the names we give them. Maybe orange is blue. Maybe blue is orange. Maybe it's all a word game. But when you look at it, you see it, you recognize it. You know it for what it is, even if you've maybe been calling it the wrong name all along. Like my toddler-- he calls apples bapples. Someday he'll call them apples. But bapples are apples to him regardless of the title we give them.

Sorry for my bad examples. Ok you could argue the "color" of the sky I guess, but you know for certain you don't have 3 heads right? Despite having free will, you can't possibly choose to believe you have 3 heads, no matter how hard you try. Its impossible. I think we agree on this much.

I'm not sure if there is life on other planets. I have absolutely no idea whatsoever. Do I think there is, though, even though I have no conclusive evidence that there is? Yes. Why wouldn't there be? Why would earth, with all of the planets and stars in the whole of the universe be the only one capable of supporting some sort of life, so many different types of life? Can you prove there isn't? Nope. I can choose to believe. Why can't I?

You can't because in reality you "have absolutely no idea whatsoever". How do you transform having no idea into having a belief? I would love to know how this is done. I honestly think you would have to find a way to stop thinking rationally. Ok heres another bad analogy:

Suppose I hold a coin in my hand that you can't see. It is either 1 oz gold or a silver dollar. There is a 50% chance of both, so you truly have NO idea whatsoever. Is it possible to choose to believe I'm holding the gold coin? I would say only for an irrational person. It certainly wouldn't be for me. Any rational person's reasoning ability will not allow them to believe this. I could say I believe it, and repeat that I believe it over and over but deep down I would know that those are just words; the truth is that I'm just as clueless as I was before I started professing a belief in something I can't possibly know.

I'm going to admit to you that this is the first statement on this thread so far that has caused me to have to sit back and really think hard. It is not that he punishes people for simply 'not choosing to believe'. I think that's not quite the whole of it. It is prideful rejection that he punishes.

I think maybe that your questioning was like a test. Come on, God, if you're real prove it to me, kind of thing. Maybe? I don't want to come across like a know it all here. But there is a big difference between humbly asking the creator of the universe for a glimmer of light, believing that you might get an answer and challenging God to show you some fireworks. With faith as small as a mustard seed anything can happen.

I was raised Catholic and believed everything until my teens when I started to question things. I'm just a logical person so questioning things comes natrually. I can't believe something just because I'm told its true - its literally impossible. Anyways, I began asking for some reassurance but not in an arrogant "prove yourself" kind of a way, more like a humble "please help me" kind of way. I was always told "knock and the door shall be opened", but I knocked and knocked and the door always stayed shut. What I'm really clueless about though isn't the God described in the Bible, its just a question whether or not there is "something" out there.

 

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Oh, yeah, let's not even think about using the Bible as a source of evidence or historical reference that proves Jesus existed... I mean, how ridiculously biased can you get here?

The Bible is a bunch of uncited garbage. You're telling me to examine the Bible as if it's fact, while it itself cannot prove anything that it says. Maybe I should study Dianetics (big to Scientologists) and then use that as proof that psychiatry is evil. LOL

The Bible needs to make sense, which it does not. I'm a little too old for imaginary friends.

 

[allyinoh]

The Bible is a bunch of uncited garbage. You're telling me to examine the Bible as if it's fact, while it itself cannot prove anything that it says. Maybe I should study Dianetics (big to Scientologists) and then use that as proof that psychiatry is evil. LOL

The Bible needs to make sense, which it does not. I'm a little too old for imaginary friends.

The Bible doesn't make sense? So, love your neighbor, turn the other cheek, treat others as you would be treated, etc doesn't make sense? Okay, thanks for bringing that to my attention.

Don't murder, don't steal, yeah you're right that really doesn't make any sense at all. Why would God command us to love our neighbors, not to murder, and to follow the Golden Rule?

So my question is, what is everyone's proof that the Bible is false and that God doesn't exist?

 

[LittleLightShining]

You can't because in reality you "have absolutely no idea whatsoever". How do you transform having no idea into having a belief? I would love to know how this is done. I honestly think you would have to find a way to stop thinking rationally.

I guess I shouldn't have said "no idea whatsoever" because I do have an idea. It makes no logical sense to me why there shouldn't be life of some sort on other planets. It may be unlike anything you and I would consider life. But then again, the life on this planet varies so greatly. Consider the amoeba and the human and the blade of grass and the venus flytrap. The idea that there is no life on other planets is more irrational to me than believing that there is despite having no physical proof.

Ok heres another bad analogy:

Suppose I hold a coin in my hand that you can't see. It is either 1 oz gold or a silver dollar. There is a 50% chance of both, so you truly have NO idea whatsoever. Is it possible to choose to believe I'm holding the gold coin? I would say only for an irrational person. It certainly wouldn't be for me. Any rational person's reasoning ability will not allow them to believe this. I could say I believe it, and repeat that I believe it over and over but deep down I would know that those are just words; the truth is that I'm just as clueless as I was before I started professing a belief in something I can't possibly know.

Ok, I see what you're saying here. But what if there was some little hint that it was gold and not silver? Then my belief would make sense, right? Your question presupposes that just because I can't see God that there is no way that I, being a rational thinker, should believe in him. However, you're removing from the equation my own personal proof and the written word of the Bible since it's irrelevant to you personally. Once I really started reading the pieces started falling into place.

I was raised Catholic and believed everything until my teens when I started to question things. I'm just a logical person so questioning things comes natrually. I can't believe something just because I'm told its true - its literally impossible. Anyways, I began asking for some reassurance but not in an arrogant "prove yourself" kind of a way, more like a humble "please help me" kind of way. I was always told "knock and the door shall be opened", but I knocked and knocked and the door always stayed shut. What I'm really clueless about though isn't the God described in the Bible, its just a question whether or not there is "something" out there.

Well, this makes sense. I was raised Catholic, too. See post #15 in this thread, if you care to. I explained a bit of where I came from. Unfortunately I think the Catholic Church has done more to hurt Christianity than any other single institution on the planet. Catholics are generally very generous, community-oriented people, but they have been removed from the true word and being raised Catholic, you and I have never been encouraged to read it for ourselves. I'm not trying to go on an anti-Catholic rant here, I'm not completely against it, but I distrust anyone that tells me I should believe in certain things just because they believe they have the authority to do so. I don't expect you to believe in God because I do. It's something you have to come to on your own. When you come to it, the point of humble recognition, that you do not have all the answers, no one on this earth does, that's when the curtain in your heart opens and the light comes in. Once you can begin to see how dusty and stale it is in there then you can begin to clean it up and when you've got most of the dirt and trash taken care of you can open the window and let the breeze in.

I think it's really hard for atheists to let go of the brain for just a little while so they can listen to their hearts.

"But he without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Hebrews 11:6

"But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the winds and tossed." James 1:6

 

[OptionsTrader]

The Bible doesn't make sense? So, love your neighbor, turn the other cheek, treat others as you would be treated, etc doesn't make sense? Okay, thanks for bringing that to my attention.

Don't murder, don't steal, yeah you're right that really doesn't make any sense at all. Why would God command us to love our neighbors, not to murder, and to follow the Golden Rule?

So my question is, what is everyone's proof that the Bible is false and that God doesn't exist?

That's a slippery slope I do not think you want to go down. But since you opened Pandora's box, let's go there.

You are basically saying that the bible is a great guidebook for good behavior. I vehemently disagree. The thing is, you cannot pick and choose which parts of the bible you want to use. If the bible is a great guidebook for good behavior, then all of the recommendations in the bible should be followed and all of the recommendations in the bible should be great examples of good behavior. You picked out a few examples, but which are you going to pick out and which are you going to ignore? And how do you know which ones to ignore if the book is the word of god?

Stoning to death disobedient children, selling your youngest daughters into slavery, put to death anyone working on Sunday, touching the skin of a dead pig makes one unclean, stone your brother for planting different crops side by side, & burn your mother for wearing clothing made of two different threads.

The bible is a collection of myths (myths with many similarities to the myths told by previous civilizations) written by man and editted by committee and many gospels were not included at the whim of man.

I challenge believers to find writings (not the bible) by historians and authors at the time at which the events are supposed to have occurred not decades or centuries later that provide evidence of the existence of the 20 most popular characters in the bible. That is how the process works. It is up to the theorist to support their theory with evidence, it is not up to the skeptic to prove a negative.

A: "Ghosts exist!"
B: "Prove it with evidence"
A: "I cannot, you simply must believe. Prove ghosts do not exist!"
B: "Sigh"

 

[familydog]

The Bible doesn't make sense? So, love your neighbor, turn the other cheek, treat others as you would be treated, etc doesn't make sense? Okay, thanks for bringing that to my attention.

Don't murder, don't steal, yeah you're right that really doesn't make any sense at all. Why would God command us to love our neighbors, not to murder, and to follow the Golden Rule?

So my question is, what is everyone's proof that the Bible is false and that God doesn't exist?

There is no "proof" either way. It's all about faith. The spiritual require faith that there is something beyond the empiracle world, and the non-spiritual require faith that there isn't because science has yet "disprove" an existance of a greater being.

 

[Kade]

Responding to this kind of thread is a big waste of time.
The people you are talking to wouldn't acknowledge God if He came right up to them and said here I am.

That's not true.

Each one of us here openly agree that if a GOD revealed himself in some useful manner, in any way, we would acknowledge it.

You are the ones who refuse to consider the possibility that you are wrong.

 

[Hiki]

e. Yes, God is a psychopath, and I normally dont want to be friend to a guy like that, no matter how much good they've done.

 

[OptionsTrader]

Add to that chart the number of people that have been killed in his name...

 

[Dr.3D]

That's not true.

Each one of us here openly agree that if a GOD revealed himself in some useful manner, in any way, we would acknowledge it.

You are the ones who refuse to consider the possibility that you are wrong.

I still await an answer to my post #127.