Please convince me of statism!

Ron Paul - "We had a relative voluntary society in our early history."

heavenlyboy34 said:
No, to hold out for a successful minarchist society is futile. Remember, there was a time when it was considered a fantasy that leaders would be elected at all or that blacks would be considered human on par with whites. Humanity eventually outgrew it (in the West, at least). We'll also outgrow our current state of affairs, simply because it isn't sustainable if for no other reason.
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If our ancestors did enjoy a relative voluntary society, then why reject returning to those principles?
 
Travlyr said:
Ron Paul - "We had a relative voluntary society in our early history."



If our ancestors did enjoy a relative voluntary society, then why reject returning to those principles?
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We have to go back quite a ways before the constitution to find a voluntary society. (even a number of the ranks of the colonial and revolutionary war army were drafted) If he means that by that quote, I agree with him.
 
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heavenlyboy34 said:
We have to go back quite a ways before the constitution to find a voluntary society. (even a number of the ranks of the colonial and revolutionary war army were drafted) If he means that by that quote, I agree with him.
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What was so coercive about the signing of the Constitution? Last I heard, it was voluntarily adopted by the nation when the Articles proved a bit too loose to be wieldy.

For that matter, what was coercive about the Articles of Confederation?
 
acptulsa said:
What was so coercive about the signing of the Constitution? Last I heard, it was voluntarily adopted by the nation when the Articles proved a bit too loose to be wieldy.
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Actually the Constitution was not voluntarily adopted by "the nation". It was foisted upon the people. Madison and the Federalists closed the doors of their meeting to both the people and the press. They explicitly violated their duty assigned by the state legislatures-to amend the articles of confederation.

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]No member of the Convention ever revealed what went on behind those closed doors. This included the opponents of the Constitution. Luther Martin of Maryland, a signer of the Declaration of Independence, opposed the Convention's plan within days of his participation. He kept notes of the debates, but his notes were not published until 1838, two years after Madison's death — the last member of the Convention to die.[/FONT](1)

acptulsa said:
For that matter, what was coercive about the Articles of Confederation?
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I didn't get into the AoC previously, so I don't see why you're bringing it up. (I'll add more to this point later...gtg for now)
 
heavenlyboy34 said:
I didn't get into the AoC previously, so I don't see why you're bringing it up. (I'll add more to this point later...gtg for now)
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Well, you were talking about before the Revolution, right? Not that I entirely agree about the Constitution--these people were elected, or at least selected, to represent the folks in the Several States after all...

heavenlyboy34 said:
We have to go back quite a ways before the constitution to find a voluntary society. (even a number of the ranks of the colonial and revolutionary war army were drafted) If he means that by that quote, I agree with him.
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So, if you have to predate the revolution to find a voluntary society on this continent, what was so involuntary about the Articles?
 
acptulsa said:
So, if you have to predate the revolution to find a voluntary society on this continent, what was so involuntary about the Articles?
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The primary problem is that there isn't an article allowing for individual nullification of laws. It also forbids private minting of money. I only have a few nitpicks like that with the AoC, and those could be fixed with amendments.
 
Brian Miller, recently ousted Pima CO. GOP chair, summed up his philosophy thusly, which is the same as mine:

"Progressively less government, until there is none".

The massive structure of the state was not erected overnight, it will not go away overnight.
 
Anti Federalist said:
Brian Miller, recently ousted Pima CO. GOP chair, summed up his philosophy thusly, which is the same as mine:

"Progressively less government, until there is none".

The massive structure of the state was not erected overnight, it will not go away overnight.
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WHOAAAAA, WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA.... WHOA.

AF. What's this I see. Are you a gradualist anarchist?

When did you finally decide to jump on the anarchist boat? This is basically the same exact method I support (though will say I want it as fast as possible, I realistically understand it will not be an overnight process). Minarchism on the road to anarchism - controlled demolition, preferably.
 
Anti Federalist said:
Brian Miller, recently ousted Pima CO. GOP chair, summed up his philosophy thusly, which is the same as mine:

"Progressively less government, until there is none".

The massive structure of the state was not erected overnight, it will not go away overnight.
Click to expand...

Smooth move. :rolleyes: No wonder he was ousted. Now, because of his big mouth, he has lost the chance he did have to help Ron Paul get elected.
 
LibertyEagle said:
Smooth move. :rolleyes: No wonder he was ousted. Now, because of his big mouth, he has lost the chance he did have to help Ron Paul get elected.
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He was not ousted for that comment.

He was ousted because he dared to open his mouth about that SWAT raid that killed the Marine in a botched drug raid and then they let him bleed out and die for an hour before allowing medics into the home.

http://www.kvoa.com/news/pima-county-gop-chairman-ousted/
 
That's where I've been all along.

It may take centuries to achieve worldwide though.

Which is why I still favor the concept of a nation and trade policies that work to maximize our efforts at limiting government and eventually eliminating it.

Sentient Void said:
WHOAAAAA, WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA.... WHOA.

AF. What's this I see. Are you a gradualist anarchist?

When did you finally decide to jump on the anarchist boat? This is basically the same exact method I support (though will say I want it as fast as possible, I realistically understand it will not be an overnight process). Minarchism on the road to anarchism - controlled demolition, preferably.
Click to expand...
 
Anti Federalist said:
He was not ousted for that comment.

He was ousted because he dared to open his mouth about that SWAT raid that killed the Marine in a botched drug raid and then they let him bleed out and die for an hour before allowing medics into the home.

http://www.kvoa.com/news/pima-county-gop-chairman-ousted/
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I don't care. It still wasn't wise. We all know they will do just about anything to keep Ron Paul from the Whitehouse and will jump at any chance to get us out of positions of power within the Republican party. We have to be smarter than this and keep our eye on the prize.
 
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LibertyEagle said:
I don't care. It still wasn't wise. We all know they will do just about anything to keep Ron Paul from the Whitehouse and will jump at any chance to get us out of positions of power within the Republican party. We have to be smarter than this and keep our eye on the prize.
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Sadly, you are absolutely correct, which is why most people in politics have the integrity and honesty of used car salesmen.
 
Terrible thing to say about used car salesmen, that. ;)

I know one thing for sure - I respect Mr. Miller both for his view of government, and also for his stance on the awful murder of Jose Guerena.
 
A Son of Liberty said:
Terrible thing to say about used car salesmen, that. ;)

I know one thing for sure - I respect Mr. Miller both for his view of government, and also for his stance on the awful murder of Jose Guerena.
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As do I.

But the unfortunate fact of the matter is that, for a few rare exceptions, politics requires the greasy smile, the talking out of both sides of your mouth, two bit hustling of a petty pimp to be successful at it.
 
A Son of Liberty said:
Terrible thing to say about used car salesmen, that. ;)

I know one thing for sure - I respect Mr. Miller both for his view of government, and also for his stance on the awful murder of Jose Guerena.
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I would have respected him a lot more if he would have kept his mouth shut about it and helped to get Ron Paul elected. Because then, we would be on a path to make sure that we didn't have a repeat of what happened to Guerena.
 
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