Rand Introduces the Life at Conception Act:

[MrGoose]

I feel like arguing for Rand on this issue would be the same as democrats trying to justify Obama's stance on drones, gay marriage (before he changed his mind), and NDAA indefinite detention.

 

[Brett85]

How do you determine if a mother's life is in danger? You have to get a doctor to sign off on that. Well there are tons of cases doctors cant diagnose, so you would be subjecting many mothers to danger.

There is no perfect solution, but banning abortion would still be better than allowing over 1 million babies to be murdered every single year.

 

[Brett85]

I feel like arguing for Rand on this issue would be the same as democrats trying to justify Obama's stance on drones, gay marriage (before he changed his mind), and NDAA indefinite detention.

Why? Libertarians have always been divided on the abortion issue. Many libertarians believe in defending both life and liberty. Indeed, the government exists to defend life, liberty, and property.

 

[MrGoose]

Why? Libertarians have always been divided on the abortion issue. Many libertarians believe in defending both life and liberty. Indeed, the government exists to defend life, liberty, and property.

I suppose. I guess it's not as bad as I originally thought. Millions really believe that abortion is murder. My only beef is that it would most certainly lead women to back ally abortions and whatnot. Like what is said before, it'll reel in social conservatives.

 

[Brett85]

My only beef is that it would most certainly lead women to back ally abortions and whatnot.

That's what the abortion rights advocates always claim, but what actual proof is there that there was widespread illegal abortions prior to Roe v. Wade? I've never seen anyone actually present any evidence that proves that claim.

 

[osan]

From a press release -

Not only boo-hiss - this is career suicide if he has oval office aspirations.

NOT smart.

That aside, need I point out that compared with the great raft of real issues we have standing before us, that this is such a non-issue? This indicates to me that Rand Paul is not adept at prioritizing at the very least. It could indicate something far darker and more threatening as well.

How about we get this out of control "government" mob on a very tight leash first?

How about dismantling the Fed and returning us to actual money?

How about extricating ourselves from all formal foreign entanglements?

How about putting this nation on a REAL free market footing?

How about putting our foreign trade agreements in their graves, in perpetuity?

How about we slam the living hell out of Chinese imports with countervailing tariffs until such time as China abandons their slave labor economy?

How about putting ends to our wars of foreign aggression?

How about deballing the military industrial complex?

How about ending the taxation state?

How about dismantling the defacto fascist state?

How about limiting ALL elected and appointed terms to ONE, from president on down to dog catcher?

How about establishing actual, real-deal private property protections?

How about ending the drug war?

How about eliminating all crimes mala prohibita?

How about eliminating all forcibly funded social programs?

How about instituting restrictions, regulations, accountability, and grave punishments for all "government" employees who violate human rights in the course of their official duties?

How about eliminating all governmental immunities?

How about dismantling every police force in the nation and getting back to sheriffs as the only peace officers?

We could go on down the list for a ways yet, but perhaps the point is made?

Abortion is a BULLSHIT non-issue when compared with even the least of the real issues I have listed above and the fact that Rand Paul has chosen to focus on this utter nonsense is one of the reasons I do not trust him and do not esteem him even 10% as highly as I do his father.

Is this nonsense bill the result of an astounding lack of common sense? Is it pandering, in which case he can go scratch in my book? Has he been bought off as a controlled opposition element?

Anybody not finding this worrisome is missing something important... like maybe brains.

 

[anaconda]

Not sure where you're finding that in Exodus 21, but you're correct that a Federal law isn't constitutional. Hence why barring an amendment it should be state-level.

1) I don't know about the biblical quote. I just copy-and-pasted the commenter's comment. I also included the link.

2) If a federal law isn't constitutional, how can the states enact such a law?

Thanks.

 

[osan]

Ok, so we close down abortion clinics, then women who want abortions have to go to shady blackmarket clinics to get abortions. Some get infected and die, the women we catch we throw in prison for life.

No, they will go to MX and Canada... or Europe. Then what? Enact the "Check The Twat Of Every American Woman Leaving The USA Act" to make sure every pregger returns that way or with a child who will then be DNA tested to ensure it is a match to the mother?

The more one peels this onion the more immeasurably stupid it becomes.

Sounds great Rand.

You surely got that part right. It is this brand of idiocy and the fact that it arises EVERY TIME at just the right moment that leaves me wondering about just how it is that the world actually works. That wonderment also leaves me with this terribly uneasy feeling about the prospects for humanity's future.

Until I see something substantially more impressive from Rand Paul than his little filibuster gag, he is nothing to me. Now, if perchance he wants to call me for lunch - I will buy - and explain to me in great detail a long term strategy that makes sense and wherein stunts like this idiotic bill actually make some rational sense, I may be moved to change my opinion. I won't be holding my breath for that call. And he can get my number any time he wants it. All he has to do is ask Thomas Massie for it. Until then, I remain skeptical with a bent toward dismissal, but I will do what I can to retain an open mind. I do, after all, have a fair to middling understanding of the subtleties of strategy.

 

[Brett85]

That aside, need I point out that compared with the great raft of real issues we have standing before us, that this is such a non-issue? This indicates to me that Rand Paul is not adept at prioritizing at the very least. It could indicate something far darker and more threatening as well.

If you're someone who believes that abortion is murder, then there can't be any issue more important than this.

Ending this is pretty important.

http://www.wrtl.org/abortion/pictures.aspx#abortionpics

 

[tttppp]

There is no perfect solution, but banning abortion would still be better than allowing over 1 million babies to be murdered every single year.

So its ok for the mother to die? Why not focus on things that would actually reduce abortion, like reducing years in school and getting kids to support themselves earlier in life? It does not help the abortion rate when college graduates cant even support themselves. You can reduce abortion without any regulations.

 

[Brett85]

So its ok for the mother to die? Why not focus on things that would actually reduce abortion, like reducing years in school and getting kids to support themselves earlier in life? It does not help the abortion rate when college graduates cant even support themselves. You can reduce abortion without any regulations.

The doctor can sign a written note allowing an abortion whenever there's a significant chance the mother could die from giving birth. The things that you mentioned wouldn't put a dent in the abortion rate.

 

[muzzled dogg]

What a waste

 

[Brett85]

What a waste

Yeah, I know. All of those wasted lives of people who could've grown up and cured cancer, could've become the next President of the United States, could've become a leader of a charity that helps millions of poor people, and so much more. What a waste of human life.

 

[CMoore]

Here is the problem I have with any law such as this one: It is impossible to know exactly when "conception" occurs. Our science is just not there yet. At some point in a pregnancy, we can say that a woman is for sure pregnant, but that is days after "conception". If a woman has not had intercourse for, oh, say, 28 days or so, we can almost say for sure she is or is not pregnant. Anything in between, it is impossible to know with the technology we possess now. So laws that talk about "conception" as some sort of bench mark make no sense. Rand being a physician, I am surprised he would go down this road.

 

[Brett85]

Here is the problem I have with any law such as this one: It is impossible to know exactly when "conception" occurs. Our science is just not there yet. At some point in a pregnancy, we can say that a woman is for sure pregnant, but that is days after "conception". If a woman has not had intercourse for, oh, say, 28 days or so, we can almost say for sure she is or is not pregnant. Anything in between, it is impossible to know with the technology we possess now. So laws that talk about "conception" as some sort of bench mark make no sense. Rand being a physician, I am surprised he would go down this road.

I think this is why Rand believes the Morning After Pill should be legal, because most likely conception hasn't actually occurred the morning after sex. But, there isn't any situation where a woman actually gets an abortion at an abortion clinic within 3-4 days of being pregnant. No one can find out they're pregnant that quickly and then get in that quickly to get an abortion. So passing a law that closes down every abortion clinic in the U.S would be a just law. Every single abortion that is performed at an abortion clinic kills an innocent human being.

 

[FriedChicken]

I think this is why Rand believes the Morning After Pill should be legal, because most likely conception hasn't actually occurred the morning after sex. But, there isn't any situation where a woman actually gets an abortion at an abortion clinic within 3-4 days of being pregnant. No one can find out they're pregnant that quickly and then get in that quickly to get an abortion. So passing a law that closes down every abortion clinic in the U.S would be a just law. Every single abortion that is performed at an abortion clinic kills an innocent human being.

I think that argument needs to be made more, it is close but slightly different than the conception basis for a law and it would eliminate most of the scenarios people use to justify keeping it legal. Just seems more effective and easy to explain I guess.

 

[FriedChicken]

I suppose. I guess it's not as bad as I originally thought. Millions really believe that abortion is murder. My only beef is that it would most certainly lead women to back ally abortions and whatnot. Like what is said before, it'll reel in social conservatives.

I agree with you about back ally abortions and Ron has actually said several times that many abortions were actually carried out in hospitals by professionals who just changed around some of the paperwork to claim the operation to be something else. So I think regardless of law the act will continue.

However I still think it should be illegal just because I'm one of those that sees the unborn as its own individual person and should be protected from violent attacks and that those who would "attack" it should be punished.

The morality of society needs to change in order for abortions to be reduced/eliminated.
Honestly ... I think a more free society would lead to being a much more responsible, informed and charitable society and that in and of itself would probably decrease abortions.

 

[tttppp]

The doctor can sign a written note allowing an abortion whenever there's a significant chance the mother could die from giving birth. The things that you mentioned wouldn't put a dent in the abortion rate.

The things I mentioned would make a biggrr dent in the abortion rate than banning it. Additionally, you have never been to a doctor before. There are tons of conditions that patients notice that doctors cant diagnose. That we will allow abortions incase of harm to the mother is bullshit. If a doctor doesnt see something, the mother is fucked.

 

[Todd]

Funny some of the responses in this thread about this subject. When Ron introduced the same legislation....crickets. Now Rand does and people threaten to bolt. LOL.

 

[jmdrake]

This is exactly what happens too. My girlfriend is from Brazil and this is what happens there. It's awful.

Women in America die at the clinics as far higher rates than you would imagine.