Rand Paul: Confederate flag is “inescapably a symbol of human bondage and slavery”

[goldwater's ghost]

I originally was very upset with Rand for kowtowing to the liberal assault on the flag. I thought he was making a huge mistake too. At first I thought it was because he believed he was going to draw some African American votes but upon reflection I think it's a way to cut off the media from painting him as a racist the way they did his father. I think his campaign is doing everything possible to make sure that the media can't stick the racist label on him. He's got a year plus of media interviews and debates and the last thing he wants is to spend half that time defending himself against scurrilous charges

Whether that a good strategy or not, I'm not sure. Personally I'm waiting for a candidate to some day challenge the MSM on what constitutes racism. We really need to start saying fu*k you to people who indiscriminately call others racist

 

[Brett85]

I don't understand the love that people have here for the Confederacy and what the Confederacy has to do with libertarianism. Rand is refusing to speak out in favor of religious liberty and defend the religious liberty of people who are being fined or imprisoned by the government simply for standing up for their beliefs, yet people here have no problem with that. Yet if Rand doesn't stand up for a flag that represented slavery, all hell breaks loose.

 

[Aratus]

The social structure of the Confederacy and the laws that legalized slavery were not at all any way Libertarian.
There is more of an overlap between Libertarians and Ayn Rand's Objectivists and less of one between slavery's
advocates and Libertarians. Two things are happening, the Southern battle flag is being taken down from public
buildings, and some of the companies and corporations that had it on their products are not continuing to do that.
I think things are quieting down somewhat here, we need to be calm & reasoned. Again, the deaths of those nine
people in that Charleston, South Carolina church are a national tragedy. I do remember the events of the 1960s.

 

[Carlybee]

I don't understand the love that people have here for the Confederacy and what the Confederacy has to do with libertarianism. Rand is refusing to speak out in favor of religious liberty and defend the religious liberty of people who are being fined or imprisoned by the government simply for standing up for their beliefs, yet people here have no problem with that. Yet if Rand doesn't stand up for a flag that represented slavery, all hell breaks loose.

The flag does not represent slavery. Slavery no longer exists. The flag represents honoring the thousands of lives lost. No one is stopping black people from flying a flag to memorialize those who were slaves and no one would have an issue with that. A flag honoring the dead does not mean people support slavery except for idiots like Dylann Roof and his ilk. Why give him the power to set the conversation? The flag does not mean now what it meant then because then is long gone. But ultimately the issue is about censorship and we are seeing the domino effect of that censorship. Censorship is certainly not libertarian and has Orwellian undertones.

 

[Brett85]

The flag does not represent slavery. Slavery no longer exists. The flag represents honoring the thousands of lives lost. No one is stopping black people from flying a flag to memorialize those who were slaves and no one would have an issue with that. A flag honoring the dead does not mean people support slavery except for idiots like Dylann Roof and his ilk. Why give him the power to set the conversation? The flag does not mean now what it meant then because then is long gone. But ultimately the issue is about censorship and we are seeing the domino effect of that censorship. Censorship is certainly not libertarian and has Orwellian undertones.

I think like Rand said, the flag can be displayed in a historical museum. I don't think it needs to be displayed at state capitol buildings.

 

[LawnWake]

Regardless of what some of you identify the Confederate flag with personally, surely you must understand that it's not the government's place to endorse any particular culture or expression of culture in public buildings and the public sphere? Surely? Or would you be fine with it if a local court was flying the Darwin fish or the rainbow flag?

 

[Peace&Freedom]

I don't understand the love that people have here for the Confederacy and what the Confederacy has to do with libertarianism. Rand is refusing to speak out in favor of religious liberty and defend the religious liberty of people who are being fined or imprisoned by the government simply for standing up for their beliefs, yet people here have no problem with that. Yet if Rand doesn't stand up for a flag that represented slavery, all hell breaks loose.

The Confederacy and its flag represents active resistance to federal or government tyranny. Both sides practiced slavery and held white supremacist views, so that is not the main issue. The South remembers the conflict as the War of Northern Aggression because, well, the North was the aggressor, and the South was fighting to get out from under the tyrant's heel. The North's military assault to deny the self determination of the South in their decision to secede, represents force.

That is the real reason why the cultural PC forces, who believe in the total state, have put on a full court press to discredit and marginalize it. The falsification of history involved in doing that represents fraud. So the libertarian link to supporting the Confederacy is based on our opposition to introducing force and fraud to resolve conflicts.

 

[Peace&Freedom]

I think like Rand said, the flag can be displayed in a historical museum. I don't think it needs to be displayed at state capitol buildings.

And if most people in another state think it needs to be displayed at state capitol buildings, what is that to you? Can different states reach different decisions as to what symbols it will display? Imagine telling a gay activist group they shouldn't display their symbols in public, that they need to put them in a museum or closet. The issue is some people are forcing other people to marginalize themselves.

You forget the PC side is never satisfied. 15 years ago another compromise was arrived at, only to see the "bring it down" side revise the subject again now. No doubt they will later demand the museums be closed or torn down, or even mentioning the word "confederacy" will be considered taboo, or the next n-word.

 

[LawnWake]

Can different states reach different decisions as to what symbols it will display?

Obamacare was a bad idea when it was Romneycare too.

 

[Peace&Freedom]

I originally was very upset with Rand for kowtowing to the liberal assault on the flag. I thought he was making a huge mistake too. At first I thought it was because he believed he was going to draw some African American votes but upon reflection I think it's a way to cut off the media from painting him as a racist the way they did his father. I think his campaign is doing everything possible to make sure that the media can't stick the racist label on him. He's got a year plus of media interviews and debates and the last thing he wants is to spend half that time defending himself against scurrilous charges

Whether that a good strategy or not, I'm not sure. Personally I'm waiting for a candidate to some day challenge the MSM on what constitutes racism. We really need to start saying fu*k you to people who indiscriminately call others racist

In light of Ron Paul's unsuccessful runs, we can reluctantly concede Rand's approach needed to be tried to see if it makes any difference in the GOP primaries. Those advocating for this path must be honest enough to conclude, say next spring, that if Rand's compromises produces basically the same results in the Republican race, that we need to go back to backing an openly principled candidate who doesn't care how the MSM tries to cast him, on race or on other matters.

 

[Carlybee]

Regardless of what some of you identify the Confederate flag with personally, surely you must understand that it's not the government's place to endorse any particular culture or expression of culture in public buildings and the public sphere? Surely? Or would you be fine with it if a local court was flying the Darwin fish or the rainbow flag?

They fly the US flag don't they? What is that if not representative of many aspects of American culture...mostly the war culture.

 

[LibertyRevolution]

In light of Ron Paul's unsuccessful runs, we can reluctantly concede Rand's approach needed to be tried to see if it makes any difference in the GOP primaries.

Ron Paul stood by his principles, I respected that, so much so that I joined the republican party, donated money to his campaign, and voted for him in the primary.

Rand Paul does not stand by his principles, he panders, so he lost my vote, I will not donate money to him, and I wont waste my time to vote in the primary.

I really hope he picks up 2 people for everyone 1 of me he loses. I understand why he does what he does, that he is playing politics, but it makes me sick.

To me, the confederate flag is a symbol of resistance against a federal government that overstepped its bounds.

 

[liveandletlive]

The Lost Cause should not be part of the libertarian/conservative platform. Enough already with this distraction of an issue.

 

[LawnWake]

They fly the US flag don't they? What is that if not representative of many aspects of American culture...mostly the war culture.

Within the context of public buildings, the American flag is not a cultural symbol as much as a legal symbol. It also encompasses your right to a fair trial, etc. It's not an endorsement of the culture of only a particular subset of people, but a legal banner that also legally represents minorities, or even people that burn that flag.

The American flag is really only a cultural symbol internationally or on private property.

The Confederate flag is being upheld as a cultural symbol by its proponents. And the state has no right to endorse their herritage over someone else's. If the Confederate flag is up there, why not fly it right next to the rainbow flag? Or the anarcho-communist flag?

 

[westkyle]

I don't understand the love that people have here for the Confederacy and what the Confederacy has to do with libertarianism. Rand is refusing to speak out in favor of religious liberty and defend the religious liberty of people who are being fined or imprisoned by the government simply for standing up for their beliefs, yet people here have no problem with that. Yet if Rand doesn't stand up for a flag that represented slavery, all hell breaks loose.

Do you have a list of "people who are being fined or imprisoned by the government for standing up for their beliefs"? I remember the wedding cake thing, but that's about it. The people refusing service were in their right to do so, IMO.

 

[AuH20]

Within the context of public buildings, the American flag is not a cultural symbol as much as a legal symbol. It also encompasses your right to a fair trial, etc. It's not an endorsement of the culture of only a particular subset of people, but a legal banner that also legally represents minorities, or even people that burn that flag.

The American flag is really only a cultural symbol internationally or on private property.

The Confederate flag is being upheld as a cultural symbol by its proponents. And the state has no right to endorse their herritage over someone else's. If the Confederate flag is up there, why not fly it right next to the rainbow flag? Or the anarcho-communist flag?

The residents of the state decided so.

 

[Aratus]

The Lost Cause should not be part of the libertarian/conservative platform. Enough already with this distraction of an issue.

There is an ironic twist to this, one of he individuals the "Lost Cause" scholars lionized clearly wanted our union to come together again after his surrender. There
were times when he could have said or did something highly inflammatory after April of 1865 but he chose not to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVFoZFH1sLM

 

[LawnWake]

The residents of the state decided so.

So if 51% believes in something, 49% should be forced to co-endorse it, gotcha.

Statism isn't on a state level isn't good. It's only somewhat better than on a federal level, but it's still pretty bad.

 

[Carlybee]

Within the context of public buildings, the American flag is not a cultural symbol as much as a legal symbol. It also encompasses your right to a fair trial, etc. It's not an endorsement of the culture of only a particular subset of people, but a legal banner that also legally represents minorities, or even people that burn that flag.

The American flag is really only a cultural symbol internationally or on private property.

The Confederate flag is being upheld as a cultural symbol by its proponents. And the state has no right to endorse their herritage over someone else's. If the Confederate flag is up there, why not fly it right next to the rainbow flag? Or the anarcho-communist flag?

If the majority of SC consists of people with that heritage, I would say it is up to the people of SC to decide.

As for the US Flag being a "legal" symbol...how does a flag encompass my right to a fair trial? LOL. That would be the Bill of Rights...not a flag. If anything the US Flag is a battle symbol. It may be supposed to stand for freedom, but it has flown over many battles that served to oppress.

 

[hells_unicorn]

So if 51% believes in something, 49% should be forced to co-endorse it, gotcha.

Statism isn't on a state level isn't good. It's only somewhat better than on a federal level, but it's still pretty bad.

This is a hypocritical objection, the majority foisted Old Glory on the rest of the country and that so-called American flag is a far bigger symbol of Statism than the bars and stripes ever were.