Peter Schiff was WRONG!!!!

I guess you could start with it's impact on the USD. The price of gold is another example. Look at Bob Murphy's predictions, as well as Schiff's. When you predict high or even hyper inflation year after year, and inflation ends up being below historical average, something must be flawed in your model or way of understanding the monetary system. I'm not saying I'm anti Austrian, but there is nothing wrong with re-evaluating, especially in a "science" like economics, where there is still a lot that we don't understand.

As far as I know, the only particular "prediction" Bob Murphy made with respect to inflation and QE was the bet he made with another economist about what the official CPI number would be at a particular date. His prediction was wrong - and he owned it so and ponied up on his bet. Your claims to the contrary notwithstanding, Bob Murphy does NOT run around predicting "hyperinflation year after year." (I cannot speak regarding Schiff one way or the other, as I do not follow him - but Schiff is not an Austrian economist so much as he is a "fellow traveler." Assigning criticism to Austrian economic theory on the basis of whatever predictions Schiff or other "Austrian-style" or "gold bug" businessmen, investment advisors and "market watchers" happen to make is inapt and misguided.)

Furthermore, Murphy's specific prediction in that one particular case was NOT based on Austrian economics per se. Murphy did not ever say that "Austrian economic theory tells us that inflation will be this or that particular value at this or that particular point in time." (In fact, Austrian economists explicitly reject the idea that that sort of "prediction" is even possible to begin with.) Murphy's prediction was informed by Austrian economics, but it was not derived from Austrian economics. It was derived from psychology (in the light of Austrian economics). That is, it was based on Murphy's personal expectations about how investors and others would react to QE - but he failed to anticpate that banks would hold on to as much QE-created reserves as they did. And that is exactly the sort of thing that makes consistent and reliable economic predictions of that sort and specificity so impossibly fraught to begin with. (Being familiar with Murphy's work and style, I very seriously doubt that it's a mistake he'll ever make again.)

As for your assertion that "when you predict [higher inflation and inflation ends up being lower] something must be flawed in your model or way of understanding the monetary system": it does NOT follow that "something must be flawed in your model." That is merely one possibility. Alternatively, it may be that the veracity or accuracy of inflation measurements is what is flawed - or it may be that your application of your model with respect to those inputs is what is flawed. (It is this latter alternative that tripped up Bob Murphy, not any "flaw" in Austrian economics.)
 
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I'm referring more to the Austrian economists who made the inaccurate predictions than the Austrian school. People sure like to take credit for the Austrian school when Schiff predicted the housing bubble though, so its hard to completely separate the two when they are wrong.

Schiff is not an economist. He does know of the Austrian business cycle theory though, which is why he could predict the housing bubble, and why I can tell you there is a bubble in stocks, and there is a huge bubble in U.S. debt. They will both burst, but I don't know when, and the bond bubble will be harder to pop because we have our guns pointed at anyone thinking about abandoning the dollar.
 
Yeah, it's not like countries are slowly but surely systematically dumping the dollar or anything. :rolleyes:



How so? Gold was $840/oz when QE started. It's been as high as nearly $2000/oz and currently around $1300/oz and looks to be on the way back up again. Are you suggesting gold hasn't been greatly affected? This is even with obvious and proven manipulation by central backs and bullion banks playing paper games. If you're suggesting that some thought the price of gold would be even higher, blame them for underestimating the lengths banks will go to manipulate it.



Oh you're a "price inflation" Keynesian. When the Fed and other CBs are literally pumping 100's of trillions into markets just to maintain the status quo, it's safe to say the currencies have been hyperinflated by Austrian standards. Can you please point out what the current M3 is? Oh yeah, you can't, because they stop counting.

Btw, nice 1-2 punch troll tactic there to try to discredit Schiff over the IRS stuff. acesfull/cocrehamster

1- the dollar has done nothing but become stronger in recent years.

2. I'm simply observing and commenting on predictions I've seen. According to schiff gold should be $5k now and the US government should be insolvent.

3. What is a "price inflation keynesian"? I don't label myself under any school of economics.

4. Are you claiming acesfull and I are the same person? Another conspiracy lol.. sorry to disappoint you but you're wrong again.

I really don't care if you continue to follow these guys, but like it or not they have been wrong on pretty much everything since the financial crisis began.

Does Murphy even use a model for his predictions or does he just pull them out of his ass? I would think that economic forecasts from an Austrian economist would be based on Austrian economic theory.
 
1. It's called a bubble. For 25 years housing did nothing but get stronger until it didn't.

2. What specific predictions people make means nothing to me. And the U.S. government is insolvent.

I don't follow anyone. I research for myself. And Austrian economics doesn't have models. If you need models then you need to pay more attention to the scumbag professor in whatever Macro 101 class you are taking.
 
1. It's called a bubble. For 25 years housing did nothing but get stronger until it didn't.

2. What specific predictions people make means nothing to me. And the U.S. government is insolvent.

I don't follow anyone. I research for myself. And Austrian economics doesn't have models. If you need models then you need to pay more attention to the scumbag professor in whatever Macro 101 class you are taking.

1. Would you have been better off calling the housing market a bubble for the last 25 years or buying a house 25 years ago? If bubble predictions don't actually happen within a pretty short period of time then they are pretty worthless.

2. I'm not in a macro 101 class but I do study economics, mainly financial economics. If they don't have models then any predictions are pulled directly out of their asses. No wonder they have been so wrong.
 
1. It's called a bubble. For 25 years housing did nothing but get stronger until it didn't.

2. What specific predictions people make means nothing to me. And the U.S. government is insolvent.

I don't follow anyone. I research for myself. And Austrian economics doesn't have models. If you need models then you need to pay more attention to the scumbag professor in whatever Macro 101 class you are taking.

The housing bubble didn't really begin until about 1999. Until then, the price of housing tended to rise at pretty much the same rate as everything else.

But rapidly rising housing prices were a bubble. Peter Schiff was not the only to recognize that. He did fail to recognize a similar bubble in the price of gold though- and continues to say "this time it is different! Gold will always continue to rise! It has to!" which is exactly what bubble deniers also say (and Schiff criticizes them for while doing it himself).
 
The housing bubble didn't really begin until about 1999. Until then, the price of housing tended to rise at pretty much the same rate as everything else.

But rapidly rising housing prices were a bubble. Peter Schiff was not the only to recognize that. He did fail to recognize a similar bubble in the price of gold though- and continues to say "this time it is different! Gold will always continue to rise! It has to!" which is exactly what bubble deniers also say (and Schiff criticizes them for while doing it himself).

HAHAHA! keep 'em coming. Comedy gold. Gold is simply the inverse of the dollar. Saying Gold is in a bubble simply means the USD is way way undervalued.

Here's your precious USD chart. Expect a waterfall decline before this decades out.

au3650nyb.gif
 
1- the dollar has done nothing but become stronger in recent years.

Compared to other failing currencies, the dollar has periods of up and down. The dollar itself has not become stronger compared to the dollar in the past. The DX is very high right now but, strangely outside of a gas pump, the strengthening dollar isn't buying me anymore than it did when it was lower. My purchasing power should be higher now, right? Strengthening dollar and all! Look, it is a constantly depreciating asset, by design. I'm also still waiting on that M3 chart to prove no hyperinflation.....can you direct me to it? How can either of us argue what's going on without the most basic of evidence to interpret?

2. I'm simply observing and commenting on predictions I've seen. According to schiff gold should be $5k now and the US government should be insolvent.

Gov't is insolvent and has been for a long time but I won't turn this into a history lesson. Besides in the real world, outside of fantasy bank world where money just appears out of thin air, having more liabilities to pay than revenues to pay with is insolvency. When regular people live on credit to make up for shortfalls, consumer banks call it debt pyramiding and shut off your credit.

3. What is a "price inflation keynesian"? I don't label myself under any school of economics.

What is your definition of inflation? That's the measure of whether you're a keynesian.

4. Are you claiming acesfull and I are the same person? Another conspiracy lol.. sorry to disappoint you but you're wrong again.

No, I didn't say you and acesfull are the same person. I said it's a 1-2 punch troll tactic and an obvious one. Btw, if I were alleging you and acesfull are the same person, that would not be a conspiracy. A conspiracy requires at least two people. Perhaps you should learn what the word 'conspiracy' means and it's root word 'conspire'.

I really don't care if you continue to follow these guys, but like it or not they have been wrong on pretty much everything since the financial crisis began.

What they're not wrong about is the dollar heading for a brick wall. The rest is details, up for individual interpretation and action.
 
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Compared to other failing currencies, the dollar has periods of up and down. The dollar itself has not become stronger compared to the dollar in the past. The DX is very high right now but, strangely outside of a gas pump, the strengthening dollar isn't buying me anymore than it did when it was lower. My purchasing power should be higher now, right? Strengthening dollar and all! Look, it is a constantly depreciating asset, by design. I'm also still waiting on that M3 chart to prove no hyperinflation.....can you direct me to it? How can either of us argue what's going on without the most basic of evidence to interpret?
When did I claim there was deflation? And do I really need to prove to you that we are not experiencing hyperinflation in the USD? What planet are you from? You can argue about how well CPI represents the price level, but it's a better measure than the money supply. If the productive capacity of the economy increases along with the money supply, is that still inflation in your world? A lot more than just the quantity of money matters when you're talking about the strength of a currency.


Gov't is insolvent and has been for a long time but I won't turn this into a history lesson. Besides in the real world, outside of fantasy bank world where money just appears out of thin air, having more liabilities to pay than revenues to pay with is insolvency. When regular people live on credit to make up for shortfalls, consumer banks call it debt pyramiding and shut off your credit.
Definition of insolvency according to Investopedia:
"DEFINITION OF 'INSOLVENCY
When an individual or organization can no longer meet its financial obligations with its lender or lenders as debts become due. Insolvency can lead to insolvency proceedings, in which legal action will be taken against the insolvent entity, and assets may be liquidated to pay off outstanding debts."

Having more liabilities than revenue is not insolvency, if it were, many perfectly solvent institutions and people, including most people with a mortgage, would be insolvent. The US is not insolvent, again, at least on this planet.

What is your definition of inflation? That's the measure of whether you're a keynesian.

Well by your definition, if you're not an Austrian, you're a Keynesian. The generally accepted definition of inflation on this planet is the price level. It's probably better at this point to just call your definition monetary inflation or another term

No, I didn't say you and acesfull are the same person. I said it's a 1-2 punch troll tactic and an obvious one. Btw, if I were alleging you and acesfull are the same person, that would not be a conspiracy. A conspiracy requires at least two people. Perhaps you should learn what the word 'conspiracy' means and it's root word 'conspire'.

Well then I have no idea what you're talking about, I saw someones post and replied to it.

What they're not wrong about is the dollar heading for a brick wall. The rest is details, up for individual interpretation and action.
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Up until today all of their predictions and timelines on the subject have been wrong. I guess we'll just have to keep waiting, I'm sure it's right around the corner, just a few more years....
 
And for the record, I think that the Austrian school has a lot of insight to offer, and I'm not trying to completely bash it. Hayeks use of knowledge in society is probably my favorite academic paper I've ever read. I just don't think they (or any "school") have all the answers and they should be called out like anyone else when they make doomsday or other outlandish predictions that don't happen.
 
When did I claim there was deflation? And do I really need to prove to you that we are not experiencing hyperinflation in the USD? What planet are you from? You can argue about how well CPI represents the price level, but it's a better measure than the money supply. If the productive capacity of the economy increases along with the money supply, is that still inflation in your world? A lot more than just the quantity of money matters when you're talking about the strength of a currency.

Since all you talk about is prices, it is assured that you are a keynesian. Thank you for clearing that up. Perhaps you are on the wrong forum? What is your desire to argue with those that subscribe to the Austrian school? To answer your question, any increase in the money supply is inflation and is a devaluation of the money. Passing out more of it to more people doesn't make it worth more. It just makes it worth less, especially when we're talking about pieces of paper and numbers in computers. This is plainly obvious by examining historical purchasing power.

Definition of insolvency according to Investopedia:
"DEFINITION OF 'INSOLVENCY
When an individual or organization can no longer meet its financial obligations with its lender or lenders as debts become due. Insolvency can lead to insolvency proceedings, in which legal action will be taken against the insolvent entity, and assets may be liquidated to pay off outstanding debts."

Having more liabilities than revenue is not insolvency, if it were, many perfectly solvent institutions and people, including most people with a mortgage, would be insolvent. The US is not insolvent, again, at least on this planet.

This would be accurate if the borrowing ever stopped and a budget was eventually balanced or showed a surplus. Perpetual borrowing to maintain a facade is indeed insolvency. The only question is when the creditor stops supporting it and calls the debt. Besides "wealth" can not be created in a computer....that is an illusion of wealth. If a father dies and his son inherits his father's ability to borrow large sums of money, does that mean the father has passed down wealth to the son? I think not. He has passed down a privilege that can be revoked at any time.

Well by your definition, if you're not an Austrian, you're a Keynesian. The generally accepted definition of inflation on this planet is the price level. It's probably better at this point to just call your definition monetary inflation or another term

For the sheep, prices are the definition of inflation. That is intentionally misleading. Indeed, I am referring to monetary inflation. I thought that much was clear.

Up until today all of their predictions and timelines on the subject have been wrong. I guess we'll just have to keep waiting, I'm sure it's right around the corner, just a few more years....

Depends on the scale. Will there be a "dollar" in the US for a long time to come? Certainly. There is no question about that. What form it will take, what value it will have, and other variables is the question. Will the dollar be the global reserve currency for the rest of the world for a long time to come? No way. Anyone paying attention knows this to be true.

The goal of keynesian economics is to confuse economics to the point that it is not understood by the masses at all, so they will go along with whatever the controllers deem appropriate.
 
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Timing financial markets is not easy. No matter how clear the fundamentals are, you can't always predict how the masses will react. I bet the majority of Peter's predictions will be proven right with time.
 
Timing financial markets is not easy. No matter how clear the fundamentals are, you can't always predict how the masses will react. I bet the majority of Peter's predictions will be proven right with time.

The truly astounding thing is that the time when he was "totally right," the time when he was completely vindicated at last, the time when all the unorthodox things he'd been saying were proven true, the time when the chickens he'd been prepping for showed up on the doorstep to roost -- that very time, when "Peter Schiff was Right!" was precisely the time when you would have been losing prodigious amounts of money if you had it invested with Peter's EuroPacific Capital, or even were just independently following his advice! Can you believe that? It's unbelievable but true! Can you imagine that? Peter is suddenly an all-star, is gloating on every channel about how right he is, and meanwhile staggering sums of cash are draining, draining, right out of your pocket. 60%, 70%, even 80%, Poof! Gone!

That is Peter Schiff's most embarrassing failure. If I were him, that is what I would be most embarrassed about. That's what I would reflect upon: "How could my investment advice have failed so thoroughly and utterly at the very time when my forecasts of collapse were coming true?"

As I told Danke and dannno earlier: if you've got money with him (and Danke's father does) you'd better hope he's not right again! In the past, when Peter was "wrong," when everyone was laughing at him, 2000-2006 for instance, his investments dis pretty OK. Also now, for that matter, 2009-2015. Nothing to write home about, but at least you're not getting wiped out.

No, if you're investing according to Peter Schiff's advice, you had better hope and pray he's not "right" ever again.
 
I guess you could start with it's impact on the USD. The price of gold is another example. Look at Bob Murphy's predictions, as well as Schiff's. When you predict high or even hyper inflation year after year, and inflation ends up being below historical average, something must be flawed in your model or way of understanding the monetary system. I'm not saying I'm anti Austrian, but there is nothing wrong with re-evaluating, especially in a "science" like economics, where there is still a lot that we don't understand.

I notice that you never replied to Occam's Banana, who had the best response for you, shedding the most light upon what you're asking. I'd encourage you to do so!

In the meantime, here's a little more thoughts from my little brain:

You are looking at economics as a science. OK. And so it should be judged by the same standard as other sciences. Seems reasonable. In physics, if you have a theory, how do you know if it's true? Easy: it predicts the future! That's it. That's the sum total of how we decide what's true and false in physics.

And so you're applying that same standard to economics. As you say, if you predict one thing, but a different thing happens, then your theory is bogus, plain and simple. It may seem right. You may have a bookshelf full of Keynes explaining why it should be right. Just so, you may have a bookshelf full or Aristotle explaining the spontaneous generation of life, or why women have fewer teeth than men. But if it fails to predict the future -- if next year you count all the teeth in all the mouths of Athens and the tally is grossly off -- then your theory is wrong. (In the actual history of science, what will most likely happen at this point is that you or someone else will come up with a mitigating factor explaining why the amazing properties of the water in Athens causes women to have an unusual amount of teeth, almost as many as men, in fact, and that the original theory is still totally sound and correct. But ideally, at that point you should instead start rethinking everything, and be willing to toss the theory out entirely.)

And that's all great! About the false predictions disproving the theory, that is. All Austrians would probably agree with you. Here's the kicker, though: Austrians, true Austrians, don't make predictions. At least not as Austrians, they don't. Not scientifically they don't. No scientific predictions are coming out of the Austrian School. Austrian economics is not an empirical science. It does not make future predictions. Its theories are not of the kind that can be confirmed or disproven by predicting or failing to predict the future. The entire methodology of the Austrians is completely different.

So, in what sense is economics a science, you ask. In the same sense as mathematics or logic. You can't disprove Pythagoras by measuring a bunch of triangles. Mathematics is not fundamentally an empirical science. Neither is economics, though both do have very solid, empirical consequences.

Here's the methodological insight -- the break-through! -- of the Austrians: humans are not billiard balls. They are unpredictable. They'll do something different every time. They're always learning. Or forgetting. The situation's always different. You just don't know what they'll do. And so you can't predict their future. You can predict the future of that ball rolling down the ramp, but you can't predict the future of that child in the bassinet. Much less 6 billion of them. You can't predict the interest rate next year. You can't predict inflation. You can't predict the global currency markets. You can't even predict the local haircut market. It all just depends on the individual choices of billions of independent, unpredictable, out-of-control human beings.

The other schools of economics do not accept this. And so they do make predictions. And their predictions will generally be wrong, one way or another. If they get something right, it will probably be by luck or coincidence. Only the Austrians step out of that game. Only the Austrians have recognized the fundamental difference between physics (and chemistry, and astronomy...) and economics.

The Keynesians predict. The New-Keynesians predict. The Post-Keynesians predict. The Monetarists predict. All these "main-stream" schools predict. And they get it wrong, over and over and over. And so, of course, they come up with excuses about remarkable tooth-proliferating properties of the Athenian baths. Just as neo-Ptolemaic theories prevailed for almost 200 years after Copernicus, neo-Keynesian variants still control economics and government policy today. It's amazing, but it's true! They are so obviously failed and wrong that at some point maybe someone will notice. Maybe in 200 years. As for the Austrians: we noticed already.

For the investor, these things have very real consequences! It's not just academic! If you believe that this gaggle of New-Keynesians and Post-Keynesians and Old Keynesians have correct theories you likely will lose money! Their theories predict the future, and that future will not come true (except by random chance). If you believe that someone -- anyone -- has an inside track to the future, you will likely lose money. Jim Cramer doesn't know the future. Warren Buffet doesn't know the future. Paul Krugman doesn't know the future. To the extent that Peter Schiff predicts the future, he is not an Austrian, he's just another crystal ball-gazer. His predictions are just as foolish and wrong as the rest.

The reason I picked Peter Schiff as the subject of this thread is just to point out: no one is immune from this lack of knowledge of the future actions of humans. Even people we like and with whom we agree.
 
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Look, it is a constantly depreciating asset, by design.

End of story. :)
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Helmuth,

Schiff predicted a few years ago, when it was $1,400/Oz, that gold will be $10,000/Oz (7X). That's not nearly as outrageous as predicting gold would rise from $35/Oz to $800/Oz (23 X) within a decade, when Friedman advised Nixon that removing the $ from gold would stabilize fiat currencies.

40 years since of massive, unrelenting debt through a fiat currency that's designed to constantly depreciate and was only tied to petroleum through massive bribery and military action.

Is 40 years the limit, or do we have another 40 years?
 
Is 40 years the limit, or do we have another 40 years?

That's precisely what I explicitly claim to not know!

I mean, was this guy right?

51hqpNTgvBL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


All the same factors he outlined for why there was a Coming Great Depression are the same ones that exist today. And yet, 1980 came and went, and no Great Depression.

Or how about this guy:

511thCkLQEL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


Once again, the 1990s seem to have gone a little differently than he expected.

How about this:

71XYXEtvGQL.jpg


Here's a guy that got the '90s right, unlike Ravi! He called it, that the '90s were going to be a huge boom. Surely he knows what he's talking about, right? And yet, how come no one has heard of this "Internet Depression" he told us was coming?

OK, OK, some guys were wrong, but what about this:

51pu9B624mL.jpg


This guy surely knows what's going to happen. He's read his Rothbard. Well, OK, so had Casey back in 1980. But this time will be different. Right? There has to be somebody who can tell me the future! Take my money, please! Sell me your newsletter! Charge your advisement fees! Just tell me what's going to happen, already!!!
 
End of story. :)
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Helmuth,

Schiff predicted a few years ago, when it was $1,400/Oz, that gold will be $10,000/Oz (7X). That's not nearly as outrageous as predicting gold would rise from $35/Oz to $800/Oz (23 X) within a decade, when Friedman advised Nixon that removing the $ from gold would stabilize fiat currencies.

40 years since of massive, unrelenting debt through a fiat currency that's designed to constantly depreciate and was only tied to petroleum through massive bribery and military action.

Is 40 years the limit, or do we have another 40 years?

At least 40% of the world's population and the recently declared "largest economy in the world", China, has already committed to remove the dollar as reserve. This will keep spreading and it is not accidental. Davos level bankers have no loyalty to any country. They sap a country of it's wealth (gold, resources, and labor) then move on to the next one to start the cycle over again, like a swarm of locusts.
 
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