Raimondo calls Jon Stewart a Wimp, Wuss and Moral Coward. lol!

[Imperial]

Yes yes, I argued this same point in high school during a presentation on Truman. Invasion would've been costly, all Japanese people were mentally insane and would kamikaze into an American landing force, there would be no peace and the war would drag on, etc. I played devil's advocate for some shock value.

But really, the civilian population knew it was over by then. The military was the only part of Japan holding out, and even so, surrender proposals have been communicated with the US.. So your argument falls apart there.

The US wanted to end the war before Russia could mediate and claim influence over more territory. We put power politics over Japanese lives, and ended up conceding our unconditional surrender to the one condition the Japanese really wanted: keeping their emperor. Why the sudden change of heart? The Russian bear. But no politics should justify killing innocents.

 

[KoldKut]

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[diggronpaul]

Because that is the subject of the comments Stewart apologized for.

The subject of the apology is irrelevant.

It's the invisible hand of power that everyone is supposed to see. But seems to be too much cognitive dissonance here to openly discuss what's intended for the subconscious.

 

[iddo]

Why isn't the wholesale incineration of the Japanese cities described as blowback for the inhuman barbaric behavior of the imperial Japanese military?

Do you also condone the finale bombings after Japan surrendered? Maybe you want to go bomb them today some more, or where do you draw the line?
As mentioned in this thread, the nukes were dropped several months after Japan already agreed to surrender (the distinction is that didn't agree to unconditional surrender).

 

[iddo]

Thus your question has no meaning. Individual guilt is not a relevant factor when tribes go to war.

So would it be ok if I send some aircrafts now to nuke you and your city, because your tribe started a war with the Iraqi tribe in 2003?

 

[KoldKut]

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[rp08orbust]

Nation states are inherently collectivist. It's meaningless to try and evaluate events of WW2 from a zealously individualistic perspective. It just doesn't make any sense.

Thus your question has no meaning. Individual guilt is not a relevant factor when tribes go to war.

I'm curious as to what someone who does not consider themselves a zealous individualist is doing on this forum.

If there are no individuals in war--only tribes--then why didn't or shouldn't the US have just bombed Japan until the entire tribe was gone?

 

[youngbuck]

War is BULLSHIT collectivism. BTW, FDR saw the Pearl Harbor attack coming too. FDR AND Truman are both war criminals.

Exactly.

 

[rp08orbust]

I think people on this forum have no problem with describing the 9/11 attacks as "blowback" for U.S. actions and foreign policy. So how many of those dead workers in the towers played an active role in the U.S. policies that inspired the blowback? How many were just dumb, innocent, and unlucky?

Same reasoning can be applied to the dumb unlucky innocent japs who got cooked. Of course it is collectivist, and so what? Everything about politics, nation states, and any kind of ideological grouping is collectivist.

You are misunderstanding the concept of "blowback". Blowback does not refer to justice--it refers to unintended consequences.

The 9/11 attacks were blowback for US neocolonialism in the Middle East, but they were nevertheless unjust.

And yes, the bombing of Japan (nuclear and otherwise) was blowback for Japan's own imperialism, but it was nevertheless unjust.

 

[KoldKut]

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[Original_Intent]

The subject of the apology is irrelevant.

It's the invisible hand of power that everyone is supposed to see. But seems to be too much cognitive dissonance here to openly discuss what's intended for the subconscious.

You need to get off your high horse. Your attitude that anyone that will not discuss things on your terms and abase themselves in amazement at your ability to see thru the BS is unenlightened is wearing pretty thin.

I don't really give a shit if the bombs were dropped to inflict a psychic wound on planet Earth by a bunch of Satanists, if it was a power grab by a bunch of narcissitic war-mongers, or just to scare the crap out of the land-tenants/serfs of the world. I tend to think that there are aspects of all three and lots of other motives. But I at least honestly engage people that I am having discussions with rather than making asides to a non-existent audience that the people that you are discussing things with are obviously to stupid to comprehend your overwhelming superiority. (I have bolded the quote above in case you predictably call foul). You are obviously a bright guy. Your views and input are most welcome. But I am not going to sit back and be insulted (even if it was a throwaway insult directed at the forum in general) just because you have learned how to make a cogent point by point argument. And no, linking people to a few books and saying "When you have read these, then you will be enlightened enough to be worth talking to." does not equal making an argument.

 

[KoldKut]

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[Annihilia]

Can we please go a day without somebody accusing "cognitive dissonance"? It's starting to sound ridiculous.

 

[iddo]

What, do you think that some carefully worded moral argument will get me to agree with you that I should be nuked? Why even ask such a question?

I was trying to follow your logic.

Where did I say blowback implied "justice"?

Here:

So why all the hand-wringing and self-loathing for nuking the fuck out of those bastards? They earned every bomb.

By saying that they earned every bomb, you imply that those bombs were justified.

 

[KoldKut]

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[KoldKut]

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[LibForestPaul]

I disagree. We were attacked first, and the bomb ended that part of the war right now. Much simpler than dragging out some campaign that lasts years and years.

Moral cowardice would have been sacrificing an American life though he didn't have to.

The US told them it was coming. War sucks. Run if you can.

Yes, because Hawaii was one of the original thirteen colonies

You comments are always amusing though, thx!

 

[tonesforjonesbones]

look at it this way...all they had to do was drop two bombs...now all they have to do is say "bomb/nuke" and people freak out. They have been using "The Bomb" against us for years...tones

 

[South Park Fan]

Mass incineration of populated cities is immoral under any circumstances, full stop. It's never just to flambe babies, full stop. However, as I said before, morality doesn't really apply to nation state interaction in war.

Why should morality be suspended due to war? Doesn't that just give justification for people to commit immoral acts during wartime?

Everything is based on expediency, and ensuring that your collective survives. Quaint notions of morality take a very distant backseat to the imperative of survival. I'm quite comfortable with endorsing immoral acts, if I feel those acts are required. But at the same time I don't try to portray those immoral acts as moral in order to assuage my conscience.

How was it necessary to nuke civilian cities in a country that knew it was defeated? They didn't pose a threat to the United States, so it could hardly be described as "necessary".

This may be because as an atheist I have no expectation of being judged on an absolutist scale after I die. Therefore I don't feel a need to put a righteous spin on all my acts and choices.

Being an atheist doesn't give you justification to commit immoral acts. That's just giving atheism a bad name.

 

[iddo]

I'm quite comfortable with endorsing immoral acts, if I feel those acts are required.

It's the other way around. The arguments presented to you in this thread are that those acts were not required, and therefore were not justified. Japan agreed to surrender several months earlier, and the terms of the actual surrender (after the nukes) were not different in substance (state-religious nonsense about recognizing the sanctity of the emperor). The real purpose of dropping the nukes was related to Russia, not Japan. Also, the finale bombings occured after Japan surrendered, so obviously those warcrimes were not "required".

I would also like to point out that your use of the term "self-loathing" is more evidence of your collectivist mindset. The fact that I loathe actions taken by government officials doesn't mean that I loathe every individual that the government claims to represent, and in particular doesn't mean that I loathe myself.