Please convince me of statism!

So I'm beginning to accept that private courts might work out a way to deal with problems, even if there's not one universal system for all of them, perhaps there'd be ISO standards and whatnot.

But if I decide that stateless society might work, do I have to act like Conza or can I just try to chill out and make peace with the world? I mean it seems like he's wearing full body armor in preparation for Mad Max or something.

I just want a society that works, can I do that without acting like an asshat or is statelessness = asshattery axiomatic?

No you don't have to act like me, lol. You can also discriminate against me.. bar me from your property etc. Whatever ;)

And I'll definitely reel back on the asshattery.. but you generally have to work your way to that point with me. If you don't watch the videos, or things I link to - if you're not curious about learning and reading (what I read and which convinced me I was wrong... and since I held the exact same position as you currently do at one point) then you're not intellectually honest, and open to reason.

If you're not here asking questions because you're curious about how something works, it comes off as you being here to bash and troll a position you have no interest in understanding.. which in fact is RON PAUL'S POSITION.

My apologies if you actually are interested in learning about a free, stateless society... my suggestion would be to actually watch the videos (when you can) before continuing to flap your gums in a state of blatant ignorance. ;)

I can't watch videos, my internet is capped, and I'm already over. Ass umptions

Jeez, some real complaints and I'm just so close to believing in the free market but the hardest part is associating myself with the group to which asshats belong.

What are you talking about ass - umptions? :rolleyes:

I was right. You didn't , and haven't watched the video about Private Law. The fact that I can easily tell, reflects poorly upon you, not me.

I'm a pretty relaxed ancap, and I'm with you - I want to chill out and live in peace with the rest of humanity.

:thumbs:

Thumbs as well, and @nayjevin - I'm super chill. I just can't put up with fakers. Look, if you're into liberty, passion about justice.. if you call yourself a Ron Paul supporter... then you should be doing what he has suggested -> first and fore most... learning about the philosophy, and Austrian Economics. FOR all the supporters here that means:





When you accept the same premises... self-ownership and origional appropriation (i.e libertarianism), but then fail to see it to it's logical conclusion... that irks me a bit. You're a fellow traveller, fine, I can happily accept that if you're a radical abolitionist (as all RP supporters are)... but when you go ahead and bash Ron Paul's position of self-government and voluntarism, then that pisses me off... :D
 
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But what if Thad didn't agree to any of the judges on my list? Suppose he recommended instead that we use his brother-in-law, who was actually a car mechanic but, according to Thad, "is a really stand-up guy"? Obviously every reasonable person in the community would see that Thad almost certainly was a thief, and that I was telling the truth. If I went to a reputable judge and presented my case against Thad in his absence, and if the judge agreed with me, then the community would have little sympathy for Thad if I went with professional repo men to retrieve my laptop from Thad's house.

This was the issue I brought up - and I can conceive of societal resolution occuring in such a manner. But I don't think it will convert people, it's too iffy. Too much room for imagining things might not go that way.
 
Slow down turbo, a 'monopoly' as you call it, doesn't help me at all, but the traditional, modern, status quo courts have systems in place to help me in such a situation. I can go pro se, hire an attorney, get a public defender, examine case law and build a defense based on prior decisions and court reasoning.

In your free market, a 'private' court 'undertakes' a monopoly on law over a territorial area, and may or may not treat all individuals within that area as equals, and may or may not allow precedent as evidence in whatever they decide are 'proceedings.'

The state IS a monopoly. You're clearly ignoring ALL the bad it does (essentially everything) and only focusing on what it is considered a legitimate function... i.e dispute resolution.

Seriously, wait till you cap is fixed... and watch the Bob Murphy video on how private law works. Ok? Your concerns are valid, but misplaced. He clears them up.

Now you're clearly off your rocker. Anyone can choose to insure anything for any reason, anyone can choose to purchase any available insurance for any reason. I can buy insurance against my team losing in the Super Bowl. Surely you don't say that's not allowed in your free market?

I am?
Uncertainty and Its Exigencies: The Critical Role of Insurance in the Free Market by Hans-Hermann Hoppe

.....The Limitations of Insurability

Now by exclusion we can also approach the complementary questions: What sorts of events are uninsurable? When is the pooling of risks impossible?

An uninsurable risk is one where the following condition holds: If I know with regard to a particular risk some or all of the factors that determine its outcome, then such a thing is no longer accidental; its likelihood can be individually affected, and therefore cannot possibly be insured. Or, to formulate it somewhat differently, everything that is within either full or partial control of an individual actor cannot be insured — cannot be risk-pooled — but falls within the realm of personal or individual responsibility.

Every risk that may be influenced by one's actions is therefore uninsurable; only what is not controllable through individual actions is insurable, and only if there are long-run frequency distributions. And it also holds that if something that was initially not controllable becomes controllable then it would lose its insurability status. With respect to the risk of a natural disaster — floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, fires — insurance is obviously possible. These events are out of an individual's control, and I know nothing about my individual risk except whether or not I am a member of a group that is, as a group, exposed to a certain flood or earthquake or fire risk.

In contrast, take for example the risk of committing suicide. Would it be possible to insure oneself (to pool one's risk with others) against suicide? The answer should be quite obvious: such a thing is not a viable venture for an insurance company. After all, I have full control over whether or not I deliberately kill myself. An insurance company that offered suicide insurance would of course attract potential suicide candidates. I could go there because I want to do my wife a big favor, pay the premium, shoot myself dead, and then my wife will be a millionaire. Insurance companies that would insure such a thing would likely disappear from the market very quickly.

Or take another example. Would it be possible to insure oneself against committing arson — that is against the risk that I will burn down my own house? Again, the answer seems to be clear that any event that I can bring about deliberately (or the likelihood of which I can affect) is, strictly speaking, an uninsurable event. The risk that my house will be set on fire by lightening can be insured against; the risk that I set my house on fire is not an insurable event.

Now take the example of unemployment. As you know, there is something called "unemployment insurance." In the modern world we have invented the art of misnaming things, of applying terms that are completely inappropriate and then trying to fool people into believing that by changing the words, we have changed the nature of things.

Unemployment is an uninsurable risk. I have full control over being employed or not being employed. All I have to do is tell my boss what I really think of him and I will soon be unemployed. On the other hand, I can almost always make sure that I will be employed if I am willing to take drastic wage cuts, for instance. If I were to work for free, I would be employed. So obviously this is not a risk that is insurable. It falls into the realm of individual responsibility.


Surely the person setting up a suicide insurance company is the one off their rocker, not me ;).
 
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If you're not here asking questions because you're curious about how something works, it comes off as you being here to bash and troll a position you have no interest in understanding.. which in fact is RON PAUL'S POSITION.

Ron's positions are in 'Liberty Defined,' the book he wrote, and most of the quotes in this thread are not from him. I understand his intellectual heirs and feel comfortable in saying he agrees with Bastiat, for instance, but it's a bit much (appeal to authority?) to namedrop him in place of an argument. I leveled very real objections that real people have (Hi, I'm human!) and your consistent implication is that I'm stupid or venomous for doing so.

My apologies if you actually are interested in learning about a free, stateless society...

Hi, I'm here at Ron Paul forums... yes I am interested in such things. In fact I am constantly trying to find ways to get good and new arguments in favor of such out of bright and knowledgable minds. ;) How to do so without bad blood?

my suggestion would be to actually watch the videos (when you can) before continuing to flap your gums in a state of blatant ignorance. ;)

If a student asks a question, which is answered on page 433 of his or her textbook, how should a teacher respond?

I was right. You didn't , and haven't watched the video about Private Law. The fact that I can easily tell, reflects poorly upon you, not me.

Your implication was that it makes me stupid, stubborn, blatantly ignorant, closed minded, etc etc. THAT is not true.

I'm super chill. I just can't put up with fakers. Look, if you're into liberty, passion about justice.. if you call yourself a Ron Paul supporter... then you should be doing what he has suggested -> first and fore most... learning about the philosophy, and Austrian Economics.

Man, Economy, and State, or The Philosophy of Liberty? Boil down the basics for easy consumption.

When you accept the same premises... self-ownership and origional appropriation (i.e libertarianism), but then fail to see it to it's logical conclusion... that irks me a bit.

If ignorance irks you, that must be resolved if you wish to be effective. Else, prosthelatizing is not your calling.


I don't believe you are capable of formulating a proof for this claim.
 
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This was the issue I brought up - and I can conceive of societal resolution occuring in such a manner. But I don't think it will convert people, it's too iffy. Too much room for imagining things might not go that way.

Well you're right... it didn't always use to be this way, it used to be on the other foot.


“To answer the last of these questions first - of course there were wars and crime. Has there ever been a society statist or otherwise - without war and crime? But Irish wars were almost never on the scale known among other civilized* European peoples. Without the coercive apparatus of the State which can through taxation and conscription mobilize large amounts of arms and manpower, the Irish were unable to sustain any large scale military force in the field for any length of time. Irish wars, until the last phase of the English conquest in the 16th and 17th centuries, were pitiful brawls and cattle raids by European standards.

The contemporary Irish historian, Kathleen Hughes, has remarked that one reason why the English conquest, begun in the 12th century under Henry II and completed only under William III in the late 17th century, was so long in being achieved was the lack of a well organized State in Celtic Ireland.

A people not habituated to a Statist conception of authority are incapable of considering a defeat in war as anything more than a temporary limitations upon their liberty. Submission to the enemy is viewed as no more than a necessary and temporary expedient to preserve one’s life until opportunity for revolt and recovery of liberty presents itself. The English, of course, considered the Irish notorious in their faithlessness (they repeatedly repudiated oaths of submission and allegiance to their English conquerors); they were repeatedly characterized by English commentators as natural-born, incorrigible rebels, barbarians, savages who refused to submit to the kind of law and order offered by the English State. The Irish, unfettered by the slave mentality of people accustomed to the tyranny of the State, simply refused to surrender their liberty and libertarian ways.

~ Stateless Societies: Ireland by Joseph R. Peden (Ancient Celtic Ireland lasted 1,000 years).​
 
This was the issue I brought up - and I can conceive of societal resolution occuring in such a manner. But I don't think it will convert people, it's too iffy. Too much room for imagining things might not go that way.

Rothbard said:
"A final caveat: the anarchist is always at a disadvantage in attempting to forecast the shape of the future anarchist society. For it is impossible for observers to predict voluntary social arrangements, including the provision of goods and services, on the free market. Suppose, for example, that this were the year 1874 and that someone predicted that eventually there would be a radio-manufacturing industry. To be able to make such a forecast successfully, does he have to be challenged to state immediately how many radio manufacturers there would be a century hence, how big they would be, where they would be located, what technology and marketing techniques they would use, and so on? Obviously, such a challenge would make no sense, and in a profound sense the same is true of those who demand a precise portrayal of the pattern of protection activities on the market. Anarchism advocates the dissolution of the state into social and market arrangements, and these arrangements are far more flexible and less predictable than political institutions. The most that we can do, then, is to offer broad guidelines and perspectives on the shape of a projected anarchist society.

One important point to make here is that the advance of modern technology makes anarchistic arrangements increasingly feasible. Take, for example, the case of lighthouses, where it is often charged that it is unfeasible for private lighthouse operators to row out to each ship to charge it for use of the light. Apart from the fact that this argument ignores the successful existence of private lighthouses in earlier days, as in England in the eighteenth century, another vital consideration is that modern electronic technology makes charging each ship for the light far more feasible. Thus, the ship would have to have paid for an electronically controlled beam which could then be automatically turned on for those ships which had paid for the service."

Society Without a State - MNR

Which is why you make the point that anarchy is inescapable.

 
The state IS a monopoly. You're clearly ignoring ALL the bad it does (essentially everything) and only focusing on what it is considered a legitimate function... i.e dispute resolution.

Insurance re: HHH

That cleared up the semantics issue, if the word insurance is to have meaning, gambling must be differentiated.

I took issue that it seemed you were implying certain types of insurance would disappear in a free market by virtue of someone's claim that they are 'illegitimate' or 'invalid', whereas it seems to me people decide what business they want to be in and what they want to purchase. So I can see that if it is sensible, it will survive in a free market, as sensible people would want it. And that unemployment, a decision by the insured, would not be sensible, similar to suicide insurance.

In other words, YOU WERE RIGHT! :)

Surely the person setting up a suicide insurance company is the one off their rocker, not me ;).

Do you say profitability in a free market is justification? How then to reconcile that profitabilty can also be generated by fraud? I've heard it said that fraud is not profitable when there is no market distortion to protect such practices. For instance, leaving Ron Paul out of a list of candidates for the nomination is fraud. Yet, political ties between newspapers, defense industries, and lobbyists makes the small number of thinking readers who might drop the paper as a result of it profitable in the long run. Without government and political corruption, the bottom line of satisfying the reader is the only issue.

But, though I recognize stateless society does not seek Utopia, and perfection is not the goal, but rather the best way - how can one be convinced that a free market will respond quickly enough to fraud to protect consumers who do not understand industries (like say, software with embedded virii - maybe 1% of the population could have a chance to find)?
 
Ron's positions are in 'Liberty Defined,' the book he wrote, and most of the quotes in this thread are not from him. I understand his intellectual heirs and feel comfortable in saying he agrees with Bastiat, for instance, but it's a bit much (appeal to authority?) to namedrop him in place of an argument. I leveled very real objections that real people have (Hi, I'm human!) and your consistent implication is that I'm stupid or venomous for doing so.






4min+... :cool:

“In reality, the Constitution itself is incapable of achieving what we would like in limiting government power, no matter how well written.” ~ Ron Paul, End the Fed

“Ideas are the only things that count, and politicians are, for the most part, pretty much irrelevant,” Ron Paul told the London Independent in December.

Ron Paul and Private Courts... quotes from Liberty Defined.

Hi, I'm here at Ron Paul forums... yes I am interested in such things. In fact I am constantly trying to find ways to get good and new arguments in favor of such out of bright and knowledgable minds. ;) How to do so without bad blood?

:eek:.. well just mitigate the dismissal, and the "no it wouldn't work because of this".. as if it;s some kind of earth shattering objection that people who have thought about this for ages simply didn't realise.

ALL those instantaneous objections that come to mind immediately, or after some thought - are the EXACT same ones - that everyone generally has to ponder and seek answers for. That's the way to approach it without 'bad blood'.. or how I react anyway (everyones different). The other is to have a 'debate' attitude, as opposed to a joint discovering via socratic method. The latter is better and more enjoyable, the former - which is taking place now, is more 'combative', debate - 'winner' and 'loser', so even if you positon is demented, you feel obliged to defend the bs and waste my time.

This whole thread started out as an exercise in the Socratic method.

If a student asks a question, which is answered on page 433 of his or her textbook, how should a teacher respond?

Well this is assumes I'm a teacher. I'd suggest I'm a fellow student, in which case I'd response.. read the friggin' text before you start spouting your mouth as if you knew what you were talking about... and wasting everyones time (the teachers and the other classmates) when you could have simply watched the damn video, or read the damn text before typing and spouting out ignorant questions..

Your implication was that it makes me stupid, stubborn, blatantly ignorant, closed minded, etc etc. THAT is not true.

Not stupid, but the latters yes. It's a natural assumption to make. There is no way I could have known you were cap'd. I apologise. The way forward would be to then perhaps pause the discussion till you're no longer...

Man, Economy, and State, or The Philosophy of Liberty? Boil down the basics for easy consumption.

Well intro-books are generally the place to start. Economcis For Real People, Economics in One Lesson, Economic Science and the Austrian Method, The Lessons for the Young Economist..

For a New Liberty, Ethics of Liberty, Economics and Ethics of Private Property...

If ignorance irks you, that must be resolved if you wish to be effective. Else, prosthelatizing is not your calling.

I set low standards like Ron. It's just when I get fellow travellers, people who say they support such and such... and their idol in fact supports self-government... but then they 'attack it', that specifically is the 'wtf?' I don't understand... I was ignorant of anarcho-capitalism, economics etc.. but I knew it.. I didn't understand alot of it to begin with, so I just learnt and listened... I didn't go around attacking it, whilst deluded.

That's what a lot of clowns around here do (most of them no longer), which is why I hardly post much anymore. Which is fine by me.

I don't believe you are capable of formulating a proof for this claim.

Maybe you should wait till you can view the video... before dismissing it, yeah?

The claim is simple, Ron Paul prefers self-government OVER a return to the constitution... self-government is his END GOAL. All his words. In video. In an interview. In the video above.

Simple.
 
. I would tell Thad that I had the original receipt for the laptop (with its serial number), and that I had caught him on my home surveillance system. I would then invite Thad to pick any of the judges he wished, and we would go to court.

If Thad agreed, then we would give our testimony, perhaps call character witnesses, and so on, according to the procedures of the judge that Thad and I had both chosen.



What if Thad does not agree? What if their is no surveillance system? What if Thad just slams his door in your face?
 
ALL those instantaneous objections that come to mind immediately, or after some thought - are the EXACT same ones - that everyone generally has to ponder and seek answers for. That's the way to approach it without 'bad blood'.. or how I react anyway (everyones different). The other is to have a 'debate' attitude, as opposed to a joint discovering via socratic method. The latter is better and more enjoyable, the former - which is taking place now, is more 'combative', debate - 'winner' and 'loser', so even if you positon is demented, you feel obliged to defend the bs and waste my time.

So you see people who have not 'reached the logical conclusion' as you say, as demented? Think about that for a while. And no one can waste your time. Only you are responsible for that.

This whole thread started out as an exercise in the Socratic method.

That's one way to put it. Try to put yourself outside the situation for a moment. How open minded were you, really, to the possiblity of changing your mind in this thread? My assumption of the answer to that question is the reason this thread came off to me as snarky, elitist, crusading.

Well this is assumes I'm a teacher. I'd suggest I'm a fellow student, in which case I'd response.. read the friggin' text before you start spouting your mouth as if you knew what you were talking about...

I will not add to the foolery you're bound to feel as you read back over this in the coming years.

and wasting everyones time (the teachers and the other classmates) when you could have simply watched the damn video, or read the damn text before typing and spouting out ignorant questions.

Here is your fallacy:

As a student, raising an objection or asking a question of the teacher is only valid when the resolution of that objection is not available elsewhere in the universe but in the teacher's mind.

Take that to the logical conclusion, and no one will have ever learned anything, speaking is immoral, sharing information between humans is futile, teaching is foolishness. Is this your position?

Not stupid, but the latters yes. It's a natural assumption to make. There is no way I could have known you were cap'd. I apologise. The way forward would be to then perhaps pause the discussion till you're no longer...

Natural, perhaps - as in others would do the same. But logical, no - it's a leap of faith, drawing conclusions without evidence.

I set low standards like Ron. It's just when I get fellow travellers, people who say they support such and such... and their idol in fact supports self-government... but then they 'attack it', that specifically is the 'wtf?'

I understand the feeling, believe me. But it's not logical to view it as an attack. That's over-sensitivity, and allowing emotion to drive faulty thinking. You are lumping me in with a characterized version of an enemy that you visualize on the other side of the Internet abyss. I am not that person. But I am an expert at what I am accusing you of in this paragraph - therefore I teach.

I don't understand... I was ignorant of anarcho-capitalism, economics etc.. but I knew it.. I didn't understand alot of it to begin with, so I just learnt and listened... I didn't go around attacking it, whilst deluded.

The use of the word attack. To me it shows projection when accusing me of wanting a debate form vs. a peaceful learning process.

Maybe you should wait till you can view the video... before dismissing it, yeah?

Nowhere did I dismiss the video.

The claim is simple, Ron Paul prefers self-government OVER a return to the constitution... self-government is his END GOAL. All his words. In video. In an interview. In the video above.

Emotion, desire to defend perceived threat, rush, frustration - have all contributed to reading comprehension. I understand Ron's view on self-government, and have not changed my opinion on it since 2007. Never have I disagreed with you on this point. However, I do not think Ron Paul is an anarchist, except by a very few people's definition of the word - and those people don't differentiate that word from voluntaryism. I think he believes in volunteering over being forced to do things, but I doubt he wants to start a punk band or throw bricks through windows.
 
Emotion, desire to defend perceived threat, rush, frustration - have all contributed to reading comprehension. I understand Ron's view on self-government, and have not changed my opinion on it since 2007. Never have I disagreed with you on this point. However, I do not think Ron Paul is an anarchist, except by a very few people's definition of the word - and those people don't differentiate that word from voluntaryism. I think he believes in volunteering over being forced to do things, but I doubt he wants to start a punk band or throw bricks through windows.

Have you checked out this thread? http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?308268-Ron-Paul-and-Private-Courts

I am going to respond to all of your questions when I have time. I have to go to work soon.

I thought you were already on the Voluntaryism bandwagon?
 
I thought you were already on the Voluntaryism bandwagon?

I am a voluntaryist. Private courts scare me, as I do not have good arguments as to why they will work better than the utterly failed U.S. justice system. If thousands of years of civilization have resulted in the corruption we see today - take jury selection processes - I don't yet see how a private court system will improve upon the model.

I've read alot about it, but it is simply very difficult to visualize for those who have grown up without the understanding. Compelling arguments against the movie 'Death Race' are as difficult to come by as those against corporations becoming 'Skynet.'

So I'm looking for better ones. I'd be surprised to find them from Bob Murphy, as he also caters to those who are sympathetic to sound reasoning. I like him alot though, and will watch the video.
 
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Therefore, bind the inevitable state by the chains of a Constitution, declaration of individual rights, restrictions of government power.

One thing to remember is that all of this is compatible with Voluntaryism. I think universal contracts would arise in the absence of a violent monopoly. You could call this universal contract a "Constitution". People want conflict to be minimized. There could easily be a standard "Constitution" that becomes the norm for defense agencies and courts. Any of them who do not agree will likely lose customers to companies who make such promises. The only, but vital difference, is that the arbitrators and insurance agencies/PDAs would not claim a violent territorial monopoly funded through coercion.

Is it really a stretch to say that the vast majority of people want conflict minimized? The reason why the State gets the support it does is exactly because people want conflict minimized. The problem is that they falsely believe the State is the best at conflict resolution.

Serious question. What if I'm uninsurable? Or what if one of their paying clients 'sues' me?

Remember that everywhere you are standing will either be privately owned land, or abandoned land. If your debts are bad enough, your credit/reputation rating would get to the point where people would view you as a risky person to do business with. Since all property is private, you would removed from any property who doesn't want to deal with you.

If you have insurance, they will obviously pay for it. Then either make your rates higher or lower your reputation rating until you pay it off.

These are only some ideas...

And what if I'm not insured?

If an individual didn’t carry insurance, other people would have no guaranteed recourse should the individual damage or steal their property. Such an individual would therefore be viewed with suspicion, and people would be reluctant to deal with him except for single transactions involving small sums. He would probably be unable to get a full-time job, a bank loan, or a credit card. Many residential and commercial areas would probably require that all visitors carried valid policies before allowing them to even enter.

So we see that those without insurance would have their options, including their freedom of movement, greatly restricted. At the same time, the premiums for basic contract insurance, at least forpeople without a criminal history, would be quite low. So there wouldn’t be very many people walking around without this type of insurance. It’s true, some people would still commit crimes and would have no insurance company to pay damages, but such cases are going to occur under any legal system.
http://mises.org/books/chaostheory.pdf

What is to protect me from rogue courts in a free market?

I have expanded on this numerous times so I don't feel bad for pasting this wall of text.

We have saved for the last this problem: What if police or judges and courts should be venal and biased — what if they should bias their decisions, for example, in favor of particularly wealthy clients? We have shown how a libertarian legal and judicial system could work on the purely free market, assuming honest differences of opinion — but what if one or more police or courts should become, in effect, outlaws? What then?

In the first place, libertarians do not flinch from such a question. In contrast to such Utopians as Marxists or left-wing anarchists (anarcho-communists or anarcho-syndicalists), libertarians do not assume that the ushering in of the purely free society of their dreams will also bring with it a new, magically transformed Libertarian Man. We do not assume that the lion will lie down with the lamb, or that no one will have criminal or fraudulent designs upon his neighbor. The "better" that people will be, of course, the better any social system will work, in particular the less work any police or courts will have to do. But no such assumption is made by libertarians. What we assert is that, given any particular degree of "goodness" or "badness" among men, the purely libertarian society will be at once the most moral and the most efficient, the least criminal and the most secure of person or property.

Let us first consider the problem of the venal or crooked judge or court. What of the court which favors its own wealthy client in trouble? In the first place, any such favoritism will be highly unlikely, given [p. 235] the rewards and sanctions of the free market economy. The very life of the court, the very livelihood of a judge, will depend on his reputation for integrity, fair-mindedness, objectivity, and the quest for truth in every case. This is his "brand name." Should word of any venality leak out, he will immediately lose clients and the courts will no longer have customers; for even those clients who may be criminally inclined will scarcely sponsor a court whose decisions are no longer taken seriously by the rest of society, or who themselves may well be in jail for dishonest and fraudulent dealings. If, for example, Joe Zilch is accused of a crime or breach of contract, and he goes to a "court" headed by his brother-in-law, no one, least of all other, honest courts will take this "court's" decision seriously. It will no longer be considered a "court" in the eyes of anyone but Joe Zilch and his family.

Contrast this built-in corrective mechanism to the present-day government courts. Judges are appointed or elected for long terms, up to life, and they are accorded a monopoly of decision-making in their particular area. It is almost impossible, except in cases of gross corruption, to do anything about venal decisions of judges. Their power to make and to enforce their decisions continues unchecked year after year. Their salaries continue to be paid, furnished under coercion by the hapless taxpayer. But in the totally free society, any suspicion of a judge or court will cause their customers to melt away and their "decisions" to be ignored. This is a far more efficient system of keeping judges honest than the mechanism of government.

Furthermore, the temptation for venality and bias would be far less for another reason: business firms in the free market earn their keep, not from wealthy customers, but from a mass market by consumers. Macy's earns its income from the mass of the population, not from a few wealthy customers. The same is true of Metropolitan Life Insurance today, and the same would be true of any "Metropolitan" court system tomorrow. It would be folly indeed for the courts to risk the loss of favor by the bulk of its customers for the favors of a few wealthy clients. But contrast the present system, where judges, like all other politicians, may be beholden to wealthy contributors who finance the campaigns of their political parties.

There is a myth that the "American System" provides a superb set of "checks and balances," with the executive, the legislature, and the courts all balancing and checking one against the other, so that power cannot unduly accumulate in one set of hands. But the American "checks and balances" system is largely a fraud. For each one of these institutions is a coercive monopoly in its area, and all of them are part of one government, [p. 236] headed by one political party at any given time. Furthermore, at best there are only two parties, each one close to the other in ideology and personnel, often colluding, and the actual day-to-day business of government headed by a civil service bureaucracy that cannot be displaced by the voters. Contrast to these mythical checks and balances the real checks and balances provided by the free-market economy! What keeps A&P honest is the competition, actual and potential, of Safeway, Pioneer, and countless other grocery stores. What keeps them honest is the ability of the consumers to cut off their patronage. What would keep the free-market judges and courts honest is the lively possibility of heading down the block or down the road to another judge or court if suspicion should descend on any particular one. What would keep them honest is the lively possibility of their customers cutting off their business. These are the real, active checks and balances of the free-market economy and the free society.

The same analysis applies to the possibility of a private police force becoming outlaw, of using their coercive powers to exact tribute, set up a "protection racket" to shake down their victims, etc. Of course, such a thing could happen. But, in contrast to present-day society, there would be immediate checks and balances available; there would be other police forces who could use their weapons to band together to put down the aggressors against their clientele. If the Metropolitan Police Force should become gangsters and exact tribute, then the rest of society could flock to the Prudential, Equitable, etc., police forces who could band together to put them down. And this contrasts vividly with the State. If a group of gangsters should capture the State apparatus, with its monopoly of coercive weapons, there is nothing at present that can stop them — short of the immensely difficult process of revolution. In a libertarian society there would be no need for a massive revolution to stop the depredation of gangster-States; there would be a swift turning to the honest police forces to check and put down the force that had turned bandit.

And, indeed, what is the State anyway but organized banditry? What is taxation but theft on a gigantic, unchecked, scale? What is war but mass murder on a scale impossible by private police forces? What is conscription but mass enslavement? Can anyone envision a private police force getting away with a tiny fraction of what States get away with, and do habitually, year after year, century after century?

There is another vital consideration that would make it almost impossible for an outlaw police force to commit anything like the banditry that modern governments practice. One of the crucial factors that permits [p. 237] governments to do the monstrous things they habitually do is the sense of legitimacy on the part of the stupefied public. The average citizen may not like — may even strongly object to — the policies and exactions of his government. But he has been imbued with the idea — carefully indoctrinated by centuries of governmental propaganda — that the government is his legitimate sovereign, and that it would be wicked or mad to refuse to obey its dictates. It is this sense of legitimacy that the State's intellectuals have fostered over the ages, aided and abetted by all the trappings of legitimacy: flags, rituals, ceremonies, awards, constitutions, etc. A bandit gang — even if all the police forces conspired together into one vast gang — could never command such legitimacy. The public would consider them purely bandits; their extortions and tributes would never be considered legitimate though onerous "taxes," to be paid automatically. The public would quickly resist these illegitimate demands and the bandits would be resisted and overthrown. Once the public had tasted the joys, prosperity, freedom, and efficiency of a libertarian, State-less society, it would be almost impossible for a State to fasten itself upon them once again. Once freedom has been fully enjoyed, it is no easy task to force people to give it up.

But suppose — just suppose — that despite all these handicaps and obstacles, despite the love for their new-found freedom, despite the inherent checks and balances of the free market, suppose anyway that the State manages to reestablish itself. What then? Well, then, all that would have happened is that we would have a State once again. We would be no worse off than we are now, with our current State. And, as one libertarian philosopher has put it, "at least the world will have had a glorious holiday." Karl Marx's ringing promise applies far more to a libertarian society than to communism: In trying freedom, in abolishing the State, we have nothing to lose and everything to gain. - Murray Rothbard

That is the text of the video I linked earlier. You really need to read it or watch the video.
 
One thing to remember is that all of this is compatible with Voluntaryism. I think universal contracts would arise in the absence of a violent monopoly. You could call this universal contract a "Constitution". People want conflict to be minimized. There could easily be a standard "Constitution" that becomes the norm for defense agencies and courts. Any of them who do not agree will likely lose customers to companies who make such promises. The only, but vital difference, is that the arbitrators and insurance agencies/PDAs would not claim a violent territorial monopoly funded through coercion.

Do you have any conception of how long it might take for these universal contracts to pare down into those that might be acceptible to folk like you and me? It would be no argument against a stateless society, but it would seem to me that those in power today, if forced to usher in such a system, would jump out front with contract language that codifies a permanent personal advantage.

Is it really a stretch to say that the vast majority of people want conflict minimized? The reason why the State gets the support it does is exactly because people want conflict minimized. The problem is that they falsely believe the State is the best at conflict resolution.

I tend to agree - but the state is people. And who'da thunk judges wouldn't suffer from a bad reputation in America today? I've seen this concept as an argument against humanity - defeatistlike - 'no form of society will overcome man's greed' ('especially capitalism!' they often say). But my position is almost the opposite: any form of society will work - provided it is small enough, and the people using it believe in it.

That's really why I'm for a free market - people ought to have the freedom to form whatever type of enclave they wish. And I'd hope everyone can agree that conquest is wrong (property rights) and that people can move if they want (individual liberty).

Remember that everywhere you are standing will either be privately owned land, or abandoned land. If your debts are bad enough, your credit/reputation rating would get to the point where people would view you as a risky person to do business with. Since all property is private, you would removed from any property who doesn't want to deal with you.

If you have insurance, they will obviously pay for it. Then either make your rates higher or lower your reputation rating until you pay it off.

These are only some ideas...

I can conceptualize that, and it seems like personal responsibility to the extreme, which would only sell to a small portion of the public. Especially since, right now, lots more people have bad 'credit' than are bad people.

If an individual didn’t carry insurance, other people would have no guaranteed recourse should the individual damage or steal their property. Such an individual would therefore be viewed with suspicion, and people would be reluctant to deal with him except for single transactions involving small sums. He would probably be unable to get a full-time job, a bank loan, or a credit card. Many residential and commercial areas would probably require that all visitors carried valid policies before allowing them to even enter.

How bad are we talkin here before I get ostracized? Cause lets say I just got turned down for a car loan here in real life.... I wouldn't buy this as better than the status quo, seems like I wouldn't even be able to get a job in this system.

So we see that those without insurance would have their options, including their freedom of movement, greatly restricted.

It sounds elitist, oligarchic in conclusion - where the dregs of society are not allowed to wine and dine, and upward mobility becomes non-existent. 'You're uninsurable, you're a member of the Jones family.'

I would hope that insurers would find it profitable to insure higher 'risk' folks for justice, but I couldn't be sure it would be profitable, and I find it hard to see how they could operate within a framework where cooperation in contract would have to occur with businesses that don't want to transact with these 'high risk' insureds. Mind you, I'm definitely willing to try it, and can't imagine it's worse than where the U.S. is headed. Google turned down my adsense application....

At the same time, the premiums for basic contract insurance, at least for people without a criminal history, would be quite low.

But it seems to me that criminal history to be considered is determined by the insurance company. Some would ignore decisions, possibly based on court rendered, possibly based on judge presiding, possibly based on a codified, universal principle (NAP, or 'former U.S. Founding Principles' or 'Liberty Defined'). And employers, for instance, would only accept insureds from certain insurance companies, or insurance companies which use their standard. Where might this lead? Sure it's all a guess, but I think many things people do predict scare them out of the idea altogether.

If the answer is truly 'trust the market,' then perhaps more effort should be placed there, than in the details of the future. Thoughts?

I have expanded on this numerous times so I don't feel bad for pasting this wall of text.

That is the text of the video I linked earlier. You really need to read it or watch the video.

Lord no, where does this meme come from? Scrolling, the horror. I'm glad to read it, thanks for putting it here. And for all of it.
 
Do you have any conception of how long it might take for these universal contracts to pare down into those that might be acceptible to folk like you and me?

I think they would arise even before we reach the free society. What I mean is that the State is not going to vanish overnight. As people start to see the State crumble, they will start to rely on other means of dispute resolution. This is even happening today. The private arbitration market has been steadily growing for a long time. As the State courts become more inefficient, run out of money, are clogged up with waiting lines, are too expensive, etc. then more people will turn to private arbitration. I think it would get to the point where people stop relying on the State altogether.

By universal, I am talking about things that almost everyone opposes. Theft, fraud, initiated violence, etc. It is easy to imagine this being the standard since almost everyone already opposes violence and theft.

Moreover, as the result of competition between insurers for voluntarily paying clients, a tendency toward falling prices per insured property values would come about. At the same time, a tendency toward the standardization and unification of property and contract law would be set in motion. Protection contracts with standardized property and product descriptions would come into existence; and out of the steady cooperation between different insurers in mutual arbitration proceedings, a tendency toward the standardization and unification of the rules of procedure, evidence, and conflict resolution (including compensation, restitution, punishment, and retribution), and steadily increasing legal certainty would result. Everyone, by virtue of buying protection insurance, would be tied into a global competitive enterprise of striving to minimize ag-gression (and thus maximize defensive protection), and every single conflict and damage claim, regardless of where and by or against whom, would fall into the jurisdiction of exactly one or more enumerable and specific insurance agencies and their mutually defined arbitration procedures. - Hans Hoppe http://mises.org/journals/jls/14_1/14_1_2.pdf

There is no reason to assume that what Hoppe said there could not be set in motion before the free society fully develops.

which would only sell to a small portion of the public. Especially since, right now, lots more people have bad 'credit' than are bad people.

There is obviously a large range that could include "bad credit". That is why I said if your debts are bad enough. The lots of people who have bad credit today probably are not so bad that you would look at them and find them untrustworthy for small contracts or transactions. There would be a large range of "ratings".

Someone might have a reputation/credit rating of X, which is considered bad. Does this automatically mean he is ostracized and will starve? Well...not exactly. This guy might find it hard to get a loan for a house, but that does not mean people won't deal with him on smaller transactions.

There is obviously a large range between a guy who is so sketchy that you won't let him in your store, vs a guy who is behind a few payments on a contract or loan. The people you are talking about today are probably closer to the side that still makes them beneficial to trade with.

How bad are we talkin here before I get ostracized?

This kind of follows my last response. I don't mean this in an insulting way, but I think you are being intellectually lazy here.

Is an employer or property owner going to refuse to do business with you over minor mistakes? No. Why? Because if they ostracized everyone who was not perfect, their customer base would be very small. Imagine Bob, he will only deal with and sell to saints. How profitable is he going to be? How many people will he deal with? He might as well be a hermit in Antarctica.

seems like I wouldn't even be able to get a job in this system.

Unless you are a violent rapist or rampant serial mugger, I don't know why this would be the case. Again, if employers only hired perfect angels, they would not survive. Even if some employers did have strict standards, there would be a huge competitive labor market for the other employers.

This idea is already in effect today. People with criminal records still get jobs. They might have a harder time getting this job or that job depending on their crime.

At one end we have serial killers and rapists, the other end we have a kid who shoplifted bubblegum when he was 10. Most people will be closer to the 10 year old than the violent sociopaths.

It sounds elitist, oligarchic in conclusion - where the dregs of society are not allowed to wine and dine, and upward mobility becomes non-existent.

The only people this would generally apply to is the people who earned it. I shouldn't have to do business or interact with a sociopath if I do not want to.

If the answer is truly 'trust the market,' then perhaps more effort should be placed there, than in the details of the future. Thoughts?

Suppose, for example, that this were the year 1874 and that someone predicted that eventually there would be a radio manufacturing industry. To be able to make such a forecast successfully, does he have to be challenged to state immediately how many radio manufacturers there would be a century hence, how big they would be, where they would be located, what technology and marketing techniques they would use, and so on? Obviously, such a challenge would make no sense, and in a profound sense the same is true of those who demand a precise portrayal of the pattern of protection activities on the market. - Murray Rothbard

Yeah, it is impossible to say exactly how society would order itself. It doesn't mean that we can't try to predict what would likely happen.
 
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I think they would arise even before we reach the free society. What I mean is that the State is not going to vanish overnight. As people start to see the State crumble, they will start to rely on other means of dispute resolution. This is even happening today. The private arbitration market has been steadily growing for a long time. As the State courts become more inefficient, run out of money, are clogged up with waiting lines, are too expensive, etc. then more people will turn to private arbitration. I think it would get to the point where people stop relying on the State altogether.

Interesting... is there political motivation to quell these types of arbitration? As we've seen the state attack other fundamental aspects of liberty and free societies, such as property rights>eminent domain; individual liberty>group benefits; 1st Amendment>censorship; wouldn't we see some action against private court or arbitration? Sharia law comes to mind.

By universal, I am talking about things that almost everyone opposes. Theft, fraud, initiated violence, etc. It is easy to imagine this being the standard since almost everyone already opposes violence and theft.

I see, I doubt the simplicity of what would be agreed upon comes readily to the mind when we're so used to a complex and confusing justice system.

Moreover, as the result of competition between insurers for voluntarily paying clients, a tendency toward falling prices per insured property values would come about. At the same time, a tendency toward the standardization and unification of property and contract law would be set in motion. Protection contracts with standardized property and product descriptions would come into existence; and out of the steady cooperation between different insurers in mutual arbitration proceedings, a tendency toward the standardization and unification of the rules of procedure, evidence, and conflict resolution (including compensation, restitution, punishment, and retribution), and steadily increasing legal certainty would result. . - Hans Hoppe http://mises.org/journals/jls/14_1/14_1_2.pdf

There is no reason to assume that what Hoppe said there could not be set in motion before the free society fully develops.

So just like precedent law, the inclination is always toward lower prices and more understanding of the legal scenarios that occur in life. But with private arbitration Incentives are more natural and unhindered whereas political interference in the process inherently distorts understanding and raises prices.

There is obviously a large range that could include "bad credit". That is why I said if your debts are bad enough. The lots of people who have bad credit today probably are not so bad that you wo]ld look at them and find them untrustworthy for small contracts or transactions. There would be a large range of "ratings".

Someone might have a reputation/credit rating of X, which is considered bad. Does this automatically mean he is ostracized and will starve? Well...not exactly. This guy might find it hard to get a loan for a house, but that does not mean people won't deal with him on smaller transactions.

There is obviously a large range between a guy who is so sketchy that you won't let him in your store, vs a guy who is behind a few payments on a contract or loan. The people you are talking about today are probably closer to the side that still makes them beneficial to trade with.

Okay, so the picture is getting clearer, the range here is unhindered and incentivized properly. When it's a mutually beneficial transaction, there will be people willing to make it - so whatever trustworthiness is profitable will sustain some sort of market. If hoardes of people are uninsured, there's money there - just like high risk auto insurance - even with all the regulations in place distorting the market.

Currently there are cases where people are uninsurable by the market. The state of Florida would argue that people in hurricane zones would not be able to get insurance for their homes without government intervention. Insurance companies can't be profitable rebuilding homes every few years, even if it's just the roof of a large and expensive beach home. So the state of florida regulates what can and cannot be turned down for insurance, making coverage mandatory in areas based on negotiations between the insurance companies and the state Insurance commission.

In a free market, is it just tough luck for living on the beach? What morality do you see in an entity which codifies the position: you can't insure people in Florida unless you insure Everyone in Florida?

This kind of follows my last response. I don't mean this in an insulting way, but I think you are being intellectually lazy here.

I'm sure of it! I collect ways to be lazy right next to my arguments for the state.

Is an employer or property owner going to refuse to do business with you over minor mistakes? No. Why? Because if they ostracized everyone who was not perfect, their customer base would be very small. Imagine Bob, he will only deal with and sell to saints. How profitable is he going to be? How many people will he deal with? He might as well be a hermit in Antarctica.

Unless you are a violent rapist or rampant serial mugger, I don't know why this would be the case. Again, if employers only hired perfect angels, they would not survive. Even if some employers did have strict standards, there would be a huge competitive labor market for the other employers.

I see this better now, but still it seems to me, since we are in speculative territory, there is room for valid objection. Perhaps, and in fact it could probably be argued as expected - society will adapt in areas with some crazy notions. Such as that black people aren't human, that women cannot reason a vote, or the like. In these situations, perhaps people are seen as 'witches' who oughtn't be insured by society. What if some state is necessary, only for those scenarios. What if the answer is to learn from the Constitution and limit it this time. If that fails, do a little better next time - just as athenian courts, parliamentary procedure, common law, rule of law has come about. A free market would only be deciding to improve upon attempts past itself - as men and women in heirarchies making decisions with varying guiding principles.

Suspend disbelief a moment - lots, most people believe this. That it requires an irate tireless minority, but just the same, keep a small government in check, along with Insurance companies, Wal-Marts, and Hollywood's, keep track of the limited, low payed employees (elected officials) and ensure they only aide in ensuring basic human rights are not violated, and that no great armies of conquest will invade or expand from within by force. I'm talking about way different from today even - for the minarchist, national defense across states themselves is prudent. Do you hold that 'states' (territorial contract/constitution societies) would form again, or nation-state/walled cities/ home owners associations will always form, and in some cases enter defense contracts together? When exactly do you think this becomes an unacceptable 'state'?

If the amount of appropriate organization ends at an individual being coerced to do something against his or her will, a few questions arise.

- In status quo, which occurrences of these violations (if any) are proper to take action against, what action to take, and how does one decide?
- In theoretical free market, what do people do when a state attempts to form? At what point, if any, is it proper to take action? At what point, if any, is it proper to take coercive action?
- In a likely transition in our real future, if our politicians don't reign in the spending (if not too late), if the state fails in part or in full, is forced economically to fire, close down portions, what is likely to happen, what do we expect? What is the prudent action for individuals with the knowledge we have?

Suppose, for example, that this were the year 1874 and that someone predicted that eventually there would be a radio manufacturing industry. To be able to make such a forecast successfully, does he have to be challenged to state immediately how many radio manufacturers there would be a century hence, how big they would be, where they would be located, what technology and marketing techniques they would use, and so on? Obviously, such a challenge would make no sense, and in a profound sense the same is true of those who demand a precise portrayal of the pattern of protection activities on the market.
- Murray Rothbard

Yeah, it is impossible to say exactly how society would order itself. It doesn't mean that we can't try to predict what would likely happen.

But should we?
 
Interesting... is there political motivation to quell these types of arbitration?

I don't think it would get the popular support it would require. At the same time people move more towards private dispute resolution, the State would be losing support. I know the State gets away with some crazy stuff, but I don't know how they would convince a increasingly skeptical public that resolving disputes is dangerous.

In a free market, is it just tough luck for living on the beach?

In a free market, there would be no legalized right to use violence to make other people pay for your risky choices. Certain beaches might be profitable to insure, some might not.

Perhaps, and in fact it could probably be argued as expected - society will adapt in areas with some crazy notions. Such as that black people aren't human, that women cannot reason a vote, or the like. In these situations, perhaps people are seen as 'witches' who oughtn't be insured by society.

Without a coerced territorial monopoly on law this would not be a problem. Communities like that would be relatively isolated and maintained only through people voluntarily staying there.

Think of the Amish communities right now. People are there because they want to be, and they claim no violent territorial monopoly.

Do you hold that 'states' (territorial contract/constitution societies) would form again

In a society where people still believe in the myth of government, if they believe that a violent monopoly is necessary for people to peacefully exist, then this is what society will produce. I see no way to avoid this unless people in general change their minds. The rise of the libertarian movement and the Ron Paul campaign lead me to believe that although it might be a slow process, the truth will become evident and people will change their minds. And with the internet, I think this process will progress more rapidly than in the past.

If there is a violent revolution or the government totally collapses and then market institutions took over, I think it would be very temporary if society believes in the myth of government. If the government collapsed tonight, I see people overwhelmingly putting their faith in the first charismatic leader who denounces the evil free market that lead to this catastrophe and who promises them the recovery of America. And this would be because people do not yet understand the nature of the problem (government), which is why I think education is a necessary precondition. 1

But I think if you combine:

1. "As the State courts become more inefficient, run out of money, are clogged up with waiting lines, are too expensive, etc. then more people will turn to private arbitration. I think it would get to the point where people stop relying on the State altogether."

2. Education

Then I think there is a very good chance at sustaining a libertarian society.

And once people see that the government is not necessary, it would be like trying to convince people that the world is flat. People will never go back to a flat earth theory. So I think a reemergence of the State would be near impossible if you obtain the free society in the way I advocate (1. and 2. above).

IMO, it really is THIS simple...


Once the public had tasted the joys, prosperity, freedom, and efficiency of a libertarian, State-less society, it would be almost impossible for a State to fasten itself upon them once again. Once freedom has been fully enjoyed, it is no easy task to force people to give it up.- Murray N. Rothbard

In status quo, which occurrences of these violations (if any) are proper to take action against

Taking action against any violation is justified. Good idea though? I don't think so.

"You could try to start a revolution, but that’s extremely dangerous, and won’t make things any better in a society full of people who don’t understand the nature of the problem." - Doug Casey

He is obviously talking about a violent revolution there.

what action to take, and how does one decide?

Depends on the situation. Violence will hurt our cause and help the propaganda campaign of the State. So although I would consider it justified if you used force to defend yourself from having to pay taxes, I would not say it is a good idea.

What someone decides to do depends on their priorities. Maybe civil disobedience in protest of taxes is a good idea for someone. It isn't for me though because I have decided that although something like that may be a worthy cause, I am more efficient at spreading liberty not being in jail. But it might be the right move for someone who is not very good at exposing the violence of the State in other ways... etc.

At what point, if any, is it proper to take coercive action?

The moment the coercion is defensive.

if the state fails in part or in full, is forced economically to fire, close down portions, what is likely to happen, what do we expect?

If that happened right now, I would expect the State to come back. If it happened soon, my hope is that enough people have been woken up to the point where secession is generally accepted. As in, there would be no possible way to gain enough support to start a war against secessionists.

But again, there would be a radically different result if the State crumbled in the way that I advocate. At this point though, people are still caught up in the myths.

But should we?

I don't see why not. Just because it is impossible to know the exact future does not mean that it is not useful to make predictions based on historical fact and economic laws.
 
I am a voluntaryist. Private courts scare me, as I do not have good arguments as to why they will work better than the utterly failed U.S. justice system.

Because it's done by voluntary people in the market, not by force, that's why it'll be better!

If thousands of years of civilization have resulted in the corruption we see today - take jury selection processes - I don't yet see how a private court system will improve upon the model.

Thousands of years of civilization was just perfect, all the way until the US civil war, and then 1913 federal reserve, without it, there is no corruption, that's why every country other than the US has a perfect criminal justice balance, that's why they also have health care , and no death penalty.

I've read alot about it, but it is simply very difficult to visualize for those who have grown up without the understanding. Compelling arguments against the movie 'Death Race' are as difficult to come by as those against corporations becoming 'Skynet.'
but corporations are harmless without government!

So I'm looking for better ones. I'd be surprised to find them from Bob Murphy, as he also caters to those who are sympathetic to sound reasoning. I like him alot though, and will watch the video.

never heard of this guy, I shall check him out.
 
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