Please convince me of statism!

Division of labor. Some will always wish to be out of the business of rulemaking. These will willingly submit to those who desire to be in the business of rulemaking.
Right...

The Solution: Private Law Society

Daily Bell: How would law and order be provided in this society? How would your ideal justice system work?

Dr. Hans-Hermann Hoppe: In a private law society the production of law and order - of security - would be undertaken by freely financed individuals and agencies competing for a voluntarily paying (or not-paying) clientele - just as the production of all other goods and services. How this system would work can be best understood in contrast to the workings of the present, all-too-familiar statist system. If one wanted to summarize in one word the decisive difference - and advantage - of a competitive security industry as compared to the current statist practice, it would be: contract.

The state operates in a legal vacuum. There exists no contract between the state and its citizens. It is not contractually fixed, what is actually owned by whom, and what, accordingly, is to be protected. It is not fixed, what service the state is to provide, what is to happen if the state fails in its duty, nor what the price is that the “customer” of such “service” must pay. Rather, the state unilaterally fixes the rules of the game and can change them, per legislation, during the game. Obviously, such behavior is inconceivable for freely financed security providers. Just imagine a security provider, whether police, insurer or arbitrator, whose offer consisted in something like this: I will not contractually guarantee you anything. I will not tell you what I oblige myself to do if, according to your opinion, I do not fulfill my service to you - but in any case, I reserve the right to unilaterally determine the price that you must pay me for such undefined service. Any such security provider would immediately disappear from the market due to a complete lack of customers.

Each private, freely financed security producer must instead offer its prospective clients a contract. And these contracts must, in order to appear acceptable to voluntarily paying consumers, contain clear property descriptions as well as clearly defined mutual services and obligations. Each party to a contract, for the duration or until the fulfillment of the contract, would be bound by its terms and conditions; and every change of terms or conditions would require the unanimous consent of all parties concerned.

Specifically, in order to appear acceptable to security buyers, these contracts must contain provisions about what will be done in the case of a conflict or dispute between the protector or insurer and his own protected or insured clients as well as in the case of a conflict between different protectors or insurers and their respective clients. And in this regard only one mutually agreeable solution exists: in these cases the conflicting parties contractually agree to arbitration by a mutually trusted but independent third party. And as for this third party: it, too, is freely financed and stands in competition with other arbitrators or arbitration agencies. Its clients, i.e., the insurers and the insured, expect of it, that it come up with a verdict that is recognized as fair and just by all sides. Only arbitrators capable of forming such judgments will succeed in the arbitration market. Arbitrators incapable of this and viewed as biased or partial will disappear from the market.


Therefore, bind the inevitable state by the chains of a Constitution, declaration of individual rights, restrictions of government power. Make apparatus such that corruption can be rooted out. Maximize individual liberty, minimize government power.

Or, build a hut in the forest and invite only those who agree with you 100%. I'd move there.

NO. There is no "therefore"... all there is just a massive non sequitur.

THEREFORE - you go ahead and re-read Point 1 of the OP.

There is nothing inevitable about the state. There is EVERYTHING inevitable about 'anarchy'. You can't even escape it now, nor ever.

Take it or leave it fallacy at the end. Why don't you tell that to victims of sexual assault, or rape as well?

... You WERE aggressed (assault by taxation), but too bad.. take it or leave it (and go build a hut in the forest)...

Want to defend the logical conclusion of your position mate? :rolleyes:
 
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How is the private court system differentiated from a de-facto state? I might not be insurable in your system, and might essentially find myself driven to the hut anyway.

So I say bind all such potential justice systems which might arise with a Constitution. Ensure jury nullification. Enshrine individual rights. Codify rule of law. Then rogue courts won't find me guilty of remaining present within the arbitrary boundaries of jurisdiction they have created for themselves (possibly without my consent.)
 
I am intellectually honest and open to reason. If you would like to fix my unrealistic political philosophy, I eagerly await your enlightenment! I'm so sick and tired of being wrong.
It seems as though you're being sarcastic here. Especially about the intellectually honest and open to reason part.
 
Right...

The Solution: Private Law Society

Daily Bell: How would law and order be provided in this society? How would your ideal justice system work?

Dr. Hans-Hermann Hoppe: In a private law society the production of law and order - of security - would be undertaken by freely financed individuals and agencies competing for a voluntarily paying (or not-paying) clientele - just as the production of all other goods and services. How this system would work can be best understood in contrast to the workings of the present, all-too-familiar statist system. If one wanted to summarize in one word the decisive difference - and advantage - of a competitive security industry as compared to the current statist practice, it would be: contract.

The state operates in a legal vacuum. There exists no contract between the state and its citizens. It is not contractually fixed, what is actually owned by whom, and what, accordingly, is to be protected. It is not fixed, what service the state is to provide, what is to happen if the state fails in its duty, nor what the price is that the “customer” of such “service” must pay. Rather, the state unilaterally fixes the rules of the game and can change them, per legislation, during the game. Obviously, such behavior is inconceivable for freely financed security providers. Just imagine a security provider, whether police, insurer or arbitrator, whose offer consisted in something like this: I will not contractually guarantee you anything. I will not tell you what I oblige myself to do if, according to your opinion, I do not fulfill my service to you - but in any case, I reserve the right to unilaterally determine the price that you must pay me for such undefined service. Any such security provider would immediately disappear from the market due to a complete lack of customers.

Each private, freely financed security producer must instead offer its prospective clients a contract. And these contracts must, in order to appear acceptable to voluntarily paying consumers, contain clear property descriptions as well as clearly defined mutual services and obligations. Each party to a contract, for the duration or until the fulfillment of the contract, would be bound by its terms and conditions; and every change of terms or conditions would require the unanimous consent of all parties concerned.

Specifically, in order to appear acceptable to security buyers, these contracts must contain provisions about what will be done in the case of a conflict or dispute between the protector or insurer and his own protected or insured clients as well as in the case of a conflict between different protectors or insurers and their respective clients. And in this regard only one mutually agreeable solution exists: in these cases the conflicting parties contractually agree to arbitration by a mutually trusted but independent third party. And as for this third party: it, too, is freely financed and stands in competition with other arbitrators or arbitration agencies. Its clients, i.e., the insurers and the insured, expect of it, that it come up with a verdict that is recognized as fair and just by all sides. Only arbitrators capable of forming such judgments will succeed in the arbitration market. Arbitrators incapable of this and viewed as biased or partial will disappear from the market.




NO. There is no "therefore"... all there is just a massive non sequitur.

THEREFORE - you go ahead and re-read Point 1 of the OP.

There is nothing inevitable about the state. There is EVERYTHING inevitable about 'anarchy'. You can't even escape it now, nor ever.

Take it or leave it fallacy at the end. Why don't you tell that to victims of sexual assault, or rape as well?

... You WERE aggressed (assault by taxation), but too bad.. take it or leave it (and go build a hut in the forest)...

Want to defend the logical conclusion of your position mate? :rolleyes:

As it is written, So it shall be done!
tumblr_leeks01qJc1qe4ojco1_500.jpg
 
How is the private court system differentiated from a de-facto state?

1. Not funded through coercion
2. Does not claim a coerced territorial monopoly

It is like asking "what is the difference between current private arbitration and the State courts?". See 1 and 2.
 
How is the private court system differentiated from a de-facto state?

The voluntary part... the one where one is based on contract, and the other isn't... lol

I might not be insurable in your system, and might essentially find myself driven to the hut anyway.

So I say bind all such potential justice systems which might arise with a Constitution. Ensure jury nullification. Enshrine individual rights. Codify rule of law. Then rogue courts won't find me guilty of remaining present within the arbitrary boundaries of jurisdiction they have created for themselves (possibly without my consent.)

:confused: so repeat everything that didn't work? :rolleyes:

You can't be that dense... so sure, go create a "constitution" for your private property covenant operating within an anarcho-capitalist private law framework, and go play 'founding fathers' or 'socialist communes' for all I care... you're still fundamentally accepting a private law society, a libertarian one.
 
In a private law society the production of law and order - of security - would be undertaken by freely financed individuals and agencies competing for a voluntarily paying (or not-paying) clientele

Serious question. What if I'm uninsurable? Or what if one of their paying clients 'sues' me? And what if I'm not insured? What if my thugs are smaller thugs or what have you. And what if the other guys' thugs declare me an enemy combatant? For say, not recognizing them as having any authority to 'undertake' law and order.
 
What if an elephant falls out of the sky and lands on your head?

What if the free market has the capacity to provide solutions to <insert what-if scenario here>?
 
What if an elephant falls out of the sky and lands on your head?

That's not even close to analagous. Private entities in a free market are said to undertake law and order. They operate to compete for clientele. Winning lawsuits is liable to be profitable. Therefore, I might be sued in a free market, as a free man, and lose.

What is to protect me from rogue courts in a free market?

What if the free market has the capacity to provide solutions to <insert what-if scenario here>?

So many competing courts would determine the best way? Wasn't that done over millennia, and we came up with 12 jurors? And jury nullification of bad law?

So, private courts are better, and haven't been done. Why are they better?
 
That's not even close to analagous.

It wasn't meant to be an analogy.

So many competing courts would determine the best way? Wasn't that done over millennia, and we came up with 12 jurors? And jury nullification of bad law?

So, private courts are better, and haven't been done. Why are they better?

I don't know what the best way would be; nor do I claim to know such things. I suspect that the free market would be able to adequately determine such things, however--be they through some sort of private arbitration model, a DRO model, an insurance model, or what have you.

For anyone to suggest they have the one-size-fits all answer for hundreds of millions of people is beyond arrogant, as well as naive. That's one of the beauties of the free market--one needn't necessarily have to find such answers because they will naturally arise with adequate demand. It's not just about a free market of industry, but it's also a free market of ideas which may never otherwise see the light of day.
 
Serious question. What if I'm uninsurable? Or what if one of their paying clients 'sues' me? And what if I'm not insured? What if my thugs are smaller thugs or what have you. And what if the other guys' thugs declare me an enemy combatant? For say, not recognizing them as having any authority to 'undertake' law and order.

Lmao, you mean like what happens now? How does a monopoly help you there? IT DOESN'T.

There are things that are not, and cannot be viably insurable - things you have direct control over. There would be no valid unemployment insurance. If you want more info on this ask, or google search.
 
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That's not even close to analagous. Private entities in a free market are said to undertake law and order. They operate to compete for clientele. Winning lawsuits is liable to be profitable. Therefore, I might be sued in a free market, as a free man, and lose.

What is to protect me from rogue courts in a free market?

What is to protect you from "rogue statist courts" (and that means all of "them")...

Law and Appeals in a Free Society - Bob Murphy

So many competing courts would determine the best way? Wasn't that done over millennia, and we came up with 12 jurors? And jury nullification of bad law?

So, private courts are better, and haven't been done. Why are they better?

Lmao, no. Private courts have been done, there is a rich history... except you're ignorant of it. You're stuck in a statist mindset.. many courts need not determine the ONE BEST way... there would be many differing procedures.

You didn't watch the "How Private Law Works" video above did you?

Nope... it's blatantly obvious.
 
So I'm beginning to accept that private courts might work out a way to deal with problems, even if there's not one universal system for all of them, perhaps there'd be ISO standards and whatnot.

But if I decide that stateless society might work, do I have to act like Conza or can I just try to chill out and make peace with the world? I mean it seems like he's wearing full body armor in preparation for Mad Max or something.

I just want a society that works, can I do that without acting like an asshat or is statelessness = asshattery axiomatic?
 
You didn't watch the "How Private Law Works" video above did you?

I can't watch videos, my internet is capped, and I'm already over. Ass umptions

Jeez, some real complaints and I'm just so close to believing in the free market but the hardest part is associating myself with the group to which asshats belong.
 
nayjevin said:
Serious question. What if I'm uninsurable? Or what if one of their paying clients 'sues' me? And what if I'm not insured? What if my thugs are smaller thugs or what have you. And what if the other guys' thugs declare me an enemy combatant? For say, not recognizing them as having any authority to 'undertake' law and order.

Lmao, you mean like what happens now? How does a monopoly help you there? IT DOESN'T.

Slow down turbo, a 'monopoly' as you call it, doesn't help me at all, but the traditional, modern, status quo courts have systems in place to help me in such a situation. I can go pro se, hire an attorney, get a public defender, examine case law and build a defense based on prior decisions and court reasoning.

In your free market, a 'private' court 'undertakes' a monopoly on law over a territorial area, and may or may not treat all individuals within that area as equals, and may or may not allow precedent as evidence in whatever they decide are 'proceedings.'

There are things that are not, and cannot be viably insurable - things you have direct control over. There would be no valid unemployment insurance. If you want more info on this ask, or google search.

Now you're clearly off your rocker. Anyone can choose to insure anything for any reason, anyone can choose to purchase any available insurance for any reason. I can buy insurance against my team losing in the Super Bowl. Surely you don't say that's not allowed in your free market?
 
So I'm beginning to accept that private courts might work out a way to deal with problems, even if there's not one universal system for all of them, perhaps there'd be ISO standards and whatnot.

But if I decide that stateless society might work, do I have to act like Conza or can I just try to chill out and make peace with the world? I mean it seems like he's wearing full body armor in preparation for Mad Max or something.

I just want a society that works, can I do that without acting like an asshat or is statelessness = asshattery axiomatic?

I'm a pretty relaxed ancap, and I'm with you - I want to chill out and live in peace with the rest of humanity.

:thumbs:
 
I'm a pretty relaxed ancap, and I'm with you - I want to chill out and live in peace with the rest of humanity.

:thumbs:

So does Conza, he's taken a burden upon his shoulders few are willing to take, and with that comes incredible frustration. Ron has the patience of a saint, and if you look at some of his early interviews, it took a long time to get where he is. I'm not good at that myself.

I estimate about 5% of the population is currently open to enlightenment through sound logical reasoning, and for that segment, Conza is uniquely talented.
 
http://mises.org/daily/4683

In a civilized community, especially if it had a sophisticated market economy, people wouldn't want "vigilante justice" to be the norm. Instead, most people would want to reassure their neighbors and business associates that they were justified in the way they handled property.

For example, if I pull into my driveway one day only to see Thad the thief running out of my back door with a laptop under his arm, I personally might feel justified in marching over to his house and breaking down the door. That's my computer, and I'm taking it back! I would also feel justified in bringing a few of my burly friends with me, in case Thad and I have a failure to communicate.

But in reality, it would be foolish for me to act like this, at least if my neighbors in this hypothetical scenario were anything like my actual neighbors in the real world. They couldn't be sure that Thad had really stolen the laptop, especially if he runs around accusing me of breaking into his house with my fellow gang members.

Now we see the quite pragmatic function of disinterested judges. Without a state monopolizing the industry, in free-market anarchy private judges would offer their services. In my scenario, I might present Thad the thief with a list of ten reputable judges in the area, who all specialized in cases of burglary. I would tell Thad that I had the original receipt for the laptop (with its serial number), and that I had caught him on my home surveillance system. I would then invite Thad to pick any of the judges he wished, and we would go to court.

If Thad agreed, then we would give our testimony, perhaps call character witnesses, and so on, according to the procedures of the judge that Thad and I had both chosen. The judge would tailor his procedures so that his or her "opinion" on the matter would be likely to accord with the notion of justice held by at least a fraction of the community. Remember: in a system of private, voluntary law, plaintiffs and defendants aren't assigned to a particular judge because of his "jurisdiction."

On the contrary, judges would compete with each other to attract clients. This is why private judges — in contrast to elected or government-appointed ones — would have much greater incentives to give fair rulings. If any private judge were caught accepting a bribe, or gave a particularly outrageous ruling, he would probably be ruined. At least one of the parties to a future dispute would be afraid to submit to this judge's ruling, and so would opt for a competitor.

This is the answer -- 95% of the population being able to understand and visualize it (without building walls and conjuring defense mechanisms in the process) is the obstacle.
 
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