Piers Morgan does clip on pizza place that gives discounts if u wear a gun (check banner)

The store owner basically laid down and died. Gunny's right, he let the Redcoat bully him.

Where was the counter argument about violence in Britain?

Where was the counter argument about nobody is going to shoot up the pizza store if there are other gun owners/carriers in the store?

Where was the counter argument about deaths in bathtubs, should be ban bathtubs too?


Ehh, I don't mean they guy needs to be some kind of debate genius with perfect recall, I meant the specific act of letting Piers frame the debate every time. He ended up getting hit with a ton of "have you stopped beating your wife yet?" type questions. I don't care how good you are, if you let someone do that to you you're going to have a bad time.

One of the ways that the right fails against the left is that the Right generally sucks at re-framing the debate, and the left are usually masters at it. We are even worse in the liberty movement because we by and large don't even recognize debate-framing and go with whatever they toss in our laps.

PM - "Don't you feel worried with all those gun-owners in your store"
LM - (look of surprise) "What? worried?! We've had armed people in this store for 5 years without a single incident. The store two blocks down doesn't, and they've been robbed 3 times in the same five years. If anybody is worried, it should be those guys!"

No extra genius required, just don't let the bastard frame the debate and you'll be OK.
 
I'm not criticizing the owners, my goodness, some of the biggest names in conservatism let the left do this to them too. It's a recognition thing that I want us all to get so we ALL do better. The left NEVER has a superior argument, the left NEVER has the facts on their side. The left ends up winning because we let them frame the debate. We have to learn to overcome that, and we will rise to prominence on the right because we will then be seen as "those magical beings that the left is unable to hurt."

The store owners here didn't get out-debated. They were stronger in the actual debate than Morgan by a long way. It just didn't look that way because they let Morgan frame the debate so their answers didn't feel right, or insinuated some hidden point Morgan wanted swallowed.

Reason I'm saying that is because this is a lesson for all of us to identify the problem, get better, and next time we are faced with it be equipped to destroy the sophistic buggery for what it is.
 
just don't let the bastard frame the debate and you'll be OK.

35488475.jpg
 
It was hard to watch, but as soon as I muted Piers it was better.

So I'd like to take a moment to highlight some of my favorite angles that Piers decided to attack on.

A tank? Lovely idea! I'd run an "all-you-can-kill special" for everyone while the customer had it parked at my restaurant. :D

But seriously, is a tank really supposed to be a threat at a pizza joint? An amazing piece of machinery that doesn't do a damn thing while the owner stuffs his face with pizza? There'd be lots of attention, though. Especially from smart people that know that such a hunk of metal just sits there when it's unpiloted, and that it doesn't discharge if you hit the butt-end of it really hard with a rock.

Oh, and it's not too difficult to avoid getting killed by a tank in an urban setting. Much easier than, say, the "armed to the teeth" guys that are already there with their pistols.

Rocket launcher? How fast are you on the draw with one?

LMFAO Piers.
 
"A Tank, or a rocket launcher?"

"Shoot, I'd let the entire 82nd Airborne eat in my restaurant if they wanted to!"
 
Here, from a "mainstream" conservative perspective:

http://dailycaller.com/2012/12/07/framing-the-debate/

Shows what I mean more clearly, only they don't offer solutions, they just recognize the problem.

At least they explain it more clearly than I did...

It all started with "armed to the teeth", with no opposition to that remark... so it all went downhill from there.

If they start off saying something that makes you instinctually feel like you're going to have poor footing to stage an answer, stop and examine the words they used for a moment, even turn that back to them first and ask them to clarify or explain what they mean. They're trying to trip you up, see if you can get them to trip up trying to explain the wide pitch they just threw to you. Then people may see that it was not even close to the strike zone, or at least the "host" will feel the heat for throwing wide pitches.

"What do you mean, 'armed to the teeth'?"
 
Last edited:
Good grief people. This guy is a normal guy and he's on our side. Not everyone is a debate genius ,knows all the talking points and speaks like Winston Churchill. Give the guy a break.
Especially considering you are on national television. Every time I think Piers Morgan can't still be an ass and consider listening to him interview or debate people I am disappointed. He's dangerously close to being as obnoxious as he was with Larry Pratt. I would love for Alex Jones to come back on and put that POS back in his place. After Alex Jones, Morgan was actually somewhat respectful for a few days.

ETA: Oh, and their pizza looked delicious. If I was anywhere near the area I'd definitely stop in.
 
Last edited:
It all started with "armed to the teeth", with no opposition to that remark... so it all went downhill from there.

If they start off saying something that makes you instinctually feel like you're going to have poor footing to stage an answer, stop and examine the words they used for a moment, even turn that back to them first and ask them to clarify or explain what they mean. They're trying to trip you up, see if you can get them to trip up trying to explain the wide pitch they just threw to you. Then people may see that it was not even close to the strike zone, or at least the "host" will feel the heat for throwing wide pitches.

Right, even if you don't make the other guy stumble, you at least obviate the first staging and maybe get a new one you can turn more easily.

The key, when they frame the debate, is to take one of the points and do a pivot into some other framework they do not expect.

Once you put them off the lead, stay a step ahead and let their frames sink into quicksand.

The left mostly engages in sophistry, not debate. Well, the right does it too, but the left is a lot better at it. Where we go wrong is we think doing an excellent enough debate is somehow going to shut down the left. It never will because they aren't debating. They are using techniques of sophistry to try and make us tie ourselves into a straight jacket. You don't get to use that amazing debate skill until you have demolished their framework and replaced it with one of your own. THEN you can go about putting out the amazing debate skills and make the poor demolished lefty cry.

We have an inherent advantage if we learn to do this well. We are by and large amazing debaters, because of all the practice that suffering this reframing has given us, so once we get PAST that false framework we can piss all over the left with impunity.

You don't beat Morgan by being a better debater, you beat Morgan by re-framing the debate into something he can't deal with.

We've all seen by now what happens when someone is effective at doing this to Morgan, he breaks down and calls you "unbelievable stupid" or some such. That means the guy just beat Morgan, and look what happens in the media coverage when that occurs. Morgan got hurt in the court of public opinion four times as bad by Larry Pratt's calm, quiet method of driving Piers to apoplexy, than he did by AJ's apoplectic rant. And Pratt didn't even re-frame very well at all...he was terribly clumsy about it, but even terribly clumsy shut Piers down because the left doesn't know how to deal with reframing the debate.

With these people it's not about being good or right, it's about learning the techniques of sophistry they use against us, and judo-flipping their own momentum back upon them. HB34 should get a kick out of that analogy...
 
I want to stop and take a second to talk about this idea that we shouldn't discuss ways to improve our skills and learn to demolish the left on their own petard, because the guys in the video did the best they could.

(see how I framed that?)

Seriously though, even framed objectively, ie "stop being so critical of a guy who was out-matched by an expert prevaricator" it doesn't add up. If we are not to discuss this, then how is the next guy going to know how to demolish the prevaricator?

The whole point is to learn, get better, and take the fight to the enemy and destroy him.

"Oh, we lost hill 350 because the enemy battalion was just too strong. Stop talking about it guys, they did the best they could you know."

No! NO NO NO NO NO! you analyze what happened and figure out what to do better so that next time you keep the damn hill and destroy the damn enemy!
 
problem with Morgan is when you start to make solid points, he interrupts with some inane BS, and turns down your mic...

AJ handled this problem like a pro.
 
problem with Morgan is when you start to make solid points, he interrupts with some inane BS, and turns down your mic...

AJ handled this problem like a pro.

And yet the court of public opinion went overwhelmingly to Pratt.

We aren't trying to sell libertarianism to libertarians, we've already GOT them!

We need to be bringing in the general public.
 
Makes me appreciate Alex Jones berating him as he did.

This +rep

The approach Alex Jones took was precisely the correct one.

I'll even give props to The Nuge as well.

The time for polite talk is done with these tyrants and their mouthpieces.

Fuck them and kiss my ass too.

You want 'em?

Come and take 'em, muthafuckers.

Otherwise, shut your word holes.
 
Last edited:
This +rep

The approach Alex Jones took was precisely the correct one.

I'll even give props to The Nuge as well.

The time for polite talk is done with these tyrants and their mouthpieces.

Fuck them and kiss my ass too.

You want 'em?

Come and take 'em, muthafuckers.

Otherwise, shut your word holes.

Well, sure its the right approach...to make the people who already agree feel better about agreeing. That works great for rallies and echo chambers. Expanding an electoral base into a victory coalition, well, not so much. :(
 
It's OK tho, I have firmly accepted my role as a Cassandra amongst an entire movement of nothing but Cassandras. It's the role I've played going on 5 years now, it's not like this time is going to be any different. :p
 
You don't beat Morgan by being a better debater, you beat Morgan by re-framing the debate into something he can't deal with.

I'd love to see someone with the academic background and personality of a Tom Woods tackling this issue in a series of talks or short Youtube videos.
 
I'd love to see someone with the academic background and personality of a Tom Woods tackling this issue in a series of talks or short Youtube videos.

Tom Woods ia a master at reframing. Morgan knows it and wouldn't dare debate Woods in a million years.
 
I wonder if Piers Morgan is a criminal or a mentally ill...and I'm sure he's doing his spin doctoring & propaganda services for free rather than for profit & extremely cynical commercial purposes himself. *ilied*
 
Last edited:
Well, sure its the right approach...to make the people who already agree feel better about agreeing. That works great for rallies and echo chambers. Expanding an electoral base into a victory coalition, well, not so much. :(

Gunny, god bless ya man, you are better man than I, and I've said so a number of times.

See, I'm done talking, the lines are pretty much formed with crystal clear demarcation.

All that talking and elections do, at this point, is give the enemy time to re-group and refine their position, to keep coming back again and again and again.

Shoot some hideous legislation down, and it just comes back in a few months with different wording.

The gun banners have found what works, they will put this into a "medical" perspective, and once you have the neo-Puritan prohibitionists in line, fresh from their anti tobacco victories, gun rights will be dead in 30 years.

Enough talk already...I'm done talking. Frankly very tired of it.

Make a move or shut the fuck up, that's my outlook toward government right now.
 
Back
Top