Reason Magazine supports forced vaccinations; "no libertarian case for vaccine refusal"

[moostraks]

Nothing like some sickness to bring out the closet authoritarians.

Let the powers that be launch a bio-weapon "terror" attack.

This country will go Full Nazi Retard in 48 hours.

"Civilized" people would barbeque their first born on the front lawn, if that's what government told them to do.

No doubt. Young mothers on some of the birth boards are some of the worst folks I have seen because they by and large seem to grasp that corporations could be greedy but think that the medical establishment has some magic fairy dust to prevent big pharma from colluding with doctors for profit. Hello? What's up with that? Fear sells...

 

[angelatc]

Uh read the article, again I suppose. The DOCTORS told the parents that the baby most likely got it in the hospital.

You read it again: That's a claim that the anti-vax queen made on her blog. It is in the article as evidence that she just simply makes crap up.

Here's the quote again:

On May 3, 2009, Dorey wrote that Dana caught whooping cough in the hospital as a newborn: "The only thing that is fairly certain, according to Dana's doctor, is that she probably did come into contact with pertussis in the hospital - not after she went home."

Dorey is the anti-vax blogger who has no credibility what-so-ever.

Do you want me to go back up and quote the mother, who clearly says they have no idea where she got it, too?

 

[Contumacious]

We established a long time ago that the poster in question doesn't give a crap about freedom or liberty.

My confused opponent equates VIOLENT NONSENSICAL CONFRONTATION with Libertarianism. He is equally confused about PATHOGENS.

A pathogen is any organism — such as a virus, a fungus, or a bacterium — that causes a disease in another organism. But from his standpoint when it comes to pathogens I do not have a right to stand my ground.

Comparing diseases that a human CANNOT control with nerve gas DELIBERATELY released into the air is an absolutely stupid argument. But then, he knows that. He just doesn't give a crap about freedom. Dennis Kucinich probably supports more actual freedom than he does.

Excuse moi, but that is the crux of the debate

A vaccine is a biological preparation that improves immunity to a particular disease. A vaccine typically contains an agent that resembles a disease-causing microorganism and is often made from weakened or killed forms of the microbe, its toxins or one of its surface proteins. The agent stimulates the body's immune system to recognize the agent as foreign, destroy it, and keep a record of it, so that the immune system can more easily recognize and destroy any of these microorganisms that it later encounters.

.

 

[angelatc]

No doubt. Young mothers on some of the birth boards are some of the worst folks I have seen because they by and large seem to grasp that corporations could be greedy but think that the medical establishment has some magic fairy dust to prevent big pharma from colluding with doctors for profit. Hello? What's up with that? Fear sells...

Idiocy seems to sell just as well.

Profit is what happens when companies make products that work to improve people's lives. Actually, the traditional childhood vaccines don't even earn them very much money - it's the lifestyle drugs (like viagra) and the new vaccines like pneumonia and HPV that drive their bottom lines sky high.

http://www.economist.com/node/17258858

But don't let facts get in the way of the liberal mindset that equates profit to greed and evil. Better to let kids die of a disease that can be prevented than to allow someone to profit from the knowledge of how to prevent it.

 

[moostraks]

You read it again: That's a claim that the anti-vax queen made on her blog. It is in the article as evidence that she just simply makes crap up.

Here's the quote again:

Dorey is the anti-vax blogger who has no credibility what-so-ever.

Do you want me to go back up and quote the mother, who clearly says they have no idea where she got it, too?

I was curious where this accusation came up. Ran into this regarding the mother's position on it:

TONI McCaffery suspects a daycare centre was the most likely point where her daughter Dana contracted whooping cough in 2009.

Dana was just six days old when Mrs McCaffery took her inside the centre while dropping off her four-year-old daughter Aisling.

Just over three weeks later, Dana was dead, her tiny body ravaged by whooping cough.

After Dana died, Mrs McCaffery set up a spreadsheet to track her movements and pinpoint where her baby had been exposed to the disease, narrowing the potential places down to the shopping centre, the school and the childcare centre.

Then six cases of whooping cough were confirmed at Aisling's childcare centre.

"I feel like I walked my daughter into something deadly," Mrs McCaffery said.

http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/vac...r-within-daycare/story-fnii5s3z-1226650593940

I can't stand hospitals or doctor's offices as they are hotbeds for newborns to pick up some vial nasty funk. They insist upon so many visits for newborns to assess their well being and I always heaved a sigh of relief when they weren't worse after going. I mean really, the sick section in most doctor's offices is the other section of the lobby like germs will read and stay there. She found a potential likely source that she is saying she believes was the area of exposure. No one will know for sure.

 

[Mini-Me]

Nothing like some sickness to bring out the closet authoritarians.

Let the powers that be launch a bio-weapon "terror" attack.

This country will go Full Nazi Retard in 48 hours.

"Civilized" people would barbeque their first born on the front lawn, if that's what government told them to do.

In times of crisis, it's more important than ever to listen to the experts.

 

[angelatc]

In times of crisis, it's more important than ever to listen to the experts.

Unfortunately, listening to Natural News is what will lead to the crisis that will eventually get us all mandatory vaccines.

They're probably part of the plot, intentionally spreading disinformation so that the government can swoop in and save the children, and allow the textbooks to be filled with stories about how people really were too stupid to care for themselves.

 

[TER]

In many cultures, including the ancient Christian traditions, the mother and newborn baby do not leave the house for 40 days and visitors are limited to just a few close relatives (if any at all) during that time. Definitely no children visitors and no visits to a daycare center which is a breeding ground of pathogens. My wife adhered to this tradition, including delaying the first doctor's office visit until after 40 days. This practice is not as commonly done as it used to be which is unfortunate. Most likely had this family done the same, the baby would not contracted whooping cough. (Of course, I am not blaming the poor mother -may God give her strength- but just simply pointing out that sometimes the traditions of the past are worth keeping.)

 

[angelatc]

In many cultures, including the ancient Christian traditions, the mother and newborn baby do not leave the house for 40 days and visitors are limited to just a few close relatives (if any at all) during that time. Definitely no children visitors and no visits to a daycare center which is a breeding ground of infections. My wife adhered to this tradition, including delaying the first doctor's office visit until after 40 days. This practice is not as commonly done as it used to be which is unfortunate. Most likely had this family done the same, the baby would not contracted whooping cough. (Of course, I am not blaming the poor mother -may God give her strength- but just simply pointing out that sometimes the traditions of the past are worth keeping.

How do you eliminate children visitors when the baby isn't the first? Pull your kids out of school for a month?

I pointed out in another thread, the name for this is "cocooning" and the same evil doctors who recommend vaccines also recommend this when discussing minimizing the spread of disease. It also involves vaccinating the people who will be coming into contact with the infant. Siblings, working parents, etc.


But one does not replace the other. It isn't an either/or scenario.

 

[TER]

I pointed out in another thread, the name for this is "cocooning" and the same evil doctors who recommend vaccines also recommend this when discussing minimizing the spread of disease. But one does not replace the other. It isn't an either/or scenario.

Thank you! I didn't know it had a name.

 

[Contumacious]

You're talking about pre-crime here, not to mention that pathogens act independently of the person "Spreading" them.

I understand your discomfort. Not everything the government does is bad. But let's find a non-governmental approach.

Deadly Choices: How the Anti-Vaccine Movement Threatens Us All

.

 

[angelatc]

Thank you! I didn't know it had a name.

I didn't know anything about it until DebK mentioned it, so I started reading. After learning more, I would say this is something I would certainly do now, although I didn't do it when my kids were little.

 

[juleswin]

In times of crisis, it's more important than ever to listen to the experts.

Rising temperature, increasing drought, ocean acidification, polar bears dying, more deadly storms etc etc. The experts at the UN, NASA, all the top universities and research labs are telling you that global warming is happening and we have to give up our current lifestyle to prevent the disasters which their computer models have predicted. This is no mere disease, this is about saving the entire planet so you better doubly do what they ask of us.

I bet you don't plan on doing a fraction of the things they recommend we do. Its not as easy as just listening to "the experts" especially seeing the conflict of interests that exist between the "experts" and the companies in line to make bank off said crisis.

 

[moostraks]

Idiocy seems to sell just as well.

Profit is what happens when companies make products that work to improve people's lives. Actually, the traditional childhood vaccines don't even earn them very much money - it's the lifestyle drugs (like viagra) and the new vaccines like pneumonia and HPV that drive their bottom lines sky high.

http://www.economist.com/node/17258858

But don't let facts get in the way of the liberal mindset that equates profit to greed and evil. Better to let kids die of a disease that can be prevented than to allow someone to profit from the knowledge of how to prevent it.

Yep idiocy does sell, when one buys into a spin of things by a sector that does its level best to deflect criticism and deny culpability for the harm its products cause without giving proper respect for the fact that they could be wrong in trusting said organization. Ya know most parents want to do whats best for their children. Most people whose choose not to vac are not idiots but making a hard choice for what is right for their family. Keep flaming as it just show how irrational your own opinion is when you have to stoop to defamation. For the record I don't think you are an idiot, but I also think you have been blessed not to have suffered damages from your experiences. Others have not been as lucky and yet you dismiss their pain as trivial and many are being denied the right to be heard by the very same corporations you are viciously defending. They are skewing the numbers for profit.

As for profit being from what works to improve people's lives do tell me how that is at work within the MIC? Fear sells...

 

[Eagles' Wings]

In many cultures, including the ancient Christian traditions, the mother and newborn baby do not leave the house for 40 days and visitors are limited to just a few close relatives (if any at all) during that time. Definitely no children visitors and no visits to a daycare center which is a breeding ground of pathogens. My wife adhered to this tradition, including delaying the first doctor's office visit until after 40 days. This practice is not as commonly done as it used to be which is unfortunate. Most likely had this family done the same, the baby would not contracted whooping cough. (Of course, I am not blaming the poor mother -may God give her strength- but just simply pointing out that sometimes the traditions of the past are worth keeping.)

We did this with our second child and it is awesome. Thank you for an uplifting post and one that could encourage other families to do the same. +rep

 

[69360]

What a load of crap. You have the right to choose what is right for you.

I'm not a big fan vaccinations. There are just too many these days and I worry about the effects.

My kids had the minimum for public schools, no more. We don't do the flu shots or tetanus.

If somebody wants less than I do, it's their right.

 

[PRB]

Reason magazine is all over the place. Seems that they cater to corporate donors at times.

they're pro-immigrant & anti-prison too

 

[Mini-Me]

Unfortunately, listening to Natural News is what will lead to the crisis that will eventually get us all mandatory vaccines.

They're probably part of the plot, intentionally spreading disinformation so that the government can swoop in and save the children, and allow the textbooks to be filled with stories about how people really were too stupid to care for themselves.

That sounds a bit melodramatic considering the small percentage of "true believers" in Natural News. A lot of people skip out on less important vaccinations like flu shots (where the risk/reward balance isn't quite as compelling), but how many people actually skip on the "basic" infant shot package, really? More importantly, how many skip because of principled anti-vaccination reasons or anything to do with Natural News and that scene? Very few, I'd wager. You just see a lot of them in the Ron Paul camp, because no other camp wants to permit them the freedom to make their own choices.

That said, the narrative wouldn't be hard to construct: I happen to agree with them on a few issues (risks of aspartame, FDA corruption, and that vitamin recommendations are increasingly being lowballed), and I'm not nearly so gung-ho as you are about vaccinations, but I do agree with you on one thing: The "natural health" scene is filled to the brim with hucksters, scammers, and quacks (as much as I hate that word), and it scares me that some people mistrust the pharmaceutical establishment so much that they'll automatically pledge blind faith in anyone outside the mainstream and even disparage real science (by that I mean the practice of the scientific method, double-blind testing methodology, etc.). The poster child for this is homeopathy and its true believers, and some of it is just plain embarrassing.

 

[angelatc]

Rising temperature, increasing drought, ocean acidification, polar bears dying, more deadly storms etc etc. The experts at the UN, NASA, all the top universities and research labs are telling you that global warming is happening and we have to give up our current lifestyle to prevent the disasters which their computer models have predicted. This is no mere disease, this is about saving the entire planet so you better doubly do what they ask of us.

I bet you don't plan on doing a fraction of the things they recommend we do. Its not as easy as just listening to "the experts" especially seeing the conflict of interests that exist between the "experts" and the companies in line to make bank off said crisis.

Global warming is an excellent example of failed science because the predictions the scientists made didn't come true. But when we talk about vaccines, the experts predicted that the disease would immediately become less prevalent as vaccine rates rose. So far, that has happened in every single country, developed or not, where the vaccines have been introduced.

If it happened only in one instance, it could be a coincidence. Since it happens every time, it likely isn't.

 

[PRB]

Global warming is an excellent example of failed science because the predictions the scientists made didn't come true.

what were the failed predictions?