Please convince me of statism!

[Conza88]

and the AoC were an increase to the DoI. So the fuck what? Once the anarchist dismantle the constitution, they will then go ahead and dismantle the AoC, on their way to dismantling the DoI, and finally feel comfortable in the throws of the Revolutionary war, where people actually did fight and die to change "the State".

Oh no! A Declaration of Independence! We can't have that! It is the root of "the State"!

Lew Rockwell: The Constitution would be a major improvement over what we have today. But we need to realize that the Constitution itself represented a major increase in government power over the Articles of Confederation, which would have served us quite well had it not been overthrown. I'm not impressed by the bunch that foisted the Constitution on us. They were really up to no good. We've all but forgotten that most everyone opposed it at the time. It only squeaked through once the Bill of Rights was tacked on. The Bill of Rights isn't perfect, but it at least had the advantage of spelling out what the government could not do. In a rather ingenious twist, even that has been perverted: it is now seen as a mandate for the federal government to tell lower orders of government what they cannot do, meaning that it ends up being a force for centralization. This is such a tragedy. If Patrick Henry could see what became of it, I'm sure he never would have tolerated it. The same might be true of Hamilton, for that matter. So long as we are talking about founding documents, the one that really deserves more attention is the Declaration of Independence. Now here is an inspiring document that shows us where we should go in the future! ​

It would be great if there was a true grassroots following around the globe COnza, but with folks like you ignoring your own problems in your own backyard, and further coming over to someone else's backyard and taking out your frustration on them, it won't happen.

I'm ignoring my own problems down under? Hahah, so ignorant. :o

Stand down Conza, watch as America once again leads the world back to liberty and freedom. By your actions, that is what you expect, but your words betray your hypocrisy.

*removed paragraphs of personal attacks and childish dribble only a simpleton reactionary clown could conjure up and consider valid*

What nationalistic & fallacy riddled bs. Considering just part of what I've done (more than you)... I'd suggest my actions declare your words baseless & hallow. And it really is sad seeing someone filled with such invective.

 

[Conza88]

It is up to each of us to stand-up for our rights. The only way one can do that is to learn what rights one possesses and defend them.

And to not re-impose an institution that can only exist by violating them. Hence, private defence agencies etc as Ron Paul says. Very good .

 

[Conza88]

The point of this thread was not to convince anyone of statism, you know that, I know that, the OP knows that. So let's stop playing games after 400 posts shall we? The OP got his answer, yet the OP is still pushing the underlying reason for the post. Let's talk about that underlying reason.

If you or the OP want to discuss the Topic Facade, then stop ignoring and pretending like the OP hasn't been addressed, there is plenty of material on that. I chose to address what I believe is the real topic of this thread. If you'd like to respond to what I believe is the real topic, you can do that too. I'd be happy to engage you in either of those discussion, but if your response is always gonna be some short thoughtless answer to what I type, then I'll just continue to pump out page after page of my thought stream for your reading pleasure.

There hasn't been a legitimate defense of the state presented yet. Attempts have been made for sure; and yet the arguments were invalid, or logic contradictory. If you beg to differ; please point them out.. I STILL NEED HELP

 

[newbitech]

Lew Rockwell: The Constitution would be a major improvement over what we have today. But we need to realize that the Constitution itself represented a major increase in government power over the Articles of Confederation, which would have served us quite well had it not been overthrown. I'm not impressed by the bunch that foisted the Constitution on us. They were really up to no good. We've all but forgotten that most everyone opposed it at the time. It only squeaked through once the Bill of Rights was tacked on. The Bill of Rights isn't perfect, but it at least had the advantage of spelling out what the government could not do. In a rather ingenious twist, even that has been perverted: it is now seen as a mandate for the federal government to tell lower orders of government what they cannot do, meaning that it ends up being a force for centralization. This is such a tragedy. If Patrick Henry could see what became of it, I'm sure he never would have tolerated it. The same might be true of Hamilton, for that matter. So long as we are talking about founding documents, the one that really deserves more attention is the Declaration of Independence. Now here is an inspiring document that shows us where we should go in the future! ​

I'm ignoring my own problems down under? Hahah, so ignorant. :o



Considering just part of what I've done (more than you)... I'd suggest my actions declare your words baseless & hallow. And it really is sad seeing someone filled with such invective.

so what lew rockwell? Back to Conza. You accuse people of engaging in mythology, of being "guilty" of something since they support the Constitution as a means of limiting government.

You accuse Ron Paul of the same, BUT WAIT! You have a couple of out of context quotes from Ron Paul that allows you to give him a pass on this while burying everyone else who agrees with him.

It has been pointed out time and time again that you are using Ron Paul's words out of context, yet you CONTINUE TO DO SO! What is wrong with you?


So you have a youtube channel. Great! I have a list of people IN THE UNITED STATES of AMERICA who I have either persuaded or in the process of persuading OR ALL to either

1.) Switch party affiliation during the primaries to vote for Ron Paul
2.) Donate money to the Ron Paul FOR PRESIDENT campaign
3.) Actively go out in to the world, jobs, grocery stores, beaches, parks, to engage in the discussion of liberty and freedom IN AMERICA
4.) Completely changed their minds on a host of issues

So my list vs your Youtube channel? I'll take my list all day every day. I'm not the one who started measuring dicks for Ron Paul. This is your fall back that you used 4 years ago. It's like you have to put up this facade of support for Dr. Paul in order to legitimize your asinine anarchist position.

Here is a clue. Start a movement in your own back yard. Get a local meetup going somewhere in australia and find the best most consistent politician you can to fight for YOUR countries founding documents and RULE OF LAW. Then I will be impressed and be convinced that you have actually DONE something for liberty where it counts.

YOUR OWN BACK YARD!

 

[newbitech]

There hasn't been a legitimate defense of the state presented yet. Attempts have been made for sure; and yet the arguments were invalid, or logic contradictory. If you beg to differ; please point them out.. I STILL NEED HELP

BULLSHIT!

You don't need help being convinced of "statism", what you need help with is bringing down the status quo in your own backyard. STOP blaming America for your problems, and START looking for solutions where it counts.

YOUR OWN BACKYARD!

 

[Jake Ralston]

Once the anarchist dismantle the constitution, they will then go ahead and dismantle the AoC, on their way to dismantling the DoI, and finally feel comfortable in the throws of the Revolutionary war, where people actually did fight and die to change "the State".

Conza isn't an American, so he has no respect for those who died in the Revolutionary War to give us our freedoms.

then we have people like COnza who are blaming the United States for problems on an island (AUstralia) that the people on these forums have no control over.

Great point!

He likes to fancy himself as some kind of global freedom fighter, and its clear he doesn't give a crap about the campaign, ROn Paul, Ron Paul's philosophy, and the philosophy that this forum, and many hard working America;s are trying embrace and teach to their neighbors.

You know, some of the most respected people on this forum have been saying this about Conza for a long time. He doesn't care, he has no respect.

It would be great if there was a true grassroots following around the globe COnza, but with folks like you ignoring your own problems in your own backyard, and further coming over to someone else's backyard and taking out your frustration on them, it won't happen.

Exactly. As soon as I found out this dude wasn't even American I totally wrote him off. It's like, why are you telling me what to do? How to live?
Get your own affairs in order before you come pointing out my problems.

Stand down Conza, watch as America once again leads the world back to liberty and freedom. By your actions, that is what you expect, but your words betray your hypocrisy. It is unfortunate, I'd love to see you make some inroads against Tyranny on your island. But alas, you are waiting for America to lead, and since your only hope for anarchy seems to rely on people in another country doing something that you yourself are not willing to do in your own country, I fear you will eventually be disappointed.

Hahaha wow, so it really is Australia, huh? Things are really starting to make sense now. Unbelievable.

YOur only real hope is to disengage yourself and let the chips fall where they may. I don't see you doing that either, because your anger and hatred for what AMerica has done to you personally will not allow you withhold your angst as you actively seek to piss off as many of your potential allies as you possibly can.

What HAS "America" done to Conza personally, lol. Think about it, the guy hates America, the guy once complained about our military being over on his country. I'll tell you exactly what happened. A few U.S. sailors probably whooped his ass and took his girl a few years ago. Lol. How's that Non-Aggression Pact working out for you bro? Hilarious!

Too bad you can't see that your request has been met in this thread over and over again. Your form of dismissing opinions and commentary is no at all philosophical, argumentation, logically consistent, constructive, or conducive to any type of resolution. You seek to frustrate and belittle anyone who does not share your opinion, and blind yourself from the truth of what anyone who disagree's with you may have to say.

Your exactly right. This Conza kid will never change his mind, he's a lost cause. And that's assuming you take him seriously. I'd say favor lends that he's nothing but an impotent internet troll, that got his ass whooped and his girl taken from him by a U.S. sailor or two.

Anyways, epic post newbitech. You hit the nail on the head and Conza boys only response was a Lew Rockwell quote and a sentence or two of rambling. Lol, this really is getting pathetic, oh well.

 

[newbitech]

So now you have changed what you wrote and I quoted after you wrote it. Tailoring your words.

Call me nationalistic will ya? Go look up what your hero Rothbard has to say about this in National Self-Determination, maybe then you'll understand why your attack against me on that front falls flat.

And it's too bad you aren't willing to address ALL of my post to you. You call it childish simpleton whatever. Par for the course for you. You can pick and choose all you want, but changing context doesn't change circumstance.

 

[ClayTrainor]

You know, some of the most respected people on this forum have been saying this about Conza for a long time. He doesn't care, he has no respect.

Maybe you just gotta beat it into him, according to your own words.

Haha nice one! But yea right on. Sometimes a good 2 minute ass-whooping will fix an attitude that could normally take years to correct. I can think of a few here on this forum that could sure use one. Perhaps then we would see a little more respect. As I was always taught:

Show respect for your elders.
Pride comes before the fall. There is always someone bigger and stronger than you.

20 years and half a dozen ass-whoopings later and i've learned a lot.

 

[ClayTrainor]

hmmmmmmm I wonder why there's been such a strong and consistent trend towards voluntaryism with the members of this forum.

It's okay. I sincerely believe the reason there is such a strong and growing Voluntaryist presence on this board is not because of people like me who argue in favor of it, but moreso because of the obvious flaws in the arguments that are used to against it, especially when they begin to get emotional.

All we need to do is continue to ask the tough questions, and the truth will reveal itself to those who are curious enough to discover it.

Discussions like this are why I lean more and more towards anarchy each day. Almost all of the arguments against it are based on strawman.

With Voluntarism, the logical inconsistancies are largely gone. There are no contradictory beliefs about how the income tax is immoral, but a sales tax or tariff tax is ok. There are no pet issues. There isn't the belief that many other Libertarians have that the Austrian School of economics is right on all but one pet issue, where it just so happens that the random libertarian and the government knows more than all Austrian economists. There are no excuses for advocating government coercion with voluntarism.

Oh wait, no i don't.

 

[newbitech]

hmmmmmmm I wonder why there's been such a strong and consistent trend towards voluntaryism with the members of this forum.



Oh wait, no i don't.

yeah, the sock puppets are hardly indistinguishable from the activist.

 

[Jake Ralston]

hmmmmmmm I wonder why there's been such a strong and consistent trend towards voluntaryism with the members of this forum.

There hasn't. At all.

30,810 Ron Paul Forum members. Take a look at this poll:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?305055-Ancap-anyone

You have a whopping 25 declared Anarchists.

Thousands upon thousands of RPF members don't even visit the Philosophy threads. They are actually here to support Ron Paul.

Believe it or not ( I am sure you will choose not) the Anarchists on this forum are a very small, but loud minority.

 

[newbitech]

for instance, here is a poll tailor made for anarchist

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?306768-Anarchist-Minarchist-or-Other-(POLL)

Notice that a mere 26 forum members have decided they are anarchist/voluntarist/ancap/"self-government" (I only added self-government because that is the latest (not really, its old) anarchist distortion).

And here is a poll from 2009 that you started looking for real motivation for freedom.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=3586

31 people voted for natural law.

These polls are very similar in participation.

I think any increase you may see of a trend towards voluntarism/anacap/anarchy/"self-government" is wishful thinking.

 

[newbitech]

for instance, here is a poll tailor made for anarchist

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?306768-Anarchist-Minarchist-or-Other-(POLL)

Notice that a mere 26 forum members have decided they are anarchist/voluntarist/ancap/"self-government" (I only added self-government because that is the latest (not really, its old) anarchist distortion).

And here is a poll from 2009 that you started looking for real motivation for freedom.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=3586

31 people voted for natural law.

These polls are very similar in participation.

I think any increase you may see of a trend towards voluntarism/anacap/anarchy/"self-government" is wishful thinking.

in fact, in the 2009 poll, only 8 people came out for the constitution. Here in 2011, 3 times as many people came out for "minarchy".

if anything, I am convinced more people are starting to understand that there is a forum where people are actually advocating AGAINST the constitution contrary to Dr. Paul's campaign and are jumping in to show support of the constitutional stance, IN THIS FORUM.

 

[ClayTrainor]

yeah, the sock puppets are hardly indistinguishable from the activist.

The thing about activists is, they can cite their activism.

I also played a central role in organizing and marketing Adam Kokesh's first money bomb when he ran for congress, which also just so happened to be his biggest. The website is no longer up, but the video I made is...



I spent over 40 hours in one week working on that video. I chose to work on it, instead of make money. (I'm a professional marketer, btw)

I have donated to multiple chipin's, I have donated money to this forum, I have helped to create, pay for and host websites for certain friends of Ron Paul, including Michael Scheuers www.non-intervention.com. I even donated my fully functional HP laptop to an activist on this forum who was in dire need of a new computer. And these are just the things i can think of at the moment.

 

[newbitech]

The thing about activists is, they can cite their activism.

I mean it's a youtube video posts. You have no way of actually validating that you converted ANYONE or gained any support. Yes you spread the message. Great. What does that prove to someone who has a list of people who have changed party affiliation, donated money, started their own activist efforts, etc etc..

The only proof that any of us are effective is when Ron Paul or other liberty minded candidates win their elections and start representing the people.

Great, thank you for helping to spread the message. I do not take away from that. But what is the point of the pissing contest? LOCAL RESULTS are what counts! Prove those! If you are going to pull out the true supporter card, it's up to you to provide that evidence of your activism paying off. I am sorry to say, but a public forum is not the place to compare conversion notes, and youtube views on the topic are not sufficient to prove results. Case in point. Ron Paul dominates the internet, what does any of us get from that in 2008?

 

[ClayTrainor]

There hasn't. At all.

30,810 Ron Paul Forum members. Take a look at this poll:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?305055-Ancap-anyone

You have a whopping 25 declared Anarchists.

lol, you took a poll that was in the philosophy section that very few people read. And laughingly so, WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY more people voted for anarchism than against it, so LOL!

And yea, that trend is far more consistent in recent years than it was in the early years. (not that you would know since you joined only a couple months ago)

They are actually here to support Ron Paul.

Believe it or not ( I am sure you will choose not) the Anarchists on this forum are a very small, but loud minority.

Since virtually none of the polls in recent history of the forum show Minarchy having a strong lead, i think it's safe the say there's a trend.

More empirical evidence for you to reject. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...cal-philosophy-you-would-describe-yourself-as

 

[ClayTrainor]

I mean it's a youtube video posts.

Ugh no, it's far more than that. Try reading other peoples posts sometime before making such blatantly false assertions.

I have donated to multiple chipin's, I have donated money to this forum, I have helped to create, pay for and host websites for certain friends of Ron Paul, including Michael Scheuers www.non-intervention.com. I even donated my fully functional HP laptop to an activist on this forum who was in dire need of a new computer. And these are just the things i can think of at the moment.

And ya, those youtube videos you so easily shrug off also drove large amounts of traffic to build email lists which were used to drive donations to political campaigns and chip-in efforts. This very easily verfiable if you don't believe me at my word.

You have no way of actually validating that you converted ANYONE or gained any support. Yes you spread the message. Great. What does that prove to someone who has a list of people who have changed party affiliation, donated money, started their own activist efforts, etc etc..

Who says I don't have that too? One things for sure, I've presented just as much evidence suggesting I have what you describe, as you have.

The only proof that any of us are effective is when Ron Paul or other liberty minded candidates win their elections and start representing the people.

lol. We're in for a world of hurt then.

 

[newbitech]

lol, you took a poll that was in the philosophy section that very few people read. And laughingly so, WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY more people voted for anarchism than against it, so LOL!

And yea, that trend is far more consistent in recent years than it was in the early years. (not that you would know since you joined only a couple months ago)








Since virtually none of the polls in recent history of the forum show Minarchy having a strong lead, i think it's safe the say there's a trend.

More empirical evidence for you to reject. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...cal-philosophy-you-would-describe-yourself-as

Nice poll. I think the philosophy itself is very new and that attracts a lot of young people who are still in the process of defining their world view. I think the philosophy also attracts a lot of older people in the process of changing their world view.

I for one who never identify myself as any of these, simply because I know that the world and definitions are not static. So regardless of what my philosophy is, I am always going to vote for "other" in this poll.

I appreciate and respect the philosophy, I just don't agree with the possibilities for implementation. I have yet to hear anything remotely close to a solid plan of action based on this philosophy that will get results in a time frame that I consider to be agile and pragmatic. This is important to me, because even though I am willing to give up my lifetime for future generations, I believe this root problem will be a recurring theme in the future and work needs to be done to develop an action plan that keeps the frog OUT of the boiling pot of water.

So a 40-50 time horizon to turn things around is not sufficient, IMO. I believe that through utilizing the constitutional republic form of government, the turn around time for results has a time horizon of 8-16 years.

Unfortunately, Dr. Paul has not enjoyed the momentum and support that he has been giving this message, and I believe any discussion on his philosophy needs to answer that question in order for it to be considered "viable". I am not attaching his philosophy or labeling it either, but I do believe the answer to that question will go a long way in to properly identifying where the man stands on the issues today. It would be to easy to say that he stands in the exact same place that he stood 30-40 years ago, but I don't think that would be realistic.

The man was not born with the ideas he has, and he like any other, is capable of growing in his world view. Sticking him or his philosophy with a label is short-sided at best. It's like anarchy folks are trying to pigeon-hole everyone who supports Ron Paul in to believing in a philosophy that does not and cannot provide any viable actions inline with the goal of electing Ron Paul as President without forcing folks to feel like hypocrites. I don't buy that, and neither should anyone, regardless of what philosophy you claim as true.

 

[newbitech]

Ugh no, it's far more than that. Try reading other peoples posts sometime before making such blatantly false assertions.



And ya, those youtube videos you so easily shrug off also drove large amounts of traffic to build email lists which were used to drive donations to political campaigns and chip-in efforts. This very easily verfiable if you don't believe me at my word.



Who says I don't have that too? One things for sure, I've presented just as much evidence suggesting I have what you describe, as you have.



lol. We're in for a world of hurt then.

Clay that is what it is. I read your comments under the posts just now. I am not discounting anything you did. BUt really, what is the goal of your activism and everything you do? That is my point. Creating a list of all the things you did is one thing. But the only list that matters IMO, is the list of people's names who vote, contribute cash, and actively participate in getting others to vote, send cash, and actively participate.

If we have to compare what we have done, then the ruler should be those three things and the success and ability to achieve the same. I take it one step further and say, OFFLINE~!

 

[erowe1]

And yea, that trend is far more consistent in recent years than it was in the early years. (not that you would know since you joined only a couple months ago)

I think everybody who has been here for awhile knows you're right about the trend. We've all seen people move in that direction.

When I became an RP supporter, I was a pretty typical conservative Republican, and I thought anarchist were absolutely crazy. I still don't consider myself an anarchist, but at least now when I use the label I don't mean it as a bad thing.

Actually I don't see a huge difference between anarchy and a republic. But a lot of the statists here like to say they are for a constitutional republic, when they really are just for the Constitution, including all the nonrepublican parts of it.