Putin The Guilty

[vita3]

Osan,

What do you think is the best realistic scenario for Ukraine going forward?

 

[Anti Federalist]

Osan,

What do you think is the best realistic scenario for Ukraine going forward?

I can't speak for [MENTION=25257]osan[/MENTION] ...but me?

I think the best choice is a negotiated cease fire, let Russians have the Donbass area, all other lines remain the same and a commitment from Ukraine not to join NATO.

 

[TheCount]

I think the best choice is a negotiated cease fire, let Russians have the Donbass area, all other lines remain the same and a commitment from Ukraine not to join NATO.

Why would they do that? It all but guarantees a third Russian invasion.

 

[acptulsa]

I can't speak for [MENTION=25257]osan[/MENTION] ...but me?

I think the best choice is a negotiated cease fire, let Russians have the Donbass area, all other lines remain the same and a commitment from Ukraine not to join NATO.

He asked for a realistic scenario.

1. Biden wants a war, because the U.S. has never failed to reelect a president in the middle of one provided the guy ran, he can tell voters it'll fix the economy, and the MIC.

2. NATO is a sacred cow.

3. Donbas is where most of Ukraine's gas is, and the crooks in Washington are vested in keeping Ukraine's energy companies profitable.

So, to be blunt, your proposal is much too reasonable to be realistic. What's your second choice?

 

[Contumacious]

What's the purpose of qualifying a military operation as "surgical" if you're referring to the killing of innocent civilians?

That is PURE UNADULTERATED BULLS.H.I.T.

Only the CIA and its FAKE NEWS MEDIA report that bullcrap .

Luckily there are some decent human beings in the Pentagon who discredit the propaganda:


"But on Tuesday, the Pentagon took the bold step of leaking two stories to reporters that contradict those tales.

“Russia’s conduct in the brutal war tells a different story than the widely accepted view that Vladimir Putin is intent on demolishing Ukraine and inflicting maximum civilian damage—and it reveals the Russian leader’s strategic balancing act,” reported Newsweek in an article entitled, “Putin’s Bombers Could Devastate Ukraine But He’s Holding Back. Here’s Why.

 

[Contumacious]

I can't speak for [MENTION=25257]osan[/MENTION] ...but me?

I think the best choice is a negotiated cease fire, let Russians have the Donbass area, all other lines remain the same and a commitment from Ukraine not to join NATO.

Concur,

Since 2014 the ETHNIC RUSSIANS who live East of the Dnipro River were labeled as "terrorists" and subjected to genocide. That Region , including Crimea must be returmed to Russia.

 

[Anti Federalist]

So, to be blunt, your proposal is much too reasonable to be realistic. What's your second choice?

I haven't got one.

And for all their blathering, the ruling class does not have one either.

So.

I'm sticking to my first response and reaction: not my monkeys, not my circus.

There's no "good guys" here, unless it can be proved beyond any shadow of doubt that there are, in fact, US funded bio labs working GoF research on deadly pathogens and Putin was motivated by this, to invade and destroy them.

In that case, well:

 

[acptulsa]

I haven't got one.

Hm. Do you suppose there's a way to make your first choice realistic?

 

[69360]

Osan,

What do you think is the best realistic scenario for Ukraine going forward?

Meet the Russian demands and end the conflict. The demands are reasonable.

 

[TheTexan]

Why would they do that? It all but guarantees a third Russian invasion.

Putin has said as early as 2004 he is only interested in Crimea and Donbass. Even if West Ukraine were to join NATO, he is only interested in Crimea and Donbass.

He has been consistent on this matter for 20 years.

If you honestly believe that Putin will just continue invading west then you are either trolling or just stupid.

 

[acptulsa]

Putin has said as early as 2004 he is only interested in Crimea and Donbass. Even if West Ukraine were to join NATO, he is only interested in Crimea and Donbass.

He has been consistent on this matter for 20 years.

If you honestly believe that Putin will just continue invading countries then you are either trolling or just stupid.

I disagree. He could definitely be trolling and stupid.

 

[TheTexan]

I disagree. He could definitely be trolling and stupid.

Lol true.

 

[TheTexan]

From 2008:
https://www.rferl.org/a/1144087.html

"The Moscow Times" reported on April 8 that President Vladimir Putin said on April 4 at the meeting of the NATO-Russia Council in Bucharest that Russia will work to break up Ukraine if that country joins NATO (see "RFE/RL Newsline," April 2, 3, 4, and 7, 2008). Citing a report in the daily "Kommersant" from April 7, "The Moscow Times" suggested that an unidentified foreign delegate described Putin as "losing his temper" at the meeting and saying to U.S. President George W. Bush: "do you understand, George, that Ukraine is not even a state!" Putin reportedly claimed that Russia will encourage the separation of eastern Ukraine and the Crimea from Ukraine if that country joins NATO.

-------
And for clarification on the "not even a state" this provides context

Putin reportedly declared to President Bush, “Ukraine isn't even a state. What is Ukraine? Part of its territory is Eastern Europe, and part of it, a significant part, was given by us!” (The Crimean peninsula had been part of Russia until 1954, when Premier Nikita Khrushchev gave it to Ukraine—a largely symbolic gesture, since both Russia and Ukraine belonged to the U.S.S.R.)

 

[osan]

I have not found this to be true at all. Western propaganda would have you believe this to be true, but the facts on the ground do not support it.

What facts? I see none. And the point is actually irrelevant to the real issue of Ukraine's business, not Russia's.

This is just ignorant.

Donbass has suffered war and genocide at the hands of the Ukrainians for 8 years. For no reason than spite and pure hatred. Ukraine is not some innocent victim here who was attacked out of nowhere. They are murderous fascists who are getting what they deserve.

Irrelevant. But if "years" is the standard, what of Ukraine's 75 under the Soviets' tyrannical boot heel? I've excused nothing done by Ukraine, but hold Russia to the same standard of behavior.

Were Russians murdering "ethnic" Ukrainians once again, as they did for years upon years, would you cheer Ukraine rolling tanks into Russia? On what basis?

You seem to be missing the real point continually, so I will try once again: Ukraine is run by tyrants. Russia is run by tyrants. In this respect, they are equals. That leaves us with the notion of "national sovereignty", a horse-shit concept that only holds validity in the context of the presumed validity of the nation-state. I do not hold with that presumption, and yet here we are, the world wading in a bucket of feces. Therefore, given the crap reality to which we are all subjected as de-facto slaves to those who see themselves as elite lords over the earth, the lesser evil here is the notion of national sovereignty, which means Ukraine's tyrannies are their concern, no matter how many people they murder. Tyranny is the global rule, not the exception, and it goes on every day, all over the world, whether bald-faced as we find in Russia, Ukraine, China, the Muslim-dominated nations, etc., or in painted-over fashion such as we find in the good old USA where cops shoot unarmed people in their backs, yet skate, for example.

All you seem to be doing, if I read you right, is swapping one tyrant for another. Tyrant NAZIs tyranting in Donbass. OK, bad bad NAZIs, injuring and murdering presumably innocent civilians. What is Putin doing, other than murdering innocent civilians? Same stink, different steaming pile.

Don't want to be invaded by Russia? Don't be murderous Nazi fascists. Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania weren't invaded when they joined NATO. But then again, those countries weren't murdering ethnic Russians in cold-blood in the name of literal Nazi fascism.

Why stop there? Why not go all the way and break out the girls with big tits and pom-poms to cheer the raving maniac brigade as it kills its way across whatever chunk of God-forsaken earth you care to name? Don't want SWAT team breaking down your door? Don't grow those cannabis plants or have that single-shot .22 in your closet, or do anything at all that goes against the tyrants whim and caprice. Surrender yourself utterly to Themme and maybe we let you live. For Pete's sake man - what is it for which you seem to be arguing?

That aside, the "ethnic" Russians are NOT Russian citizens. Were it otherwise, Putin might have a leg on which to stand. But they are Ukrainian citizens. Am I excusing Ukrainian treatment of these people? No. But I am equally intolerant of Putin's actions. He is no whit better than those against whom he wages war. Were Biden to go on a campaign against the ethnic Russians in Coney Island (and believe me, there's a shitload of them there), would it be OK for Putin to send in his troops? Let us at least be consistent in our logic, lest utter chaos descend upon our minds.

I really don't see how anyone can fail to see the truth that is so blatantly displaying itself to the entire world. THEY ARE ALL CRIMINALS. Every last fucking one of them, from Russia to Ukraine to American, and so on across the globe. A hive of ranting, murderously covetous, paranoid lunatics peeling the hide off the human race in piecemeal fashion, and all we do is sit back and take sides with one homicidal cult, or another.

You have to be kidding. We, the humans, are painted into a corner and have no idea how to get out without getting the eternally wet and poison-laced colorant all over our bare feet. It's almost comical. In fact, I bet I could write a fair to middling screen- or stage-play, were I motivated to do so. We're THAT far 'round the bend, and i mean that most literally and emphatically. We are being driven down a chute like cattle by people who are off their heads, and all the majority seem able to do is cheer the one driver, or the other. Either way, we're headed for the same killing floor.

Cue Robert Johnson's "Killing Floor Blues" in 4... 3...

And it's always the innocent who take it in the neck. We never learn... except when you're a circus freak like myself.

 

[TheTexan]

What facts? I see none. And the point is actually irrelevant to the real issue of Ukraine's business, not Russia's.

The facts are available. If you look. It is not however easy, but the truth rarely is.

Irrelevant. But if "years" is the standard, what of Ukraine's 75 under the Soviets' tyrannical boot heel? I've excused nothing done by Ukraine, but hold Russia to the same standard of behavior.

You fail to recognize your own contradictions. As before, in earlier this thread, when confronted you take a tone of neutrality. They are both evil, you say. But this position you claim to take is betrayed in the most obvious fashion by anyone reading this thread. You have devoted an entire thread to the guilt of putin. Where is the thread on the guilt of zelensky?

Do not pretend neutrality.

You have chosen a side.

You have chosen a side, while being admittedly ignorant of the facts.

"What facts? I see none"

 

[ClaytonB]

The facts are available. If you look. It is not however easy, but the truth rarely is.

I don't know, I'm still not actually convinced that there is anything at all actually happening in Ukraine right now. The Russians can do mass propaganda disinfo with the best of them, hell, our guys learned it from their guys. So if Biden's intel-agency midgets invented a psyop circus in Ukraine to distract from the failure of the doomsday virus to bring about the "Great Reset", I don't see why Russia's intel would even bother "exposing" it and, instead, just use the opportunity to play along and score war-hero points at home.

Or is that "too crazy" for Clown World? As though anything could be at this point...

 

[TheTexan]

That aside, the "ethnic" Russians are NOT Russian citizens. Were it otherwise, Putin might have a leg on which to stand. But they are Ukrainian citizens.

You know who would say such a thing? A tyrant.

You claim to oppose tyranny, yet you hold no respect for the right to self determination.

"These are Ukrainians", you say? Says who?

The Ukrainian right sector, Azov, and many in the Ukraine government, have taken the position explicitly (spoken and admitted) or implicitly (passing anti-Russian laws) that these people are NOT Ukrainian.

Their goal is to push them out and keep their land.

Jesus fucking christ osan, if you want to see a tyrant, merely look in the mirror.

 

[TheTexan]

I don't know, I'm still not actually convinced that there is anything at all actually happening in Ukraine right now. The Russians can do mass propaganda disinfo with the best of them, hell, our guys learned it from their guys. So if Biden's intel-agency midgets invented a psyop circus in Ukraine to distract from the failure of the doomsday virus to bring about the "Great Reset", I don't see why Russia's intel would even bother "exposing" it and, instead, just use the opportunity to play along and score war-hero points at home.

Or is that "too crazy" for Clown World? As though anything could be at this point...

I can guarantee that stuff is actually happening, but nonetheless yours is a reasonable position to take. There is no problem with bring ignorant, as long as you're aware of your own ignorance.

And just my opinion, Russian disinfo isn't what it's cracked up to be. It's not even in the same league as US disinfo.

 

[ClaytonB]

I can guarantee that stuff is actually happening, but nonetheless yours is a reasonable position to take. There is no problem with bring ignorant, as long as you're aware of your own ignorance.

Sure, stuff is happening. I think "stuff" has been happening all along since 2014. "A friend" signed up on a Ukrainian dating site circa 2020 and one of the women he had contact with informed him that she was "in an active war zone"... but Ukraine was supposed to be all puppies and sunshine at that time. So, we're definitely being lied to on a massive scale, uh, which is like saying "the sky is blue" at this point.

And just my opinion, Russian disinfo isn't what it's cracked up to be. It's not even in the same league as US disinfo.

You're entitled to your opinion but I'm reminded of all those Kung Fu movies where the Apprentice goes away and earns his chops out in the real world then, encountering his old Master, scoffs at his frailty and incompetence, and challenges him to a fight. How does that plot usually play out?

 

[TheTexan]

Were Biden to go on a campaign against the ethnic Russians in Coney Island (and believe me, there's a shitload of them there), would it be OK for Putin to send in his troops? Let us at least be consistent in our logic, lest utter chaos descend upon our minds.

For the sake of your own edification regarding the right to self determination, I will address this specifically.

It is a complex topic with many considerations, but ultimately it boils down to this:

When someone (anyone) secedes, the default position (for any non-tyrant) has to be:

How can we make this work?

The tyrant's default position, in contrast is:

How can we crush them under our boot?

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I know very little about Coney Island but on brief research it has a population of 24,000 and a Russian population of about 40%.

As I am not a tyrant, if the Russians in Coney Island were to secede, I would ask: How can we make this work?

1) As they represent only 40% of Coney Island, is there a smaller region of coney island that is more densely populated with Russians they can choose to secede with?

2) The US will understandably have concerns regarding military weaponry and activities around this region. What agreements can we make to make this secession work?

3) And so on.

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If Coney Island were to secede, and the US gave it an honest effort with actual good faith negotation, then Putin would have no right to intervene. (regardless of whether the US recognizes the secession or not)

If Coney Island were to secede, and the US by default just decided to crush them under their boot, then Putin, or anyone has the right to intervene, to the extent and scope necessary, to help them.


(As far as countries murdering people in their own countries that havent seceded - I would see it as a domestic dispute. As with any domestic dispute, I don't see any reason for anyone to get involved, as long as the disputing parties remain of their of free will, in the same union.)

-----------------------------------------

How can we make this work

vs

How can we crush them under our boot

------------------------------------------

It won't always be possible for someone to secede.

But anyone who is not a tyrant, must at least give it a honest assessment, of how it can be made to work.

I don't know enough about the Russians in Coney Island to say whether or not it can be made to work.

But I do know, that the Donbass region, is a very reasonable secession, and there is little to no reason why it can not be made to work.

Ukraine would just rather crush them under their boot.