Peter Schiff talks about Mish

[headhawg7]

http://www.sitkapacific.com/files/Sitka_Pacific_Capital_Management_Absolute_Return_Portfolio.pdf

Mish has outperformed both the S&P Benchmark and the Hedge Fund industry tracker over the last 5 years.

Schiff's funds, on the other hand, have trailed both benchmarks. Unsurprising that he, unlike Mish, doesn't make his results easy to find.

Not to mention the exorbitant fees he charges those that trade through his firm.

Why are you only going back 5 years?

 

[LibertyIn08]

Why are you only going back 5 years?

That's a fairly standard time frame for a firm that's only been around 7 years. I'm sure when the fund hits 10 years they'll have a 10 year track record.

That being said, that is also irrelevant as the linked document also contains a performance column for the fund since inception. It has beaten both indices over that length of time as well.

 

[Madison320]

Isn't that irrelevant to whether Schiff's criticism of Mish's firm is accurate?

No because Schiff's investment strategy is based on the dollar collapsing.

Schiff's strategy is based on Austrian economics and the belief that US debt is going to cause the dollar to collapse. Shedlock is more of a Keynesian.

I'm confused by the large amount of anti Schiff comments coming from a Ron Paul site. You do realize that Schiff's investment strategy is about the same as Ron Paul's right?

 

[Madison320]

http://www.sitkapacific.com/files/Sitka_Pacific_Capital_Management_Absolute_Return_Portfolio.pdf

Not to mention the exorbitant fees he charges those that trade through his firm.

Do you have proof of the "exorbitant fees"? I've never used his investment company but I have bought gold from his precious metals company. I paid 4% above spot for 1 ounce Canadian maple leafs, which is a pretty good deal.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Peter - the paragon of principle. The man who uses his books to attracts clients who overpay by exceptional margins for basic brokerage operations and underperfoming funds with egregious management fees.

Yes, lets just take his word on the matter.

At least Mish has the guts to admit when he's wrong.

That's cool of him. He used to do a segment on Charles Goyette's show. Mish should find another public forum because even when he's inaccurate, he's interesting.

 

[jclay2]

Do you have proof of the "exorbitant fees"? I've never used his investment company but I have bought gold from his precious metals company. I paid 4% above spot for 1 ounce Canadian maple leafs, which is a pretty good deal.

Yes! My dad used his firm. They were extremely high near 3-4 % for canadian energy stocks. I tried as hard as I could to shift him away from it, but he go suckered in by Schiff's presentation and commentary. BTW, those commission rates are absurd. Just go check Interactive brokers foriegn stock market rates to see. On IB, the rate for canadian stocks is 1 penny per share! Schiff is a joke as far as being a moral business man. While I agree with most of his opinions on the economy, he is a self serving individual looking after himself before the people he serves.

 

[misean]

Understanding how the economy works over the long term and being a good trader are two skill sets that have zero correlation with each other. You could be the best trader of all time (see Soros) and not understand basic economics. On the flip side there are almost no economists that make money in the markets.

 

[LibertyIn08]

Do you have proof of the "exorbitant fees"? I've never used his investment company but I have bought gold from his precious metals company. I paid 4% above spot for 1 ounce Canadian maple leafs, which is a pretty good deal.

Unfortunately they're not transparent on their site as to specific fees. (This is in and of itself a warning sign)

2. What are your fees for buying non-U.S. listed foreign stocks?
We charge a percentage markup on all foreign trades that varies based on the size of each individual transaction and the total size of the portfolio. These fees can vary from as much as 5% (e.g. $50 to buy $1,000 of a single foreign stock), to less than 1% for a single stock transaction in excess of $1 million. Most clients will end up paying between 2% and 3% to build a full portfolio of foreign stocks. The more diversified the portfolio, the higher our transaction costs and the more we charge for our services. It is important to discuss with your broker the fees involved prior to placing any orders, so that you understand the exact percentage that you will be charged.

Thankfully there is plenty of anecdotal evidence for their fees:

I talked to a broker today at EuroPac in Orange Co., CA. He said they charge 3% up front. It only drops to 2.5% at a million.

For the vast majority of individual investors, this is a terrible deal. Doubly so if they're investing in his underperforming funds.

No because Schiff's investment strategy is based on the dollar collapsing.

Schiff's strategy is based on Austrian economics and the belief that US debt is going to cause the dollar to collapse. Shedlock is more of a Keynesian.

I'm confused by the large amount of anti Schiff comments coming from a Ron Paul site. You do realize that Schiff's investment strategy is about the same as Ron Paul's right?

If it was "about the same" how come Ron has relatively outperformed the market while Schiff has underperformed both the hedge fund index and the broader market indices?

Further, Mish is not a Keynesian. He is most definitely an adherent of the Austrian school

Take a look at the post by Mish that set all of this off 3 years ago: http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2009/01/peter-schiff-was-wrong.html

Does this strike you as the writing of a Keynesian?

Regarding your broader point, again - it is irrelevant. I'd rather have a portfolio run by someone generating alpha over a very long run than someone running a portfolio that only performs well in a very long tail situation - especially when their track record doesn't indicate that they'd even outperform in that long tail situation.

 

[itshappening]

MISH has no credibility. He wrote an article attacking Peter Schiff by taking one account over a period of one year that was bad for miners and then used that to say he was "wrong" when infact that portfolio has recovered and is actually up right now despite MISH claiming it would take 20 years to recover. the portfolio in MISH's attack piece on Schiff recovered and are up within a few years.

Mish wrote the article and his firm brought in $50m in business. Peter said Mish's company manages $70m.

He attacked Schiff with a ridiculous article to smear him and gain business for his own firm. It brought in $50m but hardly anything since then. He is back to desperately attack Schiff and try and attract more business. The man has no credibility.

 

[Madison320]

Yes! My dad used his firm. They were extremely high near 3-4 % for canadian energy stocks. I tried as hard as I could to shift him away from it, but he go suckered in by Schiff's presentation and commentary. BTW, those commission rates are absurd. Just go check Interactive brokers foriegn stock market rates to see. On IB, the rate for canadian stocks is 1 penny per share! Schiff is a joke as far as being a moral business man. While I agree with most of his opinions on the economy, he is a self serving individual looking after himself before the people he serves.

I asked the manager at Schiff's precious metals company (who I bought my gold from) to respond. Here is what he wrote:

**********************************************************************
The transactional fees are slim with any online broker dealer. Sure, if an investor wants to do his own stock picking, he’ll just pay the transactional costs per trade.

EPC clients pay to get Peter’s market insights and investment recommendations and to work one-on-one with a broker who will tailor a portfolio that is suitable to each individual client. 3% is very standard within the brokerage industry.
**********************************************************************


I did some research on this and found you are not comparing apples to apples. Schiff's firm is a full service broker dealing in foreign accounts so if you want to compare prices you need to make sure it's both a full service broker and you're buying foreign stocks.

Here is a price quote I found from another international full service broker recommened by Casey Research:

**********************************************************************
Question : What is your commission structure?
Answer : We believe that our commissions are very competitive, especially in light of our specialized services. They generally fall somewhere between those of the “discount brokers” and the larger, full-service brokerage firms. In percentage terms, you can expect to pay somewhere between 1/2 percent and 3.5 percent depending on the price of the shares and the number of shares traded, subject to a minimum of $60 per trade. There is a minimum opening transaction requirement of $1,500. Additionally, there will be a $35 charge deducted from your account annually unless you make at least two trades per year or maintain a cash balance over $10,000. To receive a commission-rate quote on a specific transaction, please don’t hesitate to call and speak with a Global registered representative.
**********************************************************************

So it would appear that 3-4% is within industry standards.

 

[Madison320]

Further, Mish is not a Keynesian. He is most definitely an adherent of the Austrian school

And he thinks we're going to DEFLATION!!! LOL! He needs to go back to school!

 

[Qdog]

Yes! My dad used his firm. They were extremely high near 3-4 % for canadian energy stocks. I tried as hard as I could to shift him away from it, but he go suckered in by Schiff's presentation and commentary. BTW, those commission rates are absurd. Just go check Interactive brokers foriegn stock market rates to see. On IB, the rate for canadian stocks is 1 penny per share! Schiff is a joke as far as being a moral business man. While I agree with most of his opinions on the economy, he is a self serving individual looking after himself before the people he serves.

Isn't that what a businessman is supposed to do? Its not charity. Its about making money. Ayn Rand talked about shit like this. Rational self interest. Watch the movie Atlas Shrugged.

 

[jbauer]

No because Schiff's investment strategy is based on the dollar collapsing.

Schiff's strategy is based on Austrian economics and the belief that US debt is going to cause the dollar to collapse. Shedlock is more of a Keynesian.

I'm confused by the large amount of anti Schiff comments coming from a Ron Paul site. You do realize that Schiff's investment strategy is about the same as Ron Paul's right?

What dont you people understand? If the dollar colapses investing in anything is screwed. I wont matter if its gold, realestate, stocks, bonds etc etc. Schiff's investment phloisophy is that investing in foreign companies will save you. Guess what it wont. But hey if you wanna pay 4.5% in and high on going go for it.

 

[jj-]

What dont you people understand? If the dollar colapses investing in anything is screwed. I wont matter if its gold, realestate, stocks, bonds etc etc. Schiff's investment phloisophy is that investing in foreign companies will save you. Guess what it wont. But hey if you wanna pay 4.5% in and high on going go for it.

^hahahahahahahha. when did RPF become a comedy club?

 

[Madison320]

What dont you people understand? If the dollar colapses investing in anything is screwed. I wont matter if its gold, realestate, stocks, bonds etc etc. Schiff's investment phloisophy is that investing in foreign companies will save you. Guess what it wont. But hey if you wanna pay 4.5% in and high on going go for it.

Really? So you think if the dollar collapses gold will be just as bad as treasury notes?

Come on, man.

 

[Madison320]

If it was "about the same" how come Ron has relatively outperformed the market while Schiff has underperformed both the hedge fund index and the broader market indices?

Wrong. Schiff strategy is very similar to Ron Paul's. Schiff's mutual funds have only been created in the last couple of years. His firm has been around since the mid 90's. Those funds are a tiny amount relative to the total amount of investing Schiff has done for his clients. Are you not aware of this?

You got any links to your claim that Ron Paul outperformed Peter Schiff? I find that highly unlikely considering they have the same overall strategy.

Do you think there is going to be inflation or deflation?

 

[LibertyIn08]

And he thinks we're going to DEFLATION!!! LOL! He needs to go back to school!

You obviously haven't read any of his work (including the link I posted) in deep detail. He was arguing for short- and perhaps mid-term deflation based on the available evidence. The Fed's QE program doesn't exist in a vacuum and what other nations are doing and how the dollars of the QE program are being transferred and spent is important.

There's nothing inherently un-Austrian (at least methodologically; whether it is shared by every Austrian isn't the point) about his arguments. If you think there is, you're likely the one who needs to review the materials.

 

[LibertyIn08]

Wrong. Schiff strategy is very similar to Ron Paul's. Schiff's mutual funds have only been created in the last couple of years. His firm has been around since the mid 90's. Those funds are a tiny amount relative to the total amount of investing Schiff has done for his clients. Are you not aware of this?

You got any links to your claim that Ron Paul outperformed Peter Schiff? I find that highly unlikely considering they have the same overall strategy.

Do you think there is going to be inflation or deflation?

The onus isn't on me to prove that. If Peter has evidence that his clients and his funds have outperformed Mish or even the broader market index, he needs to produce them. Based on what is publicly available, that isn't the case.

Again, we know the results of Ron's portfolio and can extrapolate backwards his historical performance (with some degree of confidence). It is certainly higher than the track records of Schiff's funds available through the research services - and likewise better than the anecdotal reports listed here and on other forums of clients of Schiff's who have lost considerable sums of money through outrageously high commissions and bad equity recommendations.

Finally, whether I believe there is going to be inflation or deflation is irrelevant to whether Schiff or Mish were right over the past 3 years (Schiff was wrong), whether Schiff or Mish performed better over the last 3, 5, 7 years (Schiff performed worse, barring new evidence to be presented by him to exonerate him from his funds poor performances) and it is likely irrelevant to whether or not my portfolio is going to do well over the long run, given that my currency, precious metal and equity exposure already has accounted for the potential for either - not to mention I have the ability to change portfolio allocation dynamically.

And thankfully I won't have to spend 1-3% per position to do it.

 

[Madison320]

Understanding how the economy works over the long term and being a good trader are two skill sets that have zero correlation with each other. You could be the best trader of all time (see Soros) and not understand basic economics. On the flip side there are almost no economists that make money in the markets.

Most economists are keynesians.

You need both skills to be a really good investor. You need to understand economics to get into the right overall strategy and you need to be good at picking individual companies. However I think it's more important to understand economics. I've done really well the last few years just by following Schiff's general strategy. I've got physical gold, gold and oil ETFs, foreign mining companies and a some other foreign based firms that pay high dividends.

Why don't you put all your money into treasuries? Shedlock says there's going to be deflation. Put you money where your mouth is!

 

[Madison320]

The onus isn't on me to prove that. If Peter has evidence that his clients and his funds have outperformed Mish or even the broader market index, he needs to produce them. Based on what is publicly available, that isn't the case.

Again, we know the results of Ron's portfolio and can extrapolate backwards his historical performance (with some degree of confidence). It is certainly higher than the track records of Schiff's funds available through the research services - and likewise better than the anecdotal reports listed here and on other forums of clients of Schiff's who have lost considerable sums of money through outrageously high commissions and bad equity recommendations.

Finally, whether I believe there is going to be inflation or deflation is irrelevant to whether Schiff or Mish were right over the past 3 years (Schiff was wrong), whether Schiff or Mish performed better over the last 3, 5, 7 years (Schiff performed worse, barring new evidence to be presented by him to exonerate him from his funds poor performances) and it is likely irrelevant to whether or not my portfolio is going to do well over the long run, given that my currency, precious metal and equity exposure already has accounted for the potential for either - not to mention I have the ability to change portfolio allocation dynamically.

And thankfully I won't have to spend 1-3% per position to do it.

You keep saying Schiff hasn't made any money but you haven't shown any proof. It's OBVIOUS his clients made money. Just look at gold for example. It was $300 an ounce in 2000 when Schiff recommended buying it. Plus I keep telling you that his funds are only a couple of years old and only a tiny fraction of his investing. But you keep ignoring that.

But the real evidence that you are wrong is that you keep insisting that it's IRRELEVANT whether we have DEFLATION or INFLATION for investors!!!! Are you kidding me??? I rest my case!!!