Rand Paul says U.S. needs a reawakening from "spiritual crisis"

[showpan]

Hiring my person of choice is a personal liberty, and immigration controls limit the exercise of that right.

sorry, nice try but you do not have the right to hire anyone you wish nor do you have the right to hire children.

Do I have to list the federal laws that are being broken, there are also separate state laws.

Do a google.

The two are completely separate issues with no basis for comparison.

This country is not an open border free market utopia of self governance. Start a revolution and if you win, you can enact your own constitution.

 

[Feeding the Abscess]

sorry, nice try but you do not have the right to hire anyone you wish nor do you have the right to hire children.

Do I have to list the federal laws that are being broken, there are also separate state laws.

Do a google.

The two are completely separate issues with no basis for comparison.

This country is not an open border free market utopia of self governance. Start a revolution and if you win, you can enact your own constitution.

If you are against freedom of association, you can't logically oppose anti-abortion activists on a choice stance.

Well, I suppose you can, but it's just not consistent.

 

[showpan]

Freedom of association is also not the issue here. You are taking it completely out of context.
Abortion is an issue that has nothing at all to do with you.
It's none of you dam business!!
It doesn't displace mass amounts of citizens.
It doesn't burden the taxpayer, the health care system, the education system, welfare system, etc.

It's consistent if you believe in the constitution.

 

[Feeding the Abscess]

Freedom of association is also not the issue here. You are taking it completely out of context.
Abortion is an issue that has nothing at all to do with you.
It's none of you dam business!!
It doesn't displace mass amounts of citizens.
It doesn't burden the taxpayer, the health care system, the education system, welfare system, etc.

It's consistent if you believe in the constitution.

Right, I'm with you on the abortion issue. The answer to the other problems isn't to restrict freedom, but to deconstruct the apparatus, built on force, that gave us the health care, education, and welfare systems.

 

[LibertyEagle]

So Rand just sold out to the christian conservatives too...what a looser. He looks more like a neocon every day since coming out of the closet.

Huh? What are you talking about?

By the way, I just got through watching Rand speak at the Faith and Freedom Coalition Conference in Washington, D.C.. (C-SPAN1) He was pretty damn fantastic. He is trying to make them think. You can sure tell whose son he is.

 

[LibertyEagle]

Freedom of association is also not the issue here. You are taking it completely out of context.
Abortion is an issue that has nothing at all to do with you.
It's none of you dam business!!
It doesn't displace mass amounts of citizens.
It doesn't burden the taxpayer, the health care system, the education system, welfare system, etc.

It's consistent if you believe in the constitution.

No, you are wrong. What's more, you apparently don't know Ron Paul very well. If you do not protect life, you are not protecting liberty.

Response from Ron Paul Campaign:
Rep. Ron Paul to Personhood USA Re: Pledge

Let me begin by noting again that not only do I share Personhood USA’s goal of ending abortion by defining life as beginning at conception, but also that I am the only candidate who has affirmatively acted on this goal in his career. I am the sponsor of federal legislation to define Life as beginning at conception, and will promote and push this goal and legislation as President.

I believe the FEDERAL government has this power, indeed, this obligation.

As you probably know, this comes directly from Supreme Court’s misguided Roe decision, in which the court stated that it did not have the authority to define when life began, but that if it were ever decided, then that life would have to be protected.

It is the only bright spot in an otherwise poor moral and constitutional decision.

What you are seeing in my response is simply a clarification about the details of enforcing such a decision about where life begins.

Defining life as beginning at conception would define the unborn child as a life. Thereafter the taking of that life would be murder. Murder in our criminal code and constitutional history is punished by the laws of the individual states. The federal government does not dictate the terms of the state murder laws. Some have longer sentences. Some allow for parole, some do not. Some have the death penalty, some do not.

This is how our republican form of government was intended to function, and I believe we need to stay on that path.

Federal law needs to define Life. I have sponsored and will continue to promote legislation to federally define Life as beginning at conception, establishing the personhood of every unborn child, thus finally fulfilling the role of the government in protecting our life and liberty.

http://stevedeace.com/news/iowa-politics/open-letter-from-personhood-usa-to-ron-paul/

 

[John F Kennedy III]

It's a garbage thought crime. There is no way to enforce that without having a complete totalitarian state, stopping everyone at state borders and checking phone, financial, and other records. And even then, how are you going to prove that someone is crossing state lines to get an abortion before it happens?

Terrible bill. Ron was correct to vote against similar bills, as well as that dumb bill the other week in the House.

Lol.

 

[John F Kennedy III]

So Rand just sold out to the christian conservatives too...what a looser. He looks more like a neocon every day since coming out of the closet.

That's a joke. Whether you meant it to be or not.

 

[LibertyEagle]

It's a garbage thought crime. There is no way to enforce that without having a complete totalitarian state, stopping everyone at state borders and checking phone, financial, and other records. And even then, how are you going to prove that someone is crossing state lines to get an abortion before it happens?

Terrible bill. Ron was correct to vote against similar bills, as well as that dumb bill the other week in the House.

Yeah, I have to agree with you on that.

 

[showpan]

Huh? What are you talking about?

By the way, I just got through watching Rand speak at the Faith and Freedom Coalition Conference in Washington, D.C.. (C-SPAN1) He was pretty damn fantastic. He is trying to make them think. You can sure tell whose son he is.

I like to watch him speak too, even on little issues like toilets. He sure makes most other political figures look like idiots...lol
I used to think he was awesome.
But then.....
He just voted yes on sanctions...an act of war. A neocon policy.
He just endorsed a neocon.
Now he is trying to please the religious "right" by limiting abortion.
How do neocons gain support?
Through the appeasement of Christians.
You know damn well that they could care less about religion. It's simply a very effective tool they use.
Rand is supposedly a Libertarian.
How can a Libertarian be FOR taking peoples rights away?

Thus my comment, he's starting to look more like a neocon.
I have no interest in taking back any of the uniparty so I could care less what his strategy is.
To me, he sold out.

10 years of sanctions cost 100's of thousands of Iraqi's lives, mostly woman, children and the elderly. They do not really effect a government that substantially. Why would you commit to an act of war against a nation that has never attacked us?
Romney will set the Liberty movement back in monumental strides no different than Obama has, he most likely will accelerate our demise.
and now Abortion....really?

 

[showpan]

I believe that life is not a life until it has developed into a self sustaining organism. This is somewhere around 6 months, maybe slightly sooner but it's chances are quite slim. Most abortions happen within the first month or two. While it can be argued that it is still indeed life....it still cannot survive on it's own. If the parent wants to pull the plug....that is up to them. It is NOT your creation.

What happens when you abolish Abortion...this country has already traveled down that road.

Fortunately, a majority of people in this country agree with me and an overwhelming majority also agree that illegal immigrants need to go.
Unfortunately, we have elected a bunch of corporate fascists who use non issues like abortion to distract from the real issues.

 

[WhistlinDave]

I agree the country is in a moral crisis. If one wants to extrapolate that and call it a spiritual crisis, I have no objection to that as long as freedom of religion, including the choice to be free from religion or any theological belief is preserved and protected. In my forty-some years on this planet, so far the atheists I have observed have, on average, been more consistently moral than the non-atheists I have observed. Most of them do just fine at being good human beings in spite of believing they are not spiritual beings. And that's fine with me if that's what they choose to believe.

Personally I'm not atheist but I usually find myself siding with atheists when debating religion, because I do not believe in the version of "God" put forth by the Bible. I consider myself a moral, spiritual person, and the problem I have with Bible-thumpers is their tendency to want to legislate morality upon everyone, which is an affront to Liberty. (i.e. Rick Santorum wanting to outlaw pornography, for example, or ridiculous Constitutional amendments to ban gay marriage.) Keep your mitts off the laws, and stop trying to shove Jesus down my throat after I've asked you to stop, and I have no problem with Christianity.

"Thou shalt not steal," that is consistent with protecting individual Liberty (property rights). No problem for me. Good rule.
"Thou shalt not murder," that is consistent with protecting Liberty (life itself). Again, no problem. Great rule.

Laws that coincide with these Commandments are good laws because they are consistent with the Constitutional principles of Liberty. However, it would be an error in thinking to conclude the laws of this nation were conceived from and designed to emulate Biblical morality. It is coincidence. There's a lot of writings by the Forefathers referencing God, but first and foremost this nation was conceived in Liberty.

While some laws are almost identical to Christian concepts like the two above, other Christian precepts that don't protect anyone's Liberty, and rob people of their Liberty (when those people are not harming anyone or compromising anyone else's Liberty), those kinds of purely religiously based moral concepts have no business being the law.

The only real morality our laws should exist to enforce in a free society is the protection of Life & Liberty. Anything more is authoritarian. Just my opinion.

I am not anti-Bible; there is some good stuff in there even though I regard it as a modern book of myths with no more validity than stories of Zeus. I agree with a lot of the statements attributed to Jesus, even though I don't believe in him. I'm not anti-Christian; I believe wholeheartedly in freedom of religion and I've known a few Christians who are genuinely good people, like the Mormons across the street from me. I think their religious beliefs are nuts, but then they probably would say the same of mine. Nicer people I have never met though.

I am anti-authoritarian; anti-tyranny.

I hope any attempt at a spiritual revival in this country by the Liberty movement keeps freedom of religion always in the forefront of any effort, because this is one of the most vital core concepts to Liberty I can think of. Spirituality, if that just means having good morals, is fine. But try to make this a Christian nation, and you are no longer promoting Liberty. Then it becomes tyranny.

Neither would I try to make this a Buddhist, Hindu, Taoist, Islam, Zoroastrian, Sufi, or Atheist nation. This nation is supposed to be about Liberty, not any one religion or theological preference.

Just a reminder. Thanks.

 

[John F Kennedy III]

Life begins at conception.

 

[LibertyEagle]

I believe that life is not a life until it has developed into a self sustaining organism. This is somewhere around 6 months, maybe slightly sooner but it's chances are quite slim. Most abortions happen within the first month or two. While it can be argued that it is still indeed life....it still cannot survive on it's own. If the parent wants to pull the plug....that is up to them. It is NOT your creation.

What happens when you abolish Abortion...this country has already traveled down that road.

Fortunately, a majority of people in this country agree with me and an overwhelming majority also agree that illegal immigrants need to go.
Unfortunately, we have elected a bunch of corporate fascists who use non issues like abortion to distract from the real issues.

Then, you disagree with Ron Paul too; not just Rand. Both believe that you cannot defend liberty, unless you protect life.

 

[LibertyEagle]

For a Libertarian to be pro life is fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Ron Paul doesn't enact laws forbidding a persons choice.
To try and enact laws against an issue that is of such personal nature and nobody's fucking business....is not a Libertarian.

The problems we face are not spiritual....lol

In fact they are. Ron has talked about this too. How government depicts what is going on in our society. Our society has rotted and so too, has our government. Both warn not to look to government to solve all the problems. They both stress that families and our churches should be working to address the depravity that is now so prevalent in our society. In other words, we need to fix this stuff; not look to the almighty government to solve all ills.

 

[teacherone]

I believe that life is not a life until it has developed into a self sustaining organism. This is somewhere around 6 months, maybe slightly sooner but it's chances are quite slim. Most abortions happen within the first month or two. While it can be argued that it is still indeed life....it still cannot survive on it's own. If the parent wants to pull the plug....that is up to them. It is NOT your creation.

Exactly-which is why abortion should be legal up to at least 3 years of age. Everyone knows one and two year olds can't survive on their own and no parent should be forced to care for an invasive parasite in their own home. If the parent wants to "pull the plug" it's their creation and none of our business.

 

[Elfshadow]

Life begins at conception.

If you wants to take that route, technically an egg and sperm are alive before conception. They are living human cells.

This whole thing looks like pandering to the religous right. Lets get to the nitty gritty. No matter your position abortion, the federal government should not have a say in it. This position from what I can see goes against that. I'm starting to just see a normal pandering politician in Rand. Ron not being one of those is what drew me to him.

 

[DerailingDaTrain]

There is no moral or spiritual crisis in this country.

 

[Elfshadow]

Exactly-which is why abortion should be legal up to at least 3 years of age. Everyone knows one and two year olds can't survive on their own and no parent should be forced to care for an invasive parasite in their own home. If the parent wants to "pull the plug" it's their creation and none of our business.

They have an option to get the parasite out of their home. Its called adoption. You might wanna be careful with your arguments. This one almost supports the person your trying to belittle.

 

[John F Kennedy III]

If you wants to take that route, technically an egg and sperm are alive before conception. They are living human cells.

This whole thing looks like pandering to the religous right. Lets get to the nitty gritty. No matter your position abortion, the federal government should not have a say in it. This position from what I can see goes against that. I'm starting to just see a normal pandering politician in Rand. Ron not being one of those is what drew me to him.

Hi Matt Collins. So nice of you to stop by.