Rand on immigration w/Norquist-Bloomberg 6/11

Until the drug war ends the government has a constitutional obligation to secure our borders from invasion. They won't let us do it ourselves.

As I suggested above, border security and unlimited immigration are not mutually exclusive.

This is a link with some statistics but does not have this most recent incursion being allowed and encouraged by the administration. http://cpwp.swehes.com/illegal-alien-crime-and-violence-by-the-numbers-were-all-victims/

The New York Times reports that about 4.5 million illegal aliens in the U.S. drive on a regular basis, many without licenses or insurance, or even the ability to read road signs written in English.[SUP][2][/SUP] (Meanwhile, the California legislature has just voted to give driver’s licenses to illegal aliens.) Yahoo.com writer J.C. Grant notes, “There is a statistically significant correlation between state per capita illegal immigration rates and car thefts. This correlation is particularly strong: the odds are less than two in one million that the correlation is a chance occurrence.”[SUP][3][/SUP]
If just car thievery were the main concern, it would be an important problem to address. However, the Office of Immigration Statistics reported that of the 188,382 deportations of illegal aliens in 2011, 23 percent had committed criminal traffic offenses (primarily driving under the influence). Congressman Steve King (R-IA) estimates that illegal alien drunk drivers kill 13 Americans every day — that’s a death toll of 4,745 per year.[SUP][4][/SUP] The 23 percent criminal traffic offenders figure is only part of the overall picture. According to the Center for Immigration Studies, another 23 percent, more than 43,000 illegal aliens, were convicted of drug offenses. The violent crime category of assault, robbery, sexual assault, and family offenses comes to 12 percent. The non-violent crime grouping of larceny, fraud, and burglary totaled seven percent, and on the list goes — equaling 100 percent of illegal aliens who have been through the criminal justice system and inflicted thousands to millions in cost per alien on the system, for issues having nothing to do with their illegal entry into the country.[SUP][5][/SUP]
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Some quick math...

According to this source, 19% of the 188k (or 35k) illegal aliens deported in 2011 committed either violent crimes or property crimes, i.e. real crimes.

The illegal alien population in 2011 was, what, about 12 million?

So that's a crime rate of 2.91 per 1000.

By way of comparison; according to the FBI, in 2013, there were 10.19 million violent crimes or property crimes in the US as a whole. Given a population of about 313 million, that makes for a crime rate of 32.55 per 1000.

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/201...me-stats-released/latest-crime-stats-released

The crime rate among Americans is more than 11x higher than among illegal aliens.

So, if you want to lower US crime rates, import more Mexicans! :D

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Most of them just want to achieve the American dream they've heard so much about in their homelands.
Yeah, the American dream they heard about. You know..

Free Health Care for all!
Free education for your kids through college!
Free money if you don't work!
Free houses if you can't afford one!
And Free citizenship if you get in now!

Unfortunately, THIS is the American dream they know.
 
Do you seriously think that people who come to the United States through unofficial routes want to rob, rape and murder you?

Well, most of them don't, but some of them do. But I think Rand has said in the past that he supports deporting illegal immigrants who commit crimes.
 
Do you seriously think that people who come to the United States through unofficial routes want to rob, rape and murder you? Most of them just want to achieve the American dream they've heard so much about in their homelands.


Bullcrap. That sounds like liberal rhetoric. We already give Mexico billions in aid. Why should our tax dollars provide for housing and feeding illegal aliens...whether criminal or not?
 
I don't see why anyone would oppose deporting violent criminals (the alternative being taxpayer financed imprisonment).

Hell, I'd be in favor of deporting violent criminals who are US citizens.

There's still plenty of space in Australia!
 
I don't see why anyone would oppose deporting violent criminals (the alternative being taxpayer financed imprisonment).

Hell, I'd be in favor of deporting violent criminals who are US citizens.

There's still plenty of space in Australia!

I agree. I also like how you make no distinction between citizens and illegal immigrants. That's as it should be.
 
As I suggested above, border security and unlimited immigration are not mutually exclusive.



[SUP]

Some quick math...

According to this source, 19% of the 188k (or 35k) illegal aliens deported in 2011 committed either violent crimes or property crimes, i.e. real crimes.

The illegal alien population in 2011 was, what, about 12 million?

So that's a crime rate of 2.91 per 1000.

By way of comparison; according to the FBI, in 2013, there were 10.19 million violent crimes or property crimes in the US as a whole. Given a population of about 313 million, that makes for a crime rate of 32.55 per 1000.

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/201...me-stats-released/latest-crime-stats-released

The crime rate among Americans is more than 11x higher than among illegal aliens.

So, if you want to lower US crime rates, import more Mexicans! :D

[/SUP]



I would like to see those percentages for border states. And for Houston.
 
I'd say the same about libertarians. Whose rights does an immigrant violate which requires the state to violate the NAP, "defensively"? Not directed at you Feeding, I know your on the good side. :)

Self defense is not aggression, period. And for the state to exercise self defense is not a violation of the NAP. All the libertarians debating this issue are on the good side, they just honestly differ on the application of principles to all the elements of this issue. As I wrote on a thread last month:

Protected borders is a NAP-compliant position, in that a government has a proper defensive role with regards to its borders, as part of its delegated power to defend life, liberty and property. All people have rights, but a particular government's obligation to honor or protect those rights can be reasonably restricted to those persons or families who have voluntarily made themselves participants, or citizens, under that government though acts of allegiance, such as completing a naturalization or resident process.

A foreigner who is visiting the country is not a citizen, nor is a foreign worker with an expired visa a citizen, nor is an invading soldier a citizen, simply because he is physically 'here.' None have undertaken to switch allegiance to the country, so as to oblige the government to provide automatic access to its protections and resources. So there are victims in illegal immigration, namely the native allegiant citizens, who are expected to involuntarily support (through their delegated government) a population who has not entered voluntary allegiance to that government. Their non-performance of the legal process makes them aliens and aggressors until they rectify the situation, every bit as much as people taking up residence without entering into a lease agreement are not legal tenants, but trespassers.

Of course, due to logistical issues it may be impracticable to remove them, a point well expressed earlier, but it does not follow that compounding the problem by granting amnesty is a practical solution, let alone a libertarian approach. As is plain from the Reagan amnesty example from the '80's, amnesty simply encouraged a larger expression of illegal immigration, and a larger population of non-allegiant aliens who have forced access to American resources. A new round of amnesty would likely trigger another, probably bigger wave.

The actual practical way out would be to adopt the "individual responsibility" approach, where current aliens are given a choice of either never receiving amnesty or any form of legal status, OR self-deporting and going through the process. This approach 1) puts the obligation on the alien to put things right, 2) does NOT obligate anybody to support impractical mass-deportation or 2,000 mile fence schemes, 3) would not encourage further waves of illegal immigration by setting aside completion of the established naturalization laws, and 4) makes it clear that full recognition, rights and benefits as an American, requires formally volunteering to be an American--anything less, is the equivalent of extended trespassing.
 
We can rejuvenate local economies around our borders by opening new and reopening old military bases. The us service members actually defend our borders (instead of afghanistan/pakistan border). The tens of thousands of troops can help support the economy when troops are on leave. Money will be spent in the us, instead of being spent in other countries where we have bases.

The new world order wants a north american union, similar to EU.
 
Who cares about the Pat Buchanan crowd and NumbersUSA? They do not win presidential elections.

If either Allen West, Jeff Sessions or Steve King run, he will lose, just like every other anti-immigration candidate (Cain, Bachmann, Tancredo, Hunter). Their candidate likely won't break 3rd. If Rand wants to win he has to move beyond the hardcore Bachmann fans and go for the Romney and Bush voters.

They are not going to win but it will take Rand longer to win the nomination.
 
According to this source, 19% of the 188k (or 35k) illegal aliens deported in 2011 committed either violent crimes or property crimes, i.e. real crimes.

The illegal alien population in 2011 was, what, about 12 million?

So that's a crime rate of 2.91 per 1000.

That's not a "crime rate." That's an "apprehended criminals rate."

How many criminal illegal aliens are actualy deported? Half? I'd say that's generous, but let's say half.

How many crimes are committed by habitual repeat offenders before they're caught? DOJ says dozens. So, let's say thirty? And let's be generous again and say only half of violent criminal aliens are repeat offenders. The other poor dears were only violent or theiving that one time. That leaves us 15 as our multiplier.

That gives us 87.3 violent or property crimes per 1000 illegal aliens.

By way of comparison; according to the FBI, in 2013, there were 10.19 million violent crimes or property crimes in the US as a whole. Given a population of about 313 million, that makes for a crime rate of 32.55 per 1000.

That includes all crime, including crime committed by illegals. But even setting aside that, that's still about 40% of our improved crime rate for illegals.

Just some quick math.
 
People on this site act as if immigration is the most pressing issue on voters minds, maybe it is for some in the border states, but not for many here in KY.
 
Protected borders is a NAP-compliant position, in that a government has a proper defensive role with regards to its borders, as part of its delegated power to defend life, liberty and property.

Tell me how the government acquires its resources designed to "protect" borders? Pretty sure it's through involuntary, coercive taxation which violates the NAP.

If you want to argue for restrictive immigration matters, fine, but do not use the NAP as a means to defend your position.
 
That's not a "crime rate." That's an "apprehended criminals rate."

That's right, my mistake.

The figure I cited for illegal aliens is the rate of criminals apprehended.

The figure I cited for the US population as a whole is the rate of crimes committed.

Since not all criminals are caught, the latter will naturally be higher than the former.

What we need is comparable data.

How many criminal illegal aliens are actualy deported? Half? I'd say that's generous, but let's say half.

Let's find out the actual number, rather than guessing.

How many crimes are committed by habitual repeat offenders before they're caught? DOJ says dozens. So, let's say thirty? And let's be generous again and say only half of violent criminal aliens are repeat offenders. The other poor dears were only violent or theiving that one time. That leaves us 15 as our multiplier.

That gives us 87.3 violent or property crimes per 1000 illegal aliens.

Again, let's not make up numbers from whole cloth. Find the real data. To me, the relative crime rates are irrelevant, it wouldn't change my position on immigration. But if you feel the need to claim that illegals have a higher crime rate, you ought to try proving it.

That includes all crime, including crime committed by illegals

If it turned out that the rate among illegals is lower than the rate for the US as a whole, that would mean that the rate among non-illegals is higher than the rate for the US as a whole.
 
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People on this site act as if immigration is the most pressing issue on voters minds, maybe it is for some in the border states, but not for many here in KY.

It might not be a big issue in Kentucky, but obviously it is a major, major issue in places like Arizona, Nevada, and Colorado (Tancredo, running on the Constitution Party ticket, clobbered the Republican candidate last election and immigration is practically his only issue) and given the news the past couple weeks, it is an issue that is high on the minds of the Republican Electorate everywhere. Rand really screwed the pooch with that conference call. Even if he genuinely is a pro-amnesty guy, he still could have handled it in a way that wouldn't have pissed off the base as badly as he did. Give the amnesty spiel yeah, but spend just as much time attacking Obama and his border failures. Rand needed to stress that nothing can happen on immigration till the border is secured, and that Obama's willful refusal to enforce the border is not only an impeachable offense, but it also makes Obama the single greatest obstacle to immigration reform becoming a reality.
 
... and Colorado (Tancredo, running on the Constitution Party ticket, clobbered the Republican candidate last election and immigration is practically his only issue)


This is the perfect expression of a pattern of immigration hawks to insist everything revolves around their pet peeve. Tancredo whipped Maes (the Republican) because Maes turned out to be a resume fraud. He barely managed 11% in the general election (just enough to keep the GOP from losing their automatic place on future ballots). Ironically, Maes only won the GOP primary because the heavily-favored front-runner McInnis was caught up in a plagiarism scandal (plagiarism? - hmmm).

If you want a better idea of how one-issue Tancredo is faring in 2014 Colorado, look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_gubernatorial_election,_2014
 
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I didn't know that. My understanding was that minarchists prefer a minimal state that includes borders and mutual defense. Do you have a good reference link?

Traditionally speaking, minarchism provides for police, military, and courts. Borders would fit in that definition, but immigration controls would require another layer of bureaucracy somewhere, which would take that state from a 'minimal' state to something other than a minimal state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minarchism
 
Tell me how the government acquires its resources designed to "protect" borders? Pretty sure it's through involuntary, coercive taxation which violates the NAP.

If you want to argue for restrictive immigration matters, fine, but do not use the NAP as a means to defend your position.

Confusion of issues. The state (from a minarchist standpoint, at least) has a legitimate delegated power to defend rights to life, liberty and property, which would include defending the borders. Whether it is, at a particular point in time, deriving resources to exercise its legitimate powers through illegitimate means is a different question, because that coercion does not change the innate legitimacy of the delegated power of state. Tax coercion applies to perhaps de-legitimizing ALL expressions of state power, not just over protective borders. But even in that case, that power, in and of itself, is not illegitimate.

Is the court system innately invalid or violative of the NAP, because of taxes? No, so neither is any other valid state power, because of taxes. For a libertarian to say the state has legitimate powers at all, is the same thing as saying those powers are compliant with NAP, so yes, I will continue to note NAP is consistent with protecting the borders, because it is a legitimate power of the state. What is not innately consistent with NAP is the aggression of the population that does not enter into contract to become Americans by completing the immigration process, yet imposes itself on Americans by expecting involuntary access to American resources and protections.
 
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Traditionally speaking, minarchism provides for police, military, and courts. Borders would fit in that definition, but immigration controls would require another layer of bureaucracy somewhere, which would take that state from a 'minimal' state to something other than a minimal state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minarchism

A minimal state is that which is no larger, and no smaller than that needed to defend and protect basic individual rights. A state encompassing a larger territory or population than another will express that "minimal" status in a statistically larger way than a state with a smaller geography or population. The US is always going to be a 'larger' state than that of Luxembourg, on that basis, while both could still be defined as 'minimal' if they were no larger than as described above. So a larger bureaucracy to support the border protection function is consistent with a minimal state, so long as it is no larger than needed to perform its function.
 
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