Preparing for the PAW (Post Apocalyptic World)

i pray for the sake of everyone who reads this thread that i am not the only one who has a problem with this statement:

"Weapons will be very important. Do not underestimate the utility of the .22 rifle! you can get 1000 rounds of .22 LR for $20 and they don't make a whole lot of noise (which draws a lot of attention!)"


A .22 rifle doesn't make enough noise to get noticed, but a 9mm pistol will bring down the evil hordes??????????


have you ever fired a gun that wasn't attached to a nintendo????


i'm sorry, but wow... seriously? i fully agree with the utility of a .22, but to say that it doesn't make a whole lot of noise just devastates your credibility...

they make more than enough noise to "draw attention..."

unless you grew up watching movies where people hunted all day with .22's, but stepping on a TWIG alerted the evil monster to where the good guys were... :confused:
 
i pray for the sake of everyone who reads this thread that i am not the only one who has a problem with this statement:

"Weapons will be very important. Do not underestimate the utility of the .22 rifle! you can get 1000 rounds of .22 LR for $20 and they don't make a whole lot of noise (which draws a lot of attention!)"


A .22 rifle doesn't make enough noise to get noticed, but a 9mm pistol will bring down the evil hordes??????????


have you ever fired a gun that wasn't attached to a nintendo????


i'm sorry, but wow... seriously? i fully agree with the utility of a .22, but to say that it doesn't make a whole lot of noise just devastates your credibility...

they make more than enough noise to "draw attention..."

unless you grew up watching movies where people hunted all day with .22's, but stepping on a TWIG alerted the evil monster to where the good guys were... :confused:

Your posts today are pretty abrasive.

The OP shoots .556 and .308. Relative to those chamberings, a .22 is a whisper. Hell, relative to my .45, a .22 is a whisper.

Outdoor shooting a .22... crack crack

Outdoor shooting a .308 BOOM BOON

big difference.
 
i pray for the sake of everyone who reads this thread that i am not the only one who has a problem with this statement:

"Weapons will be very important. Do not underestimate the utility of the .22 rifle! you can get 1000 rounds of .22 LR for $20 and they don't make a whole lot of noise (which draws a lot of attention!)"


A .22 rifle doesn't make enough noise to get noticed, but a 9mm pistol will bring down the evil hordes??????????


have you ever fired a gun that wasn't attached to a nintendo????


i'm sorry, but wow... seriously? i fully agree with the utility of a .22, but to say that it doesn't make a whole lot of noise just devastates your credibility...

they make more than enough noise to "draw attention..."

unless you grew up watching movies where people hunted all day with .22's, but stepping on a TWIG alerted the evil monster to where the good guys were... :confused:

When you are in the PAW hunting rabbit for survival, you aren't exactly evading NVA in the bush. :rolleyes:

Depending on the model .22 you are shooting (a Ruger 10/22 is a lot louder than a Marlin .22, for instance) the sound of a .22 can get utterly lost in "woods noises" at around 150 to 200 yards in dense forest.

And as to choosing a .22 over a 9mm, if you shoot a rabbit with a 9mm there won't be that much of it left to eat, whereas with a .22 there won't really be a lot of damage at all. Not to mention, a .22 with a scope can hit a rabbit in the head at 75 yards with no problem, but a 9mm pistol will have to be within 25 yards or less to guarantee a body hit.

And yes, a 9mm is a LOT louder than a .22 LR -- especially a Marlin .22
 
I'd choose a 22 for hunting small game anyday, numerous reasons, mostly stated already, but it will be lighter for cross country scrambling.....
 
What this thread needs is useful information about subsistence farming, or links to good sites.
 
When you are in the PAW hunting rabbit for survival, you aren't exactly evading NVA in the bush. :rolleyes:

Depending on the model .22 you are shooting (a Ruger 10/22 is a lot louder than a Marlin .22, for instance) the sound of a .22 can get utterly lost in "woods noises" at around 150 to 200 yards in dense forest.

And as to choosing a .22 over a 9mm, if you shoot a rabbit with a 9mm there won't be that much of it left to eat, whereas with a .22 there won't really be a lot of damage at all. Not to mention, a .22 with a scope can hit a rabbit in the head at 75 yards with no problem, but a 9mm pistol will have to be within 25 yards or less to guarantee a body hit.

And yes, a 9mm is a LOT louder than a .22 LR -- especially a Marlin .22

So true, my .22lr pistol is a heck of a lot louder than my Marlin Model 60 .22lr.

I don't like to shoot the pistol without hearing protection whereas my Marlin Rifle is hardly a pop when fired. In the PAW, one could easily bring down large game with a .22lr if they were shining with a Maglite and aiming for the two bright spots. A head shot doesn't care if you used a .45 or a .22, the two work just as well.

I've gone out at night with a Maglite and seen those two bright spots deer make and they are usually only 75 yards out. I could easily aim at the two bright spots (eyes) and fire a couple of rounds. I'm pretty sure I would bring down the deer without hardly making any noise at all.
 
Maybe I should post this in the Ron Paul Rifles, but this thread inspired me to actually buy the Remington Model 597 that I've looked at the past two times I was in my sporting goods store. I'll post an actual pic later, but here's a stock pic:

smsil_597.jpg


$150 with a decent barrel, and I added a 30-round magazine.
 
Thanks Gunny! I have settled into ZH forums thanks to a previous post. Keep these coming, this forum needed some practical info.
 
Ah, great choice. Nice game getter and plinkomatic.

Master the irons first BEFORE you go scope and start itching for a trigger job (the mods disease that infects all .22 rifle shooters)
 
Making Sourdough Starter

Sometimes we don't have the convenience of being able to get yeast at the store and have to find other ways to raise bread.

I found this web site with the following instructions on how to make Sourdough Starter. I'm sure there are other web sites with more information on this subject but this is probably enough to get people informed as to how to make bread without the option of store bought bread yeast.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/53832/how_to_make_sourdough_starter.html?page=2&cat=22

These directions will take you through the process of making the simplest sourdough starter. First, combine 2 tablespoons of whole wheat flour and 1.5 tablespoons of warm water in the bottom of a plastic or glass container, preferably a bowl with a wide mouth so that it will be easier to stir later. Cover your bowl loosely with plastic wrap, then let it sit at room temperature for a full twenty four hours. After the first waiting period, add another 2 TBSP flour and 1.5 TBSP water, and let your sourdough starter sit untouched for another full day. Continue to repeat the process of adding ingredients and letting them ferment overnight until you’ve had your sourdough starter going for a total of seven days. Congratulations! You’ve just created your first full, vibrant batch of sourdough starter. That’s all there is to it. Now, you can use your starter to bake a loaf of bread, or you can “grow” it according to the directions below.
Making Sourdough starter

Growing Your Starter

Because sourdough starter contains a type of yeast made up of living organisms, if you feed a starter new materials, it will reproduce and increase. To “grow” your starter into a bigger batch, just add more flour and water. In twenty four hours, the organisms in your sourdough starter will have thoroughly incorporated these new materials, lending them the same taste and texture as the rest of the batch. You can add as much “food” to your starter as you want, so long as you follow the proportion of one generous of cup of flour to a cup of water. Stir gently, but don’t worry about mixing the ingredients too thoroughly; leaving a few lumps of flour is fine, as these will simply get digested by the starter.

Keeping A Starter

To preserve your sourdough starter, keep it in your refrigerator in a plastic container. Don’t seal the mixture completely, as the micro-organisms in your starter need oxygen in order to survive. However, it is important to cover the mixture so that it doesn’t dry out in your fridge. To best protect your sourdough starter, loosely drape a layer of plastic wrap over the top of the container. Stored this way, sourdough starter can last untouched for up to a month. Whenever you want to use some of your starter, just “grow” it according to the directions above, then leave some in the fridge for next time. If you grow your starter once a month, you can keep it going for decades!

It might not be a bad idea to print a copy of this information and keep it with your food stores.
 
Gunny, just a kind reminder. You haven't yet posted your "Food" section post.
 
Gunny, just a kind reminder. You haven't yet posted your "Food" section post.

I appreciate that -- I have been going nuts with the Primary and a GOP meeting yesterday, so I am now in the process of composing it as we speak. ;-)

Thanks, and you can expect to see it here by this afternoon.
 
Preparing for the PAW (Post Apocalyptic World)

Food

Food storage is also important. When the world goes to hell in a handbasket, you aren't likely to find goodies at your local Wal Mart. Food stores tend to fall into 3 categories -- MRE's, Canned and/or freeze dried long term food stores, and bulk commodity foodstuffs. MRE's can be had military surplus, and will store longer than 10 years if kept under 60 degrees. MRE's can be had less expensively as knock-offs and are nearly as good, but MRE's are damn expensive. One year's supply for one person can run into the $5000 range. Canned long term food stores can be had with shelf lifes from 5 years to 100 years, and tend to be less expensive, one year for one person running around $1000 to $2000. Commodity foodstuffs include rice, wheat flour, dried beans etc, and are the cheapest of the lot, one year for one person coming in at $200 to $500. Your best bet is a combination of the three. Some MRE's for the BOB/BOV and anytime you may be out of the house for an extended period of weeks or months; some canned meats and vegetables, and some commodities.

Food is very important for the PAW. Having enough food for your party to survive the duration is very important, and having enough extra food to barter for things you may need is also a good idea.

The real concern here, is long term storage. The nation could go to hell in a handbasket tomorrow, next year, 10 years from now, or never. If you get food to store that goes bad in a year, but the S doesn't HTF for another 7 years, then you wind up with a large stock of foodstuffs that may be more harmful than helpful.

If you go with cans of food from the grocery store, these tend to expire in 18 months. They are still useful, so long as you maintain proper rotation of your stock, so that at any given time you have good long term food. Always prominently label your foodstuffs with the acquisition date, and (if known) the expiration date. That will help a lot with rotation. A simple practice for rotation is to put your new stuff in back, and pull from the front to eat from. If you plan on going with grocery store canned goods, then buying the full lot up front can mean that you have to mostly eat out of your food stores now while replacing what you eat, in order to start the rotation going. The better bet if you go with grocery store canned goods, is to buy 3x what you eat on a regular basis, and store up the 2/3 that you don't eat, to establish your rotation AS you grow your food stores.

As I mentioned, long term storage food stocks fall into three basic categories. Well, 4 really, if you include the freeze dried stuff, but they really fall somewhere in-between MRE's and canned goods.

My own food plan is about 10% MRE, 40% Canned Long Term, and 50% Commodity.

MRE's, Meals Ready To Eat

MRE's are the most expensive of the bunch. I have heard a rumor that at the Fayetteville, NC flea market, a case of 12 can be had for $24. I have not seen that, but given that a case of 12 military grade MRE's usually go for $70, I'm slightly dubious, although I can believe it, considering the environment of Fayetteville, and the mindset of members of the military.

MRE's are the perfect solution for long term food storage, and if you can actually afford tons of them, then I'd lean heavily in that direction. Stored at 65 degrees fahrenheit, they will last for 10 years without losing flavor, and probably 18 years before actually going 'bad' and losing nutritional value. Stored at 70 degrees, that number comes down only to 8.5 years/15.5 years, and at 80 degrees, it's 6.5 years/12.5 years.

MRE's contain a full meal, and a water activated entree heater. The heater contains a chemical (probably sodium based) that reacts to water by producing heat. If you open the heater bag, slip in the unopened entree, add water, and then let it sit for 3-5 minutes, your entree will be steaming hot with no fire or cooking required.

MRE's also contain side dishes, snack, and dessert, along with condiments like salt, pepper, tabasco, and my favorite in the field: instant coffee, creamer, and sugar. As bizarre as it sounds, if I was in the field and needed a burst of energy, I'd take the coffee, creamer, and sugar, pour them in my mouth and chew on the mixture of powder for a bit, and then swig it down with a bit of my canteen water. It really is not as bad as it sounds, and can really help when you are at the end of your rope energy-wise.

MRE's can be had from tons of places. There are also different kinds/brands of MRE to be had. I tend to rely on military grade MRE's because that is what I am familiar with. I have heard that Canadian MRE's are better, but have never tried them.

Look for them online, or on E-Bay, at Army Surplus Stores, camping stores, flea markets (especially those around Army bases) or, I have heard rumors of them being found at Sam's club and CostCo from time to time. Definitely do your research though, as the prices can vary wildly from as low as $25/case of 12, to as high as $90/case of 12.

Freeze Dried Meals and Entrees

A company called Mountain House sells freeze dried meals and entrees that store for 7 years in the pouch, or 25 years in the can. These, of course, require reconstitution with hot water. Mountain House food is VERY popular with survivalists as well as backpackers, because of their long storage life, low space requirements, and light weight.

http://www.mountainhouse.com/

They sell a 3 day kit for one person for $47.29, and a 7 day kit for one person for $116.00. These each contain 3 full meals per day, per person.

Canned Long Term Food Storage

This is the lynch-pin of my long term food storage plan. I have discovered (through another forum) a company called MRE Depot http://www.mredepot.com/servlet/StoreFront that has MRE's (very expensive ones) freeze dried foods, and canned long term storage. I am very impressed with their canned long term storage options, especially with regard to their canned meats.

For instance, they have canned beef chunks:

http://www.mredepot.com/servlet/the-241/Yoders-Canned-Can-Beef/Detail

Which, for $69.95 buys you 21 pounds of beef chunks. That's only $3.33 a pound, and because of how they actually fill the can with raw uncooked beef chunks, then can and seal it, and THEN cook it completely, it will store for 10 years.

To me, that's very impressive. They also have ridiculously useful stuff, like a whole cooked chicken in a big can for $9.95:

http://www.mredepot.com/servlet/the-239/Canned-Whole-Chicken-Meat/Detail

(They offer discounts on full cases of 6 chickens)

Canned cheese, butter, chicken chunks, ground beef, pork, sausage, turkey, catsup and a lot more.

They also have long term storage canned desserts, which I found to be unusual; $15.99 for a 26 oz 10+ year shelf life Chocolate Bourbon Cake:

http://www.mredepot.com/servlet/the-274/Canned-Chocolate-Can-Whisky/Detail

Four plus year storage canned garden seeds:

http://www.mredepot.com/servlet/the-214/canned-garden-vegetable-seeds/Detail

Specifically chosen to be heirloom seeds and non-hybrid seeds so that you can harvest your own seeds for the next season. I just bought a case of these canned seeds and am awaiting delivery as we speak.

Canned flours sugars, and rices:

http://www.mredepot.com/servlet/the-Freeze-Dried-Dehydrated-&-Air-Dried-Foods/Categories

Which use a "nitrogen flush then vacuum pack" process which gives whole grain brown rice a shelf life of "indefinite" which might mean 100 years or more. Normally whole grain brown rice goes rancid after 3-4 years.

Explore the site, they have all kinds of useful stuff. Another thing I have gotten from them, have been those little silica pack oxygen absorbers. I buy (for my commodity food plan) bulk whole grain brown rice, which I then vacuum seal in 1.5 pounds per bag, with one of those oxygen absorbers inside each one to prevent/reduce "rancidification." That boosts storage of the whole grain brown rice to something like 7-8 years.

Commodity Foodstuffs

These normally make up 80% of a given food storage plan, because they are far less expensive than the other options, and take up a lot less storage space. Their shelf life, however, may vary widely depending on how they are stored.

These are the items that you are best able to get in bulk at your local CostCo, Sam's Club, or BJ's. I am sure you can find them over the internet, but given that the cost of commodity foodstuffs are set a lot like the price of gold is set (this is why they are called 'commodity') you are probably better off getting them from a bulk/warehouse type store. Now, your average Food Lion/Kroger's will tack a profit premium onto the end of the pricing, so they will be a bit more expensive.

These are mostly a matter of pure preference. You may prefer lima beans over kidney beans. In either case, get a variety. Yes, you can go out and get 5 100 pound bags of rice, but do you really want to eat nothing but rice, rice, and only rice every single day for the next 1-2 years?

In either case, look for dried beans, rices, flour, sugar. Get them in the biggest bags possible for the best per-volume pricing, and plan on using a vacuum sealer to store them in much smaller lots.

When it comes to rice, I do prefer the taste of white rice, but the fact is that the nutritional value of plain white rice is somewhat low. You could potentially keep your belly full, but die of malnutrition (or at least not have the energy to work). So focus more towards brown whole grain rice, which isn't quite as delectable, is slightly more expensive, and doesn't store for nearly as long. But the method of vacuum sealing with a silica gel oxygen absorption pack mentioned above will help increase shelf life tremendously.

Packaging Your Commodity Foodstuffs for Storage

Even if the S never HTF, it is a good idea to get a vacuum sealer. When I need to use one, I go to my mother and stepfather's house to use theirs, so as long as you have one accessible, it is not as important to have one in your house personally.

I take my 50 pound bag of rice, and scoop out a full-to-the-brim 1-quart mason jar of rice, dump it into the bag, toss in a silica gel pack, and then vacuum seal it and set it aside. 35-40 jars later, your 50 pound bag should be empty, and you should have a whole bunch of little 1+ pound bags of vacuum sealed oxygen deprived rice. Then dump all of those into a 5 gallon sealable bucket, toss about 7 silica packs on top (once you have the bucket filled to the brim!) and then put the lid on it, and possibly seal the lid with duct tape to ensure an absolutely air-tight seal.

You can do the same thing with beans, rice, sugar, or any other commodity foodstuff there are.

One thing I have been thinking about doing (but have not done yet) is instead of filling one bucket with rice, another with lima beans etc etc; is to calculate the ratio in which I will use them, and then pack the buckets with a mixture of commodities.

For instance, say one bucket has 15 pounds of sugar, 2 pounds of salt, 20 pounds of brown rice, 10 pounds of white flour, 10 pounds of wheat flour, 5 pounds of white rice, 5 pounds of lima beans, 5 pounds of kidney beans, and 5 pounds of black eyed peas. That way, I can just open one bucket and use it until it's empty instead of opening 5 different buckets to gather a menu I might want; thus maintaining the integrity of the seal on the other buckets, to keep them stored longer.

You will also want to store your food in a cool, dark place. For most food, the difference in shelf life between 60 degrees and 70 degrees is significant, and the difference in shelf life between 70 degrees and 80 degrees is dramatic. If you have somewhere where they can be maintained at around 60 degrees without a lot of light, then you will have food stores for 10 years.

You store spices in the same way as commodities. If you like pepper, then I would actually recommend using a pepper grinder and buying peppercorns, not only for long term storage (they store a LOT longer without losing flavor) but for everyday also, because fresh ground pepper is a lot better than already ground pepper.

Growing Your Own Food

Even if you have 5 years of food stores, you never know what might happen. You may get more people involved in your party, some of your food stores may be destroyed for whatever reason, you may need to barter some of your food stores out for medical supplies, or the 'emergency' might last longer than 5 years.

Bottom line is, no matter HOW much food you have stored, it is a good idea to be able to grow your own food, and it is an even further good idea to know how to do home canning, and have a canning kit available and on hand to store garden produce for consumption in the winter and spring.

The canned seeds mentioned above which sore for 4+ years are a great way to get started on this. You can also store seeds in their envelopes by using the same vacuum seal with silica gel method as commodity foodstuffs to make them last as long as possible.

Regardless of which route you use to acquire and store seeds, it is important, very important to use heirloom and non-hybrid seeds. If you use non heirloom (GMO) seeds, it is possible that your next generation will be sterile, and you will not have any seeds to continue growing, not to mention the potential health effects of GMO foods! Likewise, hybrid seeds will not necessarily be very productive in the next generation.

It is important to save your seeds! Once you grow your first crop, that crop will produce seeds which you can use to plant the next season. If you do not save your seeds, you will have nothing to plant the next season, and you will be out begging for food.

Have a book handy on basic gardening and farming.

Don't overlook the usefulness of having chickens for meat and eggs, and possibly a cow for milk. Hay and chicken feed are very easy to grow, and take very little attention. Milk and eggs will be one of the first things to go in the PAW, so even if you never eat/drink them yourself, they will be a barter commodity as good as gold!

Now, nobody wants to care for cows and chickens for years and years waiting for them to become useful when the SHTF, so become friendly with some farmers so that you can buy one/some from him when it all goes to hell.
 
This thread just gets better and better. It should definetely be made into a sticky.


Don't overlook the usefulness of having chickens for meat and eggs, and possibly a cow for milk.

I've heard that rabbits are a very easy farmable animal to work with, and they reproduce like rabbits so they're productive.
 
goats will eat anything and are easy to raise also, you just need a little bit more room...

thanks, gunny for the thread
 
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