Please convince me of statism!

You haven't been explaining why the arguments are invalid.

The individual presenting the argument is ignorant of their error. I'm pointing out that error. If they want to understand further, they can ask.

I am not going to spoon-feed people.

You still haven't backed up your claim. *yawn*
 
The individual presenting the argument is ignorant of their error. I'm pointing out that error.

hypocrisy.jpg
 
Nice picture. Can you actually back up your assertion though? Good luck :).

Jake, can I ask - how young are you? :confused:

Oh, and another thing.... what sources / books have you read on anarcho-capitalism / self-government / voluntarism?

And in the interest of getting this topic back on track after you've done your very best to derail it so many times...

Could you PLEASE answer the question in this post. Thank you.
 
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Nice picture. Can you actually back up your assertion though? Good luck :).

I could, but you do more than good enough of a job doing it yourself.

Jake, can I ask - how young are you? :confused:

Sure, but first you must answer how American you are. Then explain why you are so obsessed with American politics rather than the politics of your own nation island. An unnamed source tells me a few American sailors whooped your ass, took your girl back to their ship and ..... lol well you know what happened. Is that why you are Anti-Violence and Anti-America? Would really explain things ....

Oh, and another thing.... what sources / books have you read on anarcho-capitalism / self-government / voluntarism?

Probably a good 18-20 or so. I don't have them anymore though, I used them to help start up the coals when I grill.

Could you PLEASE answer the question in this post. Thank you.

I have answered it at least twice in this thread. YOU can do the work of sorting through and finding it. Have fun!
 
Thank you for the bumps... I appreciate the new opporunity for others to read the OP of this thread! :)

Just a FYI folks.. in case you decided to skip the last 50 pages; no, there still hasn't been a legitimate justification of the state... and the 'opposition' doesn't even seem to try.

All they do is use ad hominems and try attack me personally. Quite childish really.
 
Thank you for the bumps... I appreciate the new opporunity for others to read the OP of this thread! :)

Just a FYI folks.. in case you decided to skip the last 50 pages; no, there still hasn't been a legitimate justification of the state... and the 'opposition' doesn't even seem to try.

All they do is use ad hominems and try attack me personally. Quite childish really.

You are in clear violation of forum rules. Take the stupid shit out of your signature. And I'll do the same.
 
Thank you for the bumps... I appreciate the new opporunity for others to read the OP of this thread! :)

Just a FYI folks.. in case you decided to skip the last 50 pages; no, there still hasn't been a legitimate justification of the state... and the 'opposition' doesn't even seem to try.

All they do is use ad hominems and try attack me personally. Quite childish really.

Really dumbass?

Page 3
HOPPE: Mises thought it was necessary to have an institution that suppresses those people who cannot behave appropriately in society, people who are a danger because they steal and murder. He calls this institution government.

Thus the democratic state becomes, for Mises, a voluntary organization.
Thank you to the moderator who removed the personal attack from Conza's signature for me.
...
 
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So in my search for an example of statelessness in the early America West, I started here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Old_West and it seems like the settlers relied on the FEDGOV to protect them, and also settle property issues. Looks like pioneers chased statelessness into the Pacific? I'll have to dig more though, but it is a good recent, and relevant example to explore the nascent American "state". There is your 1% =)
I'll concede that, and you're entitled to your opinion. BUT, there is evidence to the contrary as well.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo195.html
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]So-called land clubs were organizations established by settlers before the U.S. government even surveyed the land, let alone started to sell it or give it away. Because disputes over land titles are inevitable, the land clubs adopted their own constitutions, laying out the “laws” that would define and protect property rights in land (Anderson and Hill 1979, 15). They administered land claims, protected them from outsiders, and arbitrated disputes. Social ostracism was used effectively against those who violated the rules. Establishing property rights in this way minimized disputes — and violence.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The wagon trains that transported thousands of people to the California gold fields and other parts of the West usually established their own constitutions before setting out. These constitutions often included detailed judicial systems. As a consequence, writes Benson, “[t]here were few instances of violence on the wagon trains even when food became extremely scarce and starvation threatened. When crimes against persons or their property were committed, the judicial system . . . would take effect” (1998, 102). Ostracism and threats of banishment from the group, instead of threats of violence, were usually sufficient to correct rule breakers' behavior.
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]When government bureaucrats failed to police cattle rustling effectively, ranchers established cattlemen's associations that drew up their own constitutions and hired private “protection agencies” that were often staffed by expert gunmen. This action deterred cattle rustling. Some of these “gunmen” did “drift in and out of a life of crime,” write Anderson and Hill (1979, 18), but they were usually dealt with by the cattlemen's associations and never created any kind of large-scale criminal organization, as some have predicted would occur under a regime of private law enforcement.
Source-
[/FONT]Anderson, Terry, and Fred L. McChesney, 1994. Raid or Trade? An Economic Model of Indian-White Relations. Journal of Law and Economics 27: 39-74[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]
[/FONT]
 


Go to 4min+.

This is the level of quality service you get when you have a monopoly.

Statists, why do you support a monopoly? :confused:
 
Liberalism, State and Government
Anarchism misunderstands the real nature of man. It would be practicable only in a world of angels and saints.

Liberalism is not anarchism, nor has it anything whatsoever to do with anarchism. The liberal understands quite clearly that without resort to compulsion, the existence of society would be endangered and that behind the rules of conduct whose observance is necessary to assure peaceful human cooperation must stand the threat of force if the whole edifice of society is not to be continually at the mercy of any one of its members. One must be in a position to compel the person who will not respect the lives, health, personal freedom, or private property of others to acquiesce in the rules of life in society. This is the function that the liberal doctrine assigns to the state: the protection of property, liberty, and peace. - Ludwig von Mises
 
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Hoppe [Intro to TEOL]:



Rothbard's anarchism was not the sort of anarchism that his teacher and mentor Mises had rejected as hopelessly naive, of course. "The anarchists," Mises had written,


contend that a social order in which nobody enjoys privileges at the expense of his fellow-citizens could exist without any compulsion and coercion for the prevention of action detrimental to society. . . . The anarchists overlook the undeniable fact that some people are either too narrow-minded or too weak to adjust themselves spontaneously to the conditions of social life. . . . An anarchistic society would be exposed to the mercy of every individual. Society cannot exist if the majority is not ready to hinder, by the application or threat of violent action, minorities from destroying the social order.[10]

Indeed, Rothbard wholeheartedly agreed with Mises that without resort to compulsion, the existence of society would be endangered and that behind the rules of conduct whose observance is necessary to assure peaceful human cooperation must stand the threat to force if the whole edifice of society is not to be continually at the mercy of any one of its members. One must be in a position to compel a person who will not respect the lives, health, personal freedom, or private property of others to acquiesce in the rules of life in society.[11]

Inspired in particular by the nineteenth-century American anarchist political theorists Lysander Spooner and Benjamin Tucker and the Belgian economist Gustave de Molinari, from the outset Rothbard's anarchism took it for granted that there will always be murderers, thieves, thugs, con artists, etc., and that life in society would be impossible if they were not punished by physical force. As a reflection of this fundamental realism—anti-utopianism—of his private-property anarchism, Rothbard, unlike most contemporary political philosophers, accorded central importance to the subject of punishment. For him, private property and the right to physical defense were inseparable. No one can be said to be the owner of something if he is not permitted to defend his property by physical violence against possible invaders and invasions. "Would," Rothbard asked, "somebody be allowed to 'take the law into his own hands'? Would the victim, or a friend of the victim, be allowed to exact justice personally on the criminal?" and he answered, "of course, Yes, since all rights of punishment derive from the victim's right of self-defense" (p. 90). Hence, the question is not whether or not evil and aggression exist, but how to deal with its existence justly and efficiently, and it is only in the answer to this question that Rothbard reaches conclusions which qualify him as an anarchist. [self-government, anarcho-capitalism etc.]
 
Here we go again. (HT: Kinsella)

"How far would Mises push the principle of secession, of self-determination? Down to a single village, he states; but would he press beyond even that? He calls the right of self-determination not of nations, “but rather the right of self-determination of the inhabitants of every territory large enough to form an independent administrative unit.” But how about self-determination for the ultimate unit, for each individual? Allowing each individual to remain where he lives and yet secede from the State is tantamount to anarchism, and yet Mises comes very close to anarchism, blocked only by practical technical considerations:


If it were in any way possible to grant this right of self-determination to every individual person, it would have to be done. This is impracticable only because of compelling technical considerations, which make it necessary that the right of self-determination be restricted to the will of the majority of the inhabitants of areas large enough to count as territorial units in the administration of the country.​


That Mises, at least in theory, believed in the right of individual secession and therefore came close to anarchism can also be seen in his description of liberalism, that “it forces no one against his will into the structure of the State.” - MNR

Liberalism pp. 109-10:

"The right of self-determination in regard to the question of membership in a state thus means: whenever the inhabitants of a particular territory, whether it be a single village, a whole district, or a series of adjacent districts, make it known, by a freely conducted plebiscite, that they no longer wish to remain united to the state to which they belong at the time, but wish either to form an independent state or to attach themselves to some other state, their wishes are to be respected and complied with. This is the only feasible and effective way of preventing revolutions and civil and international wars. … However, the right of self-determination of which we speak is not the right of self-determination of nations, but rather the right of self-determination of the inhabitants of every territory large enough to form an independent administrative unit. If it were in any way possible to grant this right of self-determination to every individual person, it would have to be done."

With the internet, it is.
 
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Dr. Oliver Marc Hartwich
The errors of Hans-Hermann Hoppe
To say it with the philosopher Ernst Jünger: Hoppe’s theory overlooks the reality of machine guns. If Hoppe ignores the simple fact that violence and crime always originate from human beings, not from legal entities, this underlines how illusionary his whole theory is. Hoppe wants to solve every possible problem by the free market. But he does not see that the market can only be free if somebody keeps it free from violence and crime.
 

Good read.

I have in fact met Dr. Oliver Marc Hartwich. Do you fail to see how illogical his position is?

Got some money-quotes for you Conza. Get ready to start refuting, because simply saying "Do you fail to see how illogical his position is" is not very convincing.



1. "Why should human beings lose their capability to do evil just because the legal fiction of the state disappears?"

-They don't, hence Anarchist Utopia.


2. Secondly, and more dangerously, there would be new ways of abusing power in Hoppe’s world, namely in the form of insurance companies. How would Hoppe guarantee that insurance companies would not degenerate and become mafia-like structures that begin to threaten other individuals and extort protection money? Why should someone who abuses his power as Prime Minister, Chancellor or President not abuse his power when he becomes the CEO of an insurance company?


-Exactly! And think about it, this insurance company CEO is essentially one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful person in the Anarchist society.


"On the first point, Hoppe does not seem to have an answer at all. On the second point, he would probably say that such things could not happen as there would be competing insurance companies and that would guarantee that they would not degenerate. After all, customers could just change the insurance company they are with. But how would that make any difference? Imagine the following case: The restaurant owner X is threatened by his insurance company A. He now turns to insurance company B to seek help. But what should B do? If it has an armed force – like company A – it could attack A with the result of a small civil war. If it does not have an armed force or if its armed forces are weaker than A’s troops, it could only advise X to move to a faraway country, i.e. if company A lets him go."


-Arguably more violent and dangerous than the State itself. Scary stuff.

"Hoppe loves to simplify and distort existing problems until they fit into his limited worldview. One could call this a methodological trick, but it is a cheap trick indeed, which is easy to see through."

-I see why you like him Conza.



And the money quote:


"The errors of Hans-Hermann Hoppe are regrettable for two reasons: Firstly, Hoppe is a highly intelligent and well-educated economist who – for whatever reasons – fails to notice when he does damage to the values of freedom and property, which he claims to support. This is the tragic personal side of Hans-Hermann Hoppe. But it is also tragic for academic discussions: At a time when we are surrounded by ever growing welfare states we badly need thinkers like Hoppe to show us how to tackle today’s problems. But instead of doing that, Hoppe prefers to take refuge in his pipe dreams of a so-called ‘natural order’, which rather resembles the abyss of a variation of right-wing totalitarianism. For all these reasons, for all his errors and mistakes and for his wrong-headed methodology we may expect Hoppe’s ideas to remain a footnote in the history of political thought. And it may well be better this way. An effective strategy of liberation would look very different. If Hoppe continues to use the terms ‘liberalism’ and ‘freedom’ for his authoritarian and pseudo-liberal agenda, it is time for the true liberals to claim back these terms from him."​
 
:rolleyes:... so ignore the argument made? Are you blind, or intellectually dishonest. Obviously the latter. You also completely ignored the question raised. Standard fare for a person like you..

"...the market can only be free if somebody keeps it "free" from violence and crime." ... By causing violence and mass crime... i.e the existence of the state.


Or do you deny that taxation is theft? Something Ron Paul has explicitly said on national television.

You cannot say A protects B, when it must violate B to exist.

You cannot say the state protects private property, when it must violate it to exist.

Try reason your way out of that.

All we need do now is to point to the black and unprecedented record of the state through history: no combination of private marauders can possibly begin to match the state’s unremitting record of theft, confiscation, oppression, and mass murder. No collection of Mafia or private bank robbers can begin to compare with all the Hiroshimas, Dresdens, and Lidices and their analogues through the history of mankind.
— Society Without A State, Murray N. Rothbard
 
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"The errors of Hans-Hermann Hoppe are regrettable for two reasons: Firstly, Hoppe is a highly intelligent and well-educated economist who – for whatever reasons – fails to notice when he does damage to the values of freedom and property, which he claims to support. This is the tragic personal side of Hans-Hermann Hoppe. But it is also tragic for academic discussions: At a time when we are surrounded by ever growing welfare states we badly need thinkers like Hoppe to show us how to tackle today’s problems. But instead of doing that, Hoppe prefers to take refuge in his pipe dreams of a so-called ‘natural order’, which rather resembles the abyss of a variation of right-wing totalitarianism. For all these reasons, for all his errors and mistakes and for his wrong-headed methodology we may expect Hoppe’s ideas to remain a footnote in the history of political thought. And it may well be better this way. An effective strategy of liberation would look very different. If Hoppe continues to use the terms ‘liberalism’ and ‘freedom’ for his authoritarian and pseudo-liberal agenda, it is time for the true liberals to claim back these terms from him."

Sadly, it seems you are incapable of recognizing that none of the above "money-quote" in any way, shape or form counters the argument that Hoppe and advocates of statelessness here make, namely that the entire philosophical premise of the "state" necessarily rests upon coercive and if necessary physical violence against the concept of the individual. As an advocate of statelessness, I merely seek to enlighten more people to that undeniable, incontrovertible fact, in the hopes of spreading peace and true liberty.

The above "money-quote" is not at all an argument - a reasoned, logically consistent position - against the philosophy of Hoppe and advocates of statelessness, but essentially an ad hominem. There is no case being made by the above, "money-quote", and it seems you consider it to be a "money-quote" because it appeals viscerally to your emotion-based distaste for anarchism and anarchists.

If I had posed the challenge of the OP, I would have worded it differently, and more succinctly. I would have simply posed that I hold the individual to be the largest legitimate political unit. I hold that position because it is observable that on a basic level, the individual is entirely sovereign. I have no access to any other individual's mind or heart, nor does any other individual have access to mine. I am no man's master, nor any man's slave. To advocate the destruction of another individual's sovereignty is then, logically, to advocate for the destruction of my own sovereignty and is thus a logically inconsistent position to take. The state must, even in it's most restrained incarnation, in some capacity or another destroy individual sovereignty, otherwise it is no state at all, but a voluntary, cooperative agency with which I would have no objection. And then, the question: Can anyone who proactively advocates the state (excepting, for decency's sake, utilitarian arguments) deny this claim? Can anyone convince me that the state is, upon these understandings, philosophically justified - or, perhaps more appropriately - a logically consistent entity to proactively advocate?

This is generally how one makes an argument: by making a claim and substantiating why they make that claim. One does not make an argument by making a claim, full stop. If a person expects their claim to be considered, that person should make an effort to explain how and why they make it.
 
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You cannot say A protects B, when it must violate B to exist.

You cannot say the state protects private property, when it must violate it to exist.

Try reason your way out of that.

Ha! Even more succinctly! :)

That is the essence of it, right there. And that is the claim: that to advocate on behalf of the state is a logically inconsistent position.
 
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