Rand Paul's presence-and-jobs amnesty -- WITHOUT E-Verify

[BAllen]

You're wasting your time. People like him only care about one thing and that's profit. He would trample over baby if it meant making an extra dollar.

You're right. They just don't get it. They can't do the math. They want their cheap labor, but would scream like a lil' bitch if someone moved trailers into their brick neighborhoods, driving down the value of their homes and businesses. Same damn thing. You can't fix one without the other or you get what we have now. A suppressed economy with an ever widening gap between rich and poor. It really boggles the mind that there are people that ignorant.

 

[erowe1]

You're right. They just don't get it. They can't do the math.

Do you have some math that supports your claims? If so, please show it.

 

[BAllen]

Do you have some math that supports your claims? If so, please show it.

You do see the economic conditions, don't you? What do you think caused the housing crash? I'll tell you. Wage decline due to immigration and bad trade deals. Once again, this would not have wrecked the economy if other regulations were removed allowing other areas of the free market to drive down prices to compensate for the lower wages. That did not happen. Do you understand, now?

 

[erowe1]

You do see the economic conditions, don't you? What do you think caused the housing crash? I'll tell you. Wage decline due to immigration and bad trade deals.

Got any evidence for that?

And what about that math that I don't understand?

 

[gwax23]

Open Immigration please enough of all this nonsense.

I cant believe libertarians in this day an age are still repeating the age old fallacy that immigrants take jobs away. Implying there is only a limited amount of labor available and that labor must somehow be equally distributed across society in order to protect "Americans'' When in fact each new immigrant adds to the economy by being both a producer and a consumer of goods and services.

The government has no right to restrict a private firms ability to hire the employees who would be most productive at the most competitive wage, even under the pretense to "Protect Americans from unfair competition in the labor market"

Also the only reason Hispanics (Which is a stupid and too general a term to begin with) vote heavily democratic is in part because of the 2 party system and the failure of the republican party to market it values effectively, if not outright discrimination. The vast majority of Hispanic immigrants I have dealt with are hard working individuals with a great work ethic and strongly conservative/catholic moral values (Family, Religion, Church etc) many are even fleeing failed socialist states. They would on paper be great liberty voters but due to the ignorance and xenophobia of many so called conservatives and even libertarians on this board they have been pushed to the left to the benefit of the democrats.

The only just argument I have heard against open immigration is the welfare state and the implications increased population via immigration would have on it. This is a fair argument which I understand. Though it is still flawed in my opinion. The welfare state and other statist socialist institutions are doomed to fail regardless of the demographic conditions of the country. Immigration might only speed up the inevitable but thats hardly a bad thing. Further the notion that certain freedoms need to be withheld or restricted till certain arbitrary subjective benchmarks are reached is very statist and totalitarian logic. We need to be politically and philosophically consistent with our views not bend them and break them at the first site of a controversial topic. Thats now how we gain a reputable reputation.

Countries need growing populations and our country specifically was founded by immigrants from all corners of the world that made this country a diverse melting pot society that it is. This plurality is one factor that made us a great society. If we had the same immigration policies we do today, or stricter ones that people are calling for, since the beginning of our history, we would have ended up little more than an underpopulated backwater.

All of our ancestors where immigrants. They benefited from our open immigration policies. My Ancestors sure did. If the same laws we have today where in effect my ancestors probably never would have made it here.

A growing economy needs a growing population lest we follow in japans xenophobic footsteps. There population is now aging and dying and massive population decline is just getting started, leading to huge negative economic ramifications. The inability of their political leadership to correct this through some sort of immigration reform is a huge problem.

 

[Carson]

Right... but Hispanics have a history of voting liberal. Who, if you haven't, noticed like to expand the power of government as well.

See, I can play that game too.

I think that people also tend to think that Hispanic people are for illegal immigration.

I've found that about half are for having the immigration laws upheld. Many are more wound up about something needing to be done than others on average. To think just because you speak out in support of the illegal invasion that your working your way in to the hearts, minds and ballots of Hispanic people could be a dangerous path to take.


Kind of funny how people think playing the illegal aliens into the hands of the criminals in business is doing them a favor. If they are truly needed and the criminals were forced to play by the rules the illegal aliens would be here legally and working along side of us for the same wages and benefits like they used to do.

Even Cesar Chavez was against illegal immigration because it broke down all of his union efforts.

. . . when the farm workers strike and their strike is successful, the employers go to Mexico and have unlimited, unrestricted use of illegal alien strikebreakers to break the strike. And, for over 30 years, the Immigration and Naturalization Service has looked the other way and assisted in the strikebreaking. I do not remember one single instance in 30 years where the Immigration Service has removed strikebreakers. . . .The employers use professional smugglers to recruit and transport human contraband across the Mexican border for the specific act of strikebreaking . . .

~ Cesar Chavez

http://www.searchquotes.com/search/Cesar_Chavez_On_Illegal_Immigration/

 

[presence]

I am so stoked I get amnesty!

 

[BAllen]

Got any evidence for that?

And what about that math that I don't understand?

I already explained it to you. Go back and re-read my posts.

 

[BAllen]

I cant believe libertarians in this day an age are still repeating the age old fallacy that immigrants take jobs away. Implying there is only a limited amount of labor available and that labor must somehow be equally distributed across society in order to protect "Americans'' When in fact each new immigrant adds to the economy by being both a producer and a consumer of goods and services.

Not true:
https://www.numbersusa.com/content/...n/the-fiscal-cost-low-skilled-immigrants.html

 

[cheapseats]

...I cant believe libertarians in this day an age are still repeating the age old fallacy that immigrants take jobs away. Implying there is only a limited amount of labor available and that labor must somehow be equally distributed across society in order to protect "Americans'' When in fact each new immigrant adds to the economy by being both a producer and a consumer of goods and services...

I can't believe THEORISTS in this day and age are still repeating the age-old theory that "illegal immigrants only take jobs that domestic labor cannot fill" when there are MILLIONS & MILLIONS & MILLIONS & MILLIONS of American Unemployed.

There is definitely NOT a "labor shortage". There is a JOB shortage.

Twelve million unemployed Americans. Twelve million Illegal Immigrants. Head-scratcher.

 

[tod evans]

Twelve million unemployed Americans. Twelve million Illegal Immigrants. Head-scratcher.

Speaking as a person who has been a professional carpenter for a few decades, it's been my experience that a large portion of "Americans" are too good to do manual labor and would rather live off the state..

 

[cheapseats]

Speaking as a person who has been a professional carpenter for a few decades, it's been my experience that a large portion of "Americans" are too good to do manual labor and would rather live off the state..

And they have that luxury, when "business is booming" and employers "can't find enough help". (Health Insurance became a perquisite specifically to COURT good labor, back in a different economy.)

Immigration is eased to fill the demand for labor.

That's not our story today.

Congress COERCES enough other behavior. They should COMPEL Americans to fill/TAKE all available jobs, in order to collect/keep collecting such benefits as are necessary to keep their little noses above water, IN VIEW OF SUB-SUBSISTENCE WAGES.

 

[tod evans]

Personally I'm in the chop off the welfare beasts head group..

De-fund all aid programs from housing and food to free medical and education, work or starve..

Leave charity up to local groups.

And they have that luxury, when "business is booming" and employers "can't find enough help". (Health Insurance became a perquisite specifically to COURT good labor, back in a different economy.)

Immigration is eased to fill the demand for labor.

That's not our story today.

Congress COERCES enough other behavior. They should COMPEL Americans to fill/TAKE all available jobs, in order to collect/keep collecting such benefits as are necessary to keep their little noses above water, IN VIEW OF SUB-SUBSISTENCE WAGES.

 

[cheapseats]

Personally I'm in the chop off the welfare beasts head group..

De-fund all aid programs from housing and food to free medical and education, work or starve.

Believe me, I empathize with that position. Hard-hearted as it seems, it WOULD be better for posterity to PLAY to posterity...rather that flailing around HALF-heartedly trying to prevent every Unfortunate from falling thru the cracks. THEY fucked up (schemed) on too grand a scale, and we LET THEM get away with it. Some people's ENTIRE LIVES will suck because of it. It is nothing less than CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

But the WELFARE component of "our" government will NOT end, absent wholesale collapse. And "The Powers That Be" ARE the powers that be and be and be and be because ZEY HAFF ZEIR WAYZ to kick and kick and kick the can down the road. They have kids and grandkids, too.

Leave charity up to local groups.

In a perfect world. But in OUR world, charities are one of the SCAM CENTERS. Audit ALL the 501(c)3's, sayeth I, including luminaries like the Red Cross. WHO, I ask, would be unwilling to forego profits, if administrative and operating costs provide THE LIFE OF RILEY?

And since tax-exempt churches clearly do NOT fulfill the role of caring for the Needy, TAX THE CHURCHES. They utilize the same infrastructure & services as Taxpayers. They "benefit" from all the extra and extra-expensive "homeland security", same as Taxpayers.

 

[erowe1]

I already explained it to you. Go back and re-read my posts.

You asserted it.

Got any evidence?

 

[jmdrake]

Hmmmmm....e-verify. You have to have permission from the beast (excuse me "the wonderful U.S. government") to buy labor or sell labor. And conservatives support this?

Revelation 13:16,17
It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

Rand Paul's presence-and-jobs amnesty -- WITHOUT E-Verify

By Roy Beck, Tuesday, March 19, 2013, 5:14 PM EDT

Whether or not you admire the bold individualistic leadership of Rand Paul (R-Ky.) on other issues, I know you will be disappointed and maybe even shocked by the immigration platform he outlined this morning before the Hispanic Chamber of Commerce.



KEY POINTS OF THE RAND PAUL AMNESTY

* The 11-19 million illegal aliens would get to live permanently in the United States.
* One year after passing the amnesty, illegal aliens can start getting work permits to compete directly in the legal job market with Americans.
* New illegal aliens who are enticed by the amnesty will continue to have a relatively open access to U.S. jobs because Sen. Paul opposes mandatory E-Verify and other means to keep employers from hiring illegal aliens.
* Sen. Paul will force American workers to compete with far more new legal immigrant workers in the future.

Nowhere in his long speech did Sen. Paul indicate any concern for the 20 million Americans who can't find a full-time job or for the taxpayers who have to support them in myriad ways while 26 million legal and illegal foreign-born workers hold U.S. jobs.

Instead, Sen. Paul emphasized the need for even more foreign workers as if there can never be a downside of too much immigration. He called for a:

. . . dialogue that shows that the GOP sees all immigrants as assets. . . . The Republican Party must embrace more legal immigration.

Nonetheless, Rand Paul outlined his amnesty with enough ambiguity to give some hope that Kentuckians can rescue him -- and the country -- from disastrous leadership on this issue.


Snip...

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/nusablog/beckr/march-19-2013/rand-pauls-presence-and-jobs-amnesty.html

 

[Lucille]

Open Immigration please enough of all this nonsense.

I cant believe libertarians in this day an age are still repeating the age old fallacy that immigrants take jobs away.

It's about more than jobs. We have a right to emigrate, not immigrate.

"I began to rethink my views on immigration when, as the Soviet Union collapsed, it became clear that ethnic Russians had been encouraged to flood into Estonia and Latvia in order to destroy the cultures and languages of these peoples. Previously, it had been easy to dismiss as unrealistic Jean Raspail's anti-immigration novel The Camp of the Saints, in which virtually the entire population of India decides to move, in small boats, into France, and the French, infected by liberal ideology, cannot summon the will to prevent economic and cultural national destruction. As cultural and welfare-state problems have intensified, it became impossible to dismiss Raspail's concerns any longer."

Upon further reflection, however, it is puzzling why so many libertarians have so enthusiastically and uncritically accepted the “open borders” position. It leads, in fact, to an infringement on the property rights of millions of homeowners, and a tremendous increase in state power.

In a 1993 address before the Mont Pelerin Society, the late Murray N. Rothbard suggested an alternative libertarian approach to immigration. Imagine the pure private-property, or “anarcho-capitalist” model, in which all property, from streets to parks, is privately owned. There is no such thing as a “public space” under such an arrangement, and therefore no “immigration problem.” Individual property owners or contractual communities would be able to set their own immigration policy, and determine for themselves who would or would not be allowed to enter their private property.[1]

The situation becomes muddied when we insert public property into the equation. Cultural cohesion is a value cherished by many, but it is gravely compromised by distant levels of government which force localities to allow “universal access” to local public property. It is hopelessly misleading to describe this state-enforced policy as “free immigration”; rather, as the libertarian philosopher Hans-Hermann Hoppe points out, it is a flagrant case of “forced integration.”[2]

Read more: http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/liberty-and-immigration#ixzz2ONU63iA8

 

[cheapseats]

CAPITAL is globalized, but labor is not.

SALES are globalized, but selling yourself as an employee is not.

So long as CAPITAL & COMPETITION are globalized but DWELLING & WORKING is restricted, first, you can leave FREE MARKETS outta the debate and, second, unrestricted immigration (including amnesty for Illegal Immigrants) is a WAGE SUPPRESSOR.

It DOES broaden the tax base, tho . . . with more WORKING POOR.

 

[BAllen]

You asserted it.

Got any evidence?

That's right. It's up to you to prove it wrong. The evidence is the economy.

 

[Michelangelo]

Importing sugar from abroad would supress sugar prices. Should we keep the sugar tariffs then?