Quick question

[Working Poor]

Of course you can be against both. What a ridiculous claim.

And they obviously aren't perfectly inversely correlated. You think the abortion rate was higher before schools started having sex-ed?

when I was in school abortion was still illegal and sex ed was only for students in higher grades. We did not have many unwed mothers back then. I am sure some students were having sex and some pregnancies did happen and they either got married or put the child up for adoption.

 

[Dr. Dog]

you expect people to teach or train other people for free?

No, I don't expect that. Nor do I think the vast majority of people would do that. There might be some people willing to volunteer in their free time, but I don't expect that to be anywhere more than a small minority in the education sector. We already see some of it, parents volunteer at their schools all the time. My wife used to volunteer at my daughter's school library.

...money to pay for your private schooling and voctech training has to come from somewhere,

Money for public schools has to come from somewhere.

and there are a lot of people with kids who can't afford those expenses...hence, public schools, that are paid through levy's and property taxes...

With more competition private school fees would go down. Furthermore, there are literally thousands of different scholarship funds that help families pay for private schooling. Also, if people kept the billions of dollars that government spends on public schools they would have more money to spend on private schools.

now, before you say give people the 'option', might i remind you that there is already a system working...albeit, not perfect,

I don't consider a system built on theft with exceedingly low standards and results to be working.

but private schools are expensive, and vochtech as well.

Public schools are vastly more expensive on a per-student basis than private schools.

If you think taxes are high now, if you got your way, we'd all be broke.

That makes absolutely no sense. How would eliminating tens of billions (Washington State alone spends over $10 billion per year on public education, not to mention what local government spends) from government budgets lead to higher taxes?

Parochial Schools i believe is a religious system am i right?[/QUOTE]

Yes, it's the school associated with a religious order. Most charge, but many offer scholarships to high performing kids from poorer families.

...they are under the auspices of standards that must be fair and equal along side of public education, and if one has the financial means then cool...not for everybody.

Why do standards have to be "fair and equal" to public schools? Why can't they be higher? And who will set these standards? Do you want the state setting them or do you believe the free market (parents, essentially) set them?

 

[squirl22]

Why should the government be teaching kids about sex and giving them condoms?

They shouldn't. That's the parents' responsibility. Teachers should not be doing that. It boils down to parents not doing their jobs anymore. They want the teachers to teach morality and sex education.

 

[euphemia]

Unfortunately a lot of parents never have, "The Talk" with their kids.

Neither did mine. That's really not the point. It is not the Constitutionally enumerated power of any branch of the government to teach or provide birth control to students.

 

[JK/SEA]

//

 

[JK/SEA]

No, I don't expect that. Nor do I think the vast majority of people would do that. There might be some people willing to volunteer in their free time, but I don't expect that to be anywhere more than a small minority in the education sector. We already see some of it, parents volunteer at their schools all the time. My wife used to volunteer at my daughter's school library.



Money for public schools has to come from somewhere.



With more competition private school fees would go down. Furthermore, there are literally thousands of different scholarship funds that help families pay for private schooling. Also, if people kept the billions of dollars that government spends on public schools they would have more money to spend on private schools.



I don't consider a system built on theft with exceedingly low standards and results to be working.



Public schools are vastly more expensive on a per-student basis than private schools.



That makes absolutely no sense. How would eliminating tens of billions (Washington State alone spends over $10 billion per year on public education, not to mention what local government spends) from government budgets lead to higher taxes?

Parochial Schools i believe is a religious system am i right?

the logistics and costs of implementing your 'NEW' system would offset any costs that Public Schools incur.

 

[Dr. Dog]

the logistics and costs of implementing your 'NEW' system would offset any costs that Public Schools incur.

What's your basis for that?

 

[JK/SEA]

What's your basis for that?

scholarships?..we have that already.. private school teachers would want raises, shuffling kids around, kids falling through the cracks, on and on...can of worms. You'd be better off working to make the current system better.

The only big problem i see is the government involvment in this... Dept.of ED should go away, and let education be left to local.

 

[Dr. Dog]

private school teachers would want raises, shuffling kids around, kids falling through the cracks, on and on...can of worms.

You're describing the public school system pretty well.

You'd be better off working to make the current system better.

Statism isn't the answer. Statism is the problem.

 

[JK/SEA]

You're describing the public school system pretty well.



Statism isn't the answer. Statism is the problem.

ok, look..i'm not going to try and defend the entire public school system...yep, it has flaws. It also has a ton of kids coming from low income, and immigrant family's, some of whom can barely speak english, or come from broken homes, have disabilities, poor nutrition, ad naseum...these kids are hurting, and it hurts the bottomline line with regards to grade points and the impression it gives to people not in the loop like yourself. Wailing away on this serves no useful purpose. Maybe you should get a teaching degree and help out instead of complaining...i will however defend what my wife does, along with the staff at her school...

statism...bah...just words with zero connection to the reality of it all. Goodluck getting your pie in the sky fantasy education system...

 

[Dr. Dog]

ok, look..i'm not going to try and defend the entire public school system...yep, it has flaws. It also has a ton of kids coming from low income, and immigrant family's, some of whom can barely speak english, or come from broken homes, have disabilities, poor nutrition, ad naseum...these kids are hurting, and it hurts the bottomline line with regards to grade points and the impression it gives to people not in the loop like yourself. Wailing away on this serves no useful purpose. Maybe you should get a teaching degree and help out instead of complaining...i will however defend what my wife does, along with the staff at her school...

See, your arguments are nothing but emotions-based. Instead of wanting to work towards something better for those kids who can barely speak english, come from broken homes, have disabilities, poor nutrition, etc, you settle for the status quo because it benefits you. That's fine, but don't pretend to be pro-liberty on this issue.

Public schools are one of the biggest problems with America. They are hugely wasteful, have horrible results, and perpetuate the replacement of the family with the state.

statism...bah...just words with zero connection to the reality of it all. Goodluck getting your pie in the sky fantasy education system...

Well the reality is I'd never send my kids to public school. My daughter is in kindergarten and she'll never be sent to a public school. I'm glad I never had to go to public school, either.

 

[JK/SEA]

See, your arguments are nothing but emotions-based. Instead of wanting to work towards something better for those kids who can barely speak english, come from broken homes, have disabilities, poor nutrition, etc, you settle for the status quo because it benefits you. That's fine, but don't pretend to be pro-liberty on this issue.

Public schools are one of the biggest problems with America. They are hugely wasteful, have horrible results, and perpetuate the replacement of the family with the state.



Well the reality is I'd never send my kids to public school. My daughter is in kindergarten and she'll never be sent to a public school. I'm glad I never had to go to public school, either.

see, thats the problem with your critique. You don't know what goes on in schools like the one my wife works at. Its a tough job. Not for everybody. Grown men come in and try but fold over the enormity of the job and you think shifting money around here and there is the solution....

cookie cutter mentality like the one you're promoting is silly at best. Charter Schools are getting money from public ed. coffers and they aren't getting results like you think they are. Private Schools, and competition is an idea, but hasn't been tried in reality yet, so there really is no stat that really shows it would work. Just putting an idea on paper is not a solution. I'm glad your folks had the money to get you educated by not using public money.

Frankly, i think Public Education is a good way to educate our children. So is homeschooling, so is private, but the bottomline is kids need to be educated one way or another. Sorry you think i'm too emotional. Educating kids is emotional. I'm on the inside loop, and i hear shit everyday about the types of kids in her particular school that pass through there. Every year she gets past students that come and visit. Many are now successful adults, and i'm sure this happens hundreds, probably thousands of times a year in public schools across the country. Pro-Liberty?...yes, i am. You donate to Rand yet today?

 

[helmuth_hubener]

Frankly, i think Public Education is a good way to educate our children.

But they're not educating our children -- by your own account they're educating other people's children. Children of illegal immigrants, from all across the world, who cannot even speak English. Gee, maybe that might cause a little problem? Maybe that might suck up tremendous amounts of resources and cause the quality of education to be much lower for those who can speak English, who aren't from broken homes, and whose parents actually do take enough interest in them to feed them? Ya think?

How about we not educate all those people's children (there's an unlimited supply of them!), how about we let them go back to Mexico and Somalia and Guatemala.

Monopoly state schools are bad enough (plenty bad!) when trying to educate this country's children. When given a different mandate, to serve as a day care center for the children of the world? Ha, ha; good luck. Your wife is working against incredibly difficult challenges, just as you say. But you're actually under-selling the difficulties, not going far enough: the truth is they're impossibly difficult challenges. Unsolvable challenges.

Dr. Dog is absolutely right: End the monopoly state day care camps. End them, end them, end them. And then, you ask, how will people be educated? Well, before I give any answer, let me just ask, JK/SEA: Are you familiar with the Khan Academy?

 

[JK/SEA]

But they're not educating our children -- by your own account they're educating other people's children. Children of illegal immigrants, from all across the world, who cannot even speak English. Gee, maybe that might cause a little problem? Maybe that might suck up tremendous amounts of resources and cause the quality of education to be much lower for those who can speak English, who aren't from broken homes, and whose parents actually do take enough interest in them to feed them? Ya think?

How about we not educate all those people's children (there's an unlimited supply of them!), how about we let them go back to Mexico and Somalia and Guatemala.

Monopoly state schools are bad enough (plenty bad!) when trying to educate this country's children. When given a different mandate, to serve as a day care center for the children of the world? Ha, ha; good luck. Your wife is working against incredibly difficult challenges, just as you say. But you're actually under-selling the difficulties, not going far enough: the truth is they're impossibly difficult challenges. Unsolvable challenges.

Dr. Dog is absolutely right: End the monopoly state day care camps. End them, end them, end them. And then, you ask, how will people be educated? Well, before I give any answer, let me just ask, JK/SEA: Are you familiar with the Khan Academy?

it is what it is. Kinda like a forest fire. You go in and try and put it out, and figure out why later. Meanwhile, the people that do the grunt work do the best they can. Try and save as many trees you can. Is their a better way to put out fires besides getting people to go in and put it out?...maybe...meanwhile, people keep having kids...(the irony, especially today personally for me..lol..)..that shouldn't, but thats a different argument left for society to figure out later, but still, teachers are the true heroes.

Khan Academy. I'll look it up later.