Reason Magazine supports forced vaccinations; "no libertarian case for vaccine refusal"

some people mistrust the pharmaceutical establishment so much that they'll automatically pledge blind faith in anyone outside the mainstream.

I think this is what we need to be careful about, whichever side of the debate you are on. There are good, honest, caring people in the pharmaceutical/allopathic medical fields of study as well as in the alternate/anti-vax groups of people. Likewise, there are 'hucksters and scammers' in both sides as well. We should be careful not to collectivizing each group and demonize them as a whole because both sides can still bring forth good fruit. Both sides of the debate have their garden of flowers, some good to eat and some not good to eat. Like a bee we should go from flower to flower and take only the nectar. And if that flower has no nectar then avoid it or if it is poisonous, then stay away from it. But nevertheless, usually where there is a garden of flowers there is some good nectar to be found.
 
Rising temperature, increasing drought, ocean acidification, polar bears dying, more deadly storms etc etc. The experts at the UN, NASA, all the top universities and research labs are telling you that global warming is happening and we have to give up our current lifestyle to prevent the disasters which their computer models have predicted. This is no mere disease, this is about saving the entire planet so you better doubly do what they ask of us.

I bet you don't plan on doing a fraction of the things they recommend we do. Its not as easy as just listening to "the experts" especially seeing the conflict of interests that exist between the "experts" and the companies in line to make bank off said crisis.

Wait, did you think I was being serious? :D Don't worry, I was being tongue-in-cheek in response to AF's post about barbecuing first-borns to appease the government.
 
Last edited:
Rising temperature, increasing drought, ocean acidification, polar bears dying, more deadly storms etc etc. The experts at the UN, NASA, all the top universities and research labs are telling you that global warming is happening and we have to give up our current lifestyle to prevent the disasters which their computer models have predicted. This is no mere disease, this is about saving the entire planet so you better doubly do what they ask of us.

I bet you don't plan on doing a fraction of the things they recommend we do. Its not as easy as just listening to "the experts" especially seeing the conflict of interests that exist between the "experts" and the companies in line to make bank off said crisis.

Whether it's happening and whether you plan for it are 2 different stories.
 
That sounds a bit melodramatic considering the small percentage of "true believers" in Natural News. A lot of people skip out on less important vaccinations like flu shots (where the risk/reward balance isn't quite as compelling), but how many people actually skip on the "basic" infant shot package, really? More importantly, how many skip because of principled anti-vaccination reasons or anything to do with Natural News and that scene? Very few, I'd wager. You just see a lot of them in the Ron Paul camp, because no other camp wants to permit them the freedom to make their own choices.

That said, the narrative wouldn't be hard to construct: I happen to agree with them on a few issues (risks of aspartame, FDA corruption, and that vitamin recommendations are increasingly being lowballed), and I'm not nearly so gung-ho as you are about vaccinations, but I do agree with you on one thing: The "natural health" scene is filled to the brim with hucksters, scammers, and quacks (as much as I hate that word), and it scares me that some people mistrust the pharmaceutical establishment so much that they'll automatically pledge blind faith in anyone outside the mainstream. The poster child for this is homeopathy and its true believers, and some of it is just plain embarrassing.


Because they've been brainwashing themselves for 20 years, while most people just ignored them, their ranks grew. I look at my Facebook page and see a lot more of their hysteria being passed around more than it ever was in the past.

Mark Twain said “A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.” And that's true. These people grab the headlines with their half-truths and flat out lies, and most people don't read any deeper than that.

And I'm certainly not claiming that I've never fallen for it. There's lots of stuff that I believed was true until I was challenged on it. The Irq war was a big one. It was really easy to dismiss the criticisms as liberal propaganda, but I didn't fall into that conspiracy trap. I set out to start disproving the stuff I heard.

When I found out I was mistaken, I changed my position on things. I didn't try to change the facts to make myself right.

As it stands now, there is a certain segment of the population that will never, ever believe that the government isn't using vaccines to make us all sick. But I think it's a mistake to assume they will never convince others. Politics alone should disprove that point. In an environment like Facebook, where we tend to surround ourselves with people we agree with, seeing a lie repeated often enough indeed can become easily accepted as truth.
 
Idiocy seems to sell just as well.

Profit is what happens when companies make products that work to improve people's lives. Actually, the traditional childhood vaccines don't even earn them very much money - it's the lifestyle drugs (like viagra) and the new vaccines like pneumonia and HPV that drive their bottom lines sky high.

http://www.economist.com/node/17258858

But don't let facts get in the way of the liberal mindset that equates profit to greed and evil. Better to let kids die of a disease that can be prevented than to allow someone to profit from the knowledge of how to prevent it.

Going to repost this as it is a legitimate response to your position that the intelligent choice is to vaccinate and that those who don't are idiot liberals who want children to die:

Death Has Always Been A Vaccine Complication

From the first human vaccines developed two centuries ago, smallpox and rabies vaccines, death has always been a complication of vaccination.1 2 In 1933, the whole cell pertussis vaccine’s ability to kill without warning was first reported in the medical literature when two infants died within minutes of a pertussis shot.3 In 1946, American doctors detailed the sudden deaths of twins within 24 hours of their second diphtheria-pertussis shot.4 In 1986, the U.S. Congress passed the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act and has awarded over $2 billion dollars in compensation for deaths and injuries caused by vaccines.5

U.S. Infant Mortality Rate High

According to the most recent National Vital Statistics Report, more than 26,000 American babies born alive in 2009 died before their first birthday, which gives the U.S. a very high infant mortality rate of 6 infant deaths per 1,000 live births.6 In 1960, America ranked 12th in infant mortality among all nations of the world. In 2005, we had fallen to number 30. Today in America, there are more premature babies than ever before and more full term babies die before their first birthday than in most European countries.7

Some people argue that not every country calculates their infant mortality statistics the same way, which artificially inflates the poor ranking for the U.S.8 Even if adjustments would boost the U.S. ranking up several notches, there can be no question that a nation, which spends more per capita on healthcare 9 and legally requires their children to get more vaccines than any other country, should have one of the best – not one of the worst – infant mortality rates, especially for healthy babies born full term.

New Study: More Vaccines = Higher Infant Mortality Rate

Now there is a new study published in a peer reviewed medical journal that NVIC has helped to make publicly accessible to everyone, which reveals that developed nations with poor infant mortality rates, like the U.S., tend to give their infants more doses of vaccines before age one.10 The study’s authors found “a high statistically significant correlation between increasing numbers of vaccine doses and increasing infant mortality rates.” To put this into perspective, doctors give American babies 26 doses of vaccines before age one, which is twice as many vaccinations as babies in Sweden and Japan get.

Is it really just a “coincidence” that the infant mortality rate is twice as high in America compared to Sweden and Japan, where half as many vaccinations are given to very young babies?

Sudden Infant Death Syndrome & Vaccination

A mother and father’s worst nightmare is to watch their baby die before reaching their first birthday. When a healthy baby dies unexpectedly shortly after routine vaccinations, often parents ask legitimate questions about whether the vaccines did it. They are usually met with quick denials by doctors and public health officials anxious to defend the safety of vaccines.

The death certificates of many babies, who die shortly after vaccination, list Sudden Infant Death Syndrome or SIDS as the cause of death, which means that no specific symptoms or other reason for death could be found.11 That was true in the 1980s, when I was interviewing parents of babies, who died suddenly after DPT shots, for the 1985 book DPT: A Shot in the Dark,12 which Dr. Harris Coulter and I wrote at a time when SIDS – a newly created medical term - was becoming the leading cause of infant mortality in the U.S 13

Vaccine Deaths Described in 1985 Book

What I found and detailed in our book is that most babies dying after DPT shots were not found dead in their cribs without any symptoms before they died. They were dying after suffering plenty of vaccine reaction symptoms within days of their DPT shot, symptoms like high fever; sudden collapse; hours of persistent crying or high pitched screaming with arching of the back that can be a sign of brain inflammation; severe diarrhea; redness, swelling and pain at the injection site and signs of seizures that too many pediatricians were blowing off as unimportant. Other babies, who received several DPT shots, were described by their mothers as suffering a progressive mental and physical deterioration that got worse after each shot before the baby was found dead in the crib.

Inconvenient Truth: More Full Term Babies Dying in America

Several studies in the 1980s showed an association between infant death and DPT vaccinations.14 15 Today, it is thought that genetic and environmental risk factors combine to leave SIDS babies with signs of petechial hemorrhages, lung congestion and brainstem and neurotransmitter dysfunction.16 Most doctors continue to deny that vaccination is a risk factor for SIDS17 and say that SIDS has declined since pediatricians launched a national campaign in the 1990s to put babies on their backs to sleep,18 but others point out that the only reason SIDS death statistics have gone down is because, today, fewer infant deaths are labeled “SIDS” by doctors and coroners.19

The inconvenient truth remains that the numbers of pre-term births continues to increase in America and there are more full-term babies dying before their first birthday than in most developed nations of the world. 20

Half of U.S. Children Chronically Ill

Health officials have no explanation for this horrible child death statistic. They also have no explanation for the fact that, today, an estimated 43 to 54 percent of all American children suffer with at least one chronic illness requiring health insurance reimbursement, including a staggering 26 percent of children under age six years at high risk for developmental, social or behavioral delays.21 Government officials now admit that, In the past decade, developmental disabilities among American children has increased by a whopping 17 percent and is led by a rise in autism and ADHD.22 23

American Children Used To Be Healthier

This is not the way it used to be in America when I was growing up in the 1950s and early 1960s. Back then, women were not getting vaccinated during pregnancy 24 and there were only a few vaccines given to babies25 and there were few children suffering with learning disabilities, ADHD, autism, asthma and severe allergies,26 27 diabetes,28 29 bi-polar disorders30 and taking a cocktail of prescription medications.31 And the U.S. was ranked number 12 among all nations in infant mortality, not near the bottom of the list.

Child Health Report Card: F

This is not a very good health report card for a nation that, in the last 50 years, has paid tens of trillions of dollars to the pharmaceutical industry, public health agencies and pediatricians telling us to trust their advice about how to keep our children healthy. More health insurance and more “medical homes” will not turn F’s into A’s on that bad health report card.

May 1986: Parents Reported Vaccine Infant Deaths to CDC

Exactly 25 years ago, in May 1986, I joined with mothers and fathers, whose babies died after DPT shots, and gave a presentation to the Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta. We told physician members of the CDC’s vaccine policymaking committee, who wanted state legislators to strictly enforce laws legally requiring children to get 23 doses of 7 vaccines starting at two months through age six, that doctors did not really know how many children were dying after vaccination. You can read the transcript of that 1986 CDC meeting32 on NVIC’s website and decide for yourself whether anything has really changed in 25 years except the fact that, now, public health officials are ordering doctors to give children 48 doses of 14 vaccines starting on day of birth through age six, with half of those doses given before age one.

On NVIC’s website at NVIC.org, you can also visit the virtual International Memorial for Vaccine Victims to read about or post a description of a vaccine-related death;33 you can research and read descriptions of deaths following vaccination made to the federal Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System;34 and you can learn more about vaccine reactions so, if your pediatrician does not educate you, you will be armed with that life saving information.35

Vaccine Safety Assumptions Are Dangerous

A death is a death, no matter what the cause. Every death that occurs after vaccination cannot be automatically presumed to be causally related to the vaccines recently given. However, to assume that all or most infant deaths, which occur within hours, days or weeks after vaccination, are just a “coincidence” and not related to vaccination is both scientifically implausible and dangerous.

It is especially dangerous for individual families, as well as for our entire population, to make assumptions about vaccine safety in a vacuum of knowledge. When high infant mortality rates in America correspond with the high numbers of vaccines babies are being given in the first year of life, credible investigation into the child death and chronic disease epidemic should be our highest national priority and vaccination should not be left off the table.

We must remember these children.
http://www.nvic.org/nvic-vaccine-news/may-2011/in-memoriam--infant-deaths---vaccination.aspx

From:
National Vaccine Information Center

The National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) is a national charitable, non-profit educational organization founded in 1982. NVIC launched the vaccine safety and informed consent movement in America in the early 1980's and is the oldest and largest consumer led organization advocating for the institution of vaccine safety and informed consent protections in the public health system.

Our Mission
The National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) is dedicated to the prevention of vaccine injuries and deaths through public education and to defending the informed consent ethic in medicine.

As an independent clearinghouse for information on diseases and vaccines, NVIC does not advocate for or against the use of vaccines. We support the availability of all preventive health care options, including vaccines, and the right of consumers to make educated, voluntary health care choices.

Our Work
NVIC provides assistance to those who have suffered vaccine reactions; promotes and funds research to evaluate vaccine safety and effectiveness, as well as to identify factors which place individuals at high risk for suffering vaccine reactions; and monitors vaccine research, development, regulation, policy-making and legislation. Since 1982, NVIC has advocated that well-designed, independent, on-going scientific studies must be conducted to: (1) define the various biological mechanisms involved in vaccine injury and death: (2) identify genetic and other biological high risk factors for suffering chronic brain and immune system dysfunction after vaccination; and (3) evaluate short and long-term health outcomes of individuals, who use many vaccines, and those, who use fewer or no vaccines, to determine the health effects of vaccination on individuals and the public health.

NVIC works to protect the freedom for citizens to exercise the human right to voluntary, informed consent to any medical intervention or use of pharmaceutical product, such as a vaccine, which carries a risk of injury or death. NVIC is a member of the GuideStar’s Exchange Program, which requires that our organization meet certain transparency requirements. We have also made our annual report available to the public on our website and it can be found here.
 
Global warming is an excellent example of failed science because the predictions the scientists made didn't come true. But when we talk about vaccines, the experts predicted that the disease would immediately become less prevalent as vaccine rates rose. So far, that has happened in every single country, developed or not, where the vaccines have been introduced.

If it happened only in one instance, it could be a coincidence. Since it happens every time, it likely isn't.



that wasn't really my main point and I don't really want to argue details, my point is that just the way you criticize donnay for not being 100% pro vaccines and not believing the experts, global warming advocates view you in the same light. As a anti science (you going against NASA, IPCC, most top college professors), denier who would rather see the whole world destroyed than make any meaningful changes to your wasteful lifestyle.

Maybe you can be a little more understanding and see thing from her perspective. Btw no matter what is posted in the forums about vaccines, most people are still going to vaccinate their children against the really bad diseases out there. The only dispute are usually around benign sorta of diseases like flu and chicken pox which has just as much chance of killing a healthy person as the common cold.
 
Well, the fact that they decided they needed to rebrand it climate change should give you a clue.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...r-fact-Earths-temperature-risen-15-years.html

That just puts you in the idiot liberal section of climate change deniers. But don't let facts get in the way of the liberal mindset that equates profit to greed and evil. Better to let kids die from extreme climate change that can be prevented than to allow someone to profit from the knowledge of how to prevent it.
 
Because they've been brainwashing themselves for 20 years, while most people just ignored them, their ranks grew. I look at my Facebook page and see a lot more of their hysteria being passed around more than it ever was in the past.

Mark Twain said “A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.” And that's true. These people grab the headlines with their half-truths and flat out lies, and most people don't read any deeper than that.

And I'm certainly not claiming that I've never fallen for it. There's lots of stuff that I believed was true until I was challenged on it. The Irq war was a big one. It was really easy to dismiss the criticisms as liberal propaganda, but I didn't fall into that conspiracy trap. I set out to start disproving the stuff I heard.

When I found out I was mistaken, I changed my position on things. I didn't try to change the facts to make myself right.

As it stands now, there is a certain segment of the population that will never, ever believe that the government isn't using vaccines to make us all sick. But I think it's a mistake to assume they will never convince others. Politics alone should disprove that point. In an environment like Facebook, where we tend to surround ourselves with people we agree with, seeing a lie repeated often enough indeed can become easily accepted as truth.

That's true, but it's not happening in a vacuum either. A lot of it is more reactionary than anything else: Look at the hard push from government, media, and big pharma for newer vaccines for H1N1 and HPV, coupled with the push for mandatory vaccination. The more insistent and reckless the push becomes, the more it drives vaccine opponents to not only push back more vocally but become more polarized and overextend their arguments...and then the same thing happens to the pro-vaccine side too, because that's how "partisan" politics work.
 
Last edited:
Rising temperature, increasing drought, ocean acidification, polar bears dying, more deadly storms etc etc. The experts at the UN, NASA, all the top universities and research labs are telling you that global warming is happening and we have to give up our current lifestyle to prevent the disasters which their computer models have predicted. This is no mere disease, this is about saving the entire planet so you better doubly do what they ask of us.

I bet you don't plan on doing a fraction of the things they recommend we do. Its not as easy as just listening to "the experts" especially seeing the conflict of interests that exist between the "experts" and the companies in line to make bank off said crisis.

But sometimes we do have to trust in people who are experts. If I have a problem with my car, I go to the mechanic. Of course, I could read some books about engines and spend time practice working on cars, but I do not have the time or the interest really to do so. And if my transmission has failed and I need my car to get around, in such a crisis I do trust in the experts.

I have noticed that there is a great lack of trust in many people in the liberty movement, and not without reason. I too have gone from generally trusting the government into a state of general mistrust. This is what happens when time after time promises are broken and expectations are not met. But we should not then blindly go to the extreme of being against and resistant to anything and everything, that is habitual contrarians, as some do for example with regards to the pharmaceutical community or the government. For at least there are certain standards of practice that are expected, though exceptions of course exist (especially with regards to the government).

But that being said, if we humans cannot have the ability to trust others, especially those whom are considered 'experts' based on the time, talent, and energy they have devoted to become knowledgeable, then we will live in a constant paranoid and fearful state, helplessly lost at times on account of our own arrogance and fear, and when we need help in times of crisis we might avoid the smarter more beneficial path on account of our unwillingness to humble ourselves before others who may indeed be of help.

We must practice discernment in all things of course, and this goes without saying. But at the same time not lose the the ability to trust others.
 
Last edited:
that wasn't really my main point and I don't really want to argue details, my point is that just the way you criticize donnay for not being 100% pro vaccines and not believing the experts, global warming advocates view you in the same light. As a anti science (you going against NASA, IPCC, most top college professors), denier who would rather see the whole world destroyed than make any meaningful changes to your wasteful lifestyle.

Maybe you can be a little more understanding and see thing from her perspective. Btw no matter what is posted in the forums about vaccines, most people are still going to vaccinate their children against the really bad diseases out there. The only dispute are usually around benign sorta of diseases like flu and chicken pox which has just as much chance of killing a healthy person as the common cold.

No, I don't care if DonnaY isn't 100% pro vaccines. But she lies about them in order to convince other people not to vaccinate their kids, which is evil.

The flu kills more healthy kids than it kills kids who were already high risk patients.

And from an article about a kid that died from chicken pox:

Before chickenpox vaccination was included in routine childhood immunization, the disease caused about 11,000 hospitalizations and 100 to 150 deaths in the United States each year. The two dose-vaccine has led to declines of more than 95 percent in chickenpox-related illnesses, hospitalizations and deaths among people who have received routine vaccinations.

In comparison to the people who got the vaccine, from Wiki:

The vaccine is exceedingly safe: approximately 5% of children who receive the vaccine develop a fever or rash, but as of 1 May 2006, there have been no deaths yet attributable to the vaccine despite more than 40 million doses being administered.[SUP][16][/SUP] Cases of vaccine-related chickenpox have been reported in patients with a weakened immune system,[SUP][16][/SUP][SUP][17][/SUP] but no deaths.
The literature contains several reports of adverse reactions following varicella vaccination, including vaccine-strain zoster in children and adults.[SUP][18][/SUP] A mean of 2,350 reports per year are attributed to varicella vaccine based on 20,004 cases reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) database from May, 1995 through December, 2003.

40 million doses, no deaths from the vaccine. Before the vaccine, 100-150 deaths every year from the disease. Using the 95% reduction rate above, the number is now down to ...what - 5 to 10 deaths a year from the disease? And most of those are in the unvaccinated population, no doubt.

But these intellectual giants spend endless amounts of energy trying to convince people that the disease is safer than the vaccine because profits! Conspiracy! Medical mafia!

It's either evil or madness.
 
Last edited:
But sometimes we do have to trust in people who are experts. If I have a problem with my car, I go to the mechanic. Of course, I could read some books about engines and spend time practice working on cars, but I do not have the time or the interest really to do so. And if my transmission has failed and I need my car to get around, in such a crisis I do trust in the experts.

I have noticed that there is a great lack of trust in many people in the liberty movement, and not without reason. I too have gone from generally trusting the government into a state of general mistrust. This is what happens when time after time promises are broken and expectations are not met. But we should not then blindly go to the extreme of being against and resistant to anything and everything, that is habitual contrarians, as some do for example with regards to the pharmaceutical community or the government. For at least there are certain standards of practice that are expected, though exceptions of course exist (especially with regards to the government).

But that being said, if we humans cannot have the ability to trust others, especially those whom are considered 'experts' based on the time, talent, and energy they have devoted to become knowledgeable, then we will live in a constant paranoid and fearful state, helplessly lost at times on account of our own arrogance and fear, and when we need help in times of crisis we might avoid the smarter more beneficial path on account of our unwillingness to humble ourselves before others who may indeed be of help.

We must practice discernment in all things of course, and this goes without saying. But at the same time not lose the the ability to trust others.

You make a number of good points about trust, and I probably should have been more specific about context. What I meant was I don't trust experts to give me my opinion about controversial subjects, not that experts should be unconditionally mistrusted. :) If I need my car repaired, I'll trust the mechanic...unless he seems shifty and "upsell-y" enough to get a second opinion from another mechanic. I'd say I trust the weather man, but he's pretty hit or miss. I trust experts when I'm trying to learn something about math though, so I guess that's something...so, while I meant something different, I guess I kind of do fall into the "trust issues" camp you're talking about too. ;)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: TER
I dont think this is a black and white sort of issue. For example, for your first question, the answer can be yes, if the infected person came to my face and coughed when they know they have an airborne and contagious disease. This is an attack on my person when an infected person does that, on the other hand a person with influenza coughing with a contagious range, maybe covering his/her mouth is not committing an act of aggression.

While that may be true in a large department store it is not true in an airplane or similar environment.
 
You make a number of good points about trust, and I probably should have been more specific about context. I don't trust experts to give me my opinion about controversial subjects, but if I need my car repaired, I'll trust the mechanic...unless he seems shifty and "upsell-y" enough to get a second opinion from another mechanic. I'd say I trust the weather man, but he's pretty hit or mess. I trust experts when I'm trying to learn something about math though, so I guess that's something...

:) I wasn't addressing the post specifically at you (or the person whose quote I added in my edit). It was just a general observation I have made these past few years since the r3volution started...
 
here's the obama controversy where he wants to force buy everyone their own health insurance for their own good, while denying that claim you have LP guys stating it is for people's own good to force vaccinate every single person.. certainly helps making the argument in the libertarian perspective.. this is why i never buy into the purity fucking bs when ppl compare lp to republicans.. lesser evil at best and it depends on issues only

I will NEVER ask that you be administered medicine for your own good - but I will demand that you be vaccinated for MY own good. It's what Grandma Rand used to call " rational selfishness".

You 'member.

.
 
That's true, but it's not happening in a vacuum either. A lot of it is more reactionary than anything else: Look at the hard push from government, media, and big pharma for newer vaccines for H1N1 and HPV, coupled with the push for mandatory vaccination. The more insistent and reckless the push becomes, the more it drives vaccine opponents to not only push back vocally but become more polarized and overextend their arguments...and then the same thing happens to the pro-vaccine side too, because that's how "partisan" politics work.


Oh absolutely. And that's how we are hard wired. When authority commands us to stand in line, we balk instinctively. Which is not a bad trait!

Just because the government says the flu is deadly doesn't mean the flu is deadly. Word. But the inverse is also true in that just because the government says the flu is deadly doesn't mean the flu isn't deadly.

That's the logical fallacy in their position.
 
I will NEVER ask that you be administered medicine for your own good - but I will demand that you be vaccinated for MY own good. It's what Grandma Rand used to call " rational selfishness".

You 'member.

.

Once again, that's just the Bush Doctrine's view on "self defense" applied to preemptive forced vaccines instead of preemptive war.
 
I will NEVER ask that you be administered medicine for your own good - but I will demand that you be vaccinated for MY own good. It's what Grandma Rand used to call " rational selfishness".

You 'member.

.

And using that logic has got us the tyranny we have now.

Yipee...Wait until you see what I come up with, that YOU will have to comply with, for MY own good.

This is hopeless...we're fucked.
 
Thus spoke Zarathustra.

"Liberals" say the same thing about free-market solutions to government dependency.

Yawn.

While ignoring the fact that you're arguing as the liberals do - that is, with no facts to back up your position. We wouldn't believe in free market solutions if there wasn't a track record to prove our point. Ditto with government dependency - we can disprove that fallacy all day long.

The anti-vaxxers don't have shit to prove their point, so they just lie and make up stuff.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top