Penn & Teller's "BS" Yesterday on vaccinations...

Reason

Reason

Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2008
Messages
8,674
Basically the entire episode was calling people who don't get vaccinations nutjobs.
 
they are!

this is why

a) people need to know Penn is neither a saint, nor a patriot

b) I pointed out he doesn't believe 9/11 was a conspiracy

c) he also believes open borders is good

d) he mocks "carbon creditors" but doesn't know how to question AGW

you don't really believe vaccines cause autism, do you?
 
Last edited:
I watched quite a few episodes on netflix recently. That show is for entertainment, period. Some of the episodes are entertaining and I generally agree with them, other times they act like complete morons and use horrible evidence to back their claims.

John Stossel's new show "Stossel" is a WAAAAYY better libertarian show. Bullshit! is better if you wanna see some naked chicks.
 
For some it is an emotional, not logical, issue. The risks of the vaccines are incredibly small compared to the risks of getting the diseases you are vaccinated against. Some of them were the leading cause of premature death 100 years ago. How many have died from getting vaccinated?

http://massachusettsmom.blogspot.com/2009/01/death-linked-to-unvaccinated-child.html
Monday, January 26, 2009
Death linked to Unvaccinated child

According to the CDC, an infant has died in Minnesota (and four others are ill) from a disease that had all but been eradicated. Hib is the pathogen responsible for the deaths and it is one of the things for which children get vaccinated. In this case, according to the CDC, the infant who died had not been vaccinated and two other children who are ill had also not been vaccinated. The final two children had not received the full complement of vaccinations.
A tragic death that could have been avoided.
Click to expand...
http://massachusettsmom.blogspot.com/2009/01/death-linked-to-unvaccinated-child.html

http://www.chiroaccess.com/Articles/Unvaccinated-Children-Trigger-Measles-Outbreak.aspx?id=0000143
Unvaccinated Children Trigger Measles Outbreak

This information is provided to you for use in conjunction with your clinical judgment and the specific needs of the patient.

ChiroACCESS Editorial Staff ChiroACCESS Editorial StaffThe article was written by the combined efforts of the ChiroACCESS editorial staff.

ChiroACCESS

Published on March 22, 2010
Text Size: Share this:
An article published today (March 22, 2010) in the journal Pediatrics describes the reasons for the measles outbreak in San Diego in 2008. Seventy-five percent of the children involved in this California outbreak were unvaccinated. Multiple studies around the globe reflect the same risk to the unvaccined. Measles can have very serious complications and it is estimated that in 2000 there were 733,000 measles related deaths worldwide.
Click to expand...
 
How many horrific diseases have been eradicated thanks to vaccinations?
 
jmdrake said:
Regardless of the autism question, mass vaccination caused more deaths in 1976 than the feared "swine flu".
Click to expand...

It is unfortunately true that 25 people died of swine flu vaccine related issues. Out of millions who received the vaccination. The risk was less than one in 100,000. It is also unfortunately true that over 30,000 die every year from flu related causes. http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/us_flu-related_deaths.htm Which was the greater risk? Being one of the 25 or one of the 30,000?
 
dannno said:
I watched quite a few episodes on netflix recently. That show is for entertainment, period. Some of the episodes are entertaining and I generally agree with them, other times they act like complete morons and use horrible evidence to back their claims.

John Stossel's new show "Stossel" is a WAAAAYY better libertarian show. Bullshit! is better if you wanna see some naked chicks.
Click to expand...

Stossel also called out those opposing vaccinating their kids.

YouTube - Vaccine Fears -- Stossel In The Classroom
 
Zippyjuan said:
It is unfortunately true that 25 people died of swine flu vaccine related issues. Out of millions who received the vaccination. The risk was less than one in 100,000. It is also unfortunately true that over 30,000 die every year from flu related causes. http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/us_flu-related_deaths.htm Which was the greater risk? Being one of the 25 or one of the 30,000?
Click to expand...

How many people died from swine flu? One! But you love making apples and cabbage comparisons don't you? But hey go ahead and take your flu shot. I'm not stopping you. Also the seasonal flu shot only has about a 30% chance of being "right" any given year. That's because they have to guess at what the new flu strain will be. It's quite likely that many of the 30,000 deaths were of people who got the flu shot. You're better off just boosting your immune system.
 
Last edited:
Zippyjuan said:
It is unfortunately true that 25 people died of swine flu vaccine related issues. Out of millions who received the vaccination. The risk was less than one in 100,000. It is also unfortunately true that over 30,000 die every year from flu related causes. http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/us_flu-related_deaths.htm Which was the greater risk? Being one of the 25 or one of the 30,000?
Click to expand...

For it to have any real meaning, wouldn't you need to compare the number of people who got the vaccine against the number of people who died, and compare the odds of dying against the number of people who got the flu? You also have to weight the deaths according to other criteria like age and health.
 
jmdrake said:
How many people died from swine flu? One! But you love making apples and cabbage comparisons don't you? But hey go ahead and take your flu shot. I'm not stopping you. Also the seasonal flu shot only has about a 30% chance of being "right" any given year. That's because they have to guess at what the new flu strain will be. It's quite likely that many of the 30,000 deaths were of people who got the flu shot. You're better off just boosting your immune system.
Click to expand...

Can you measure how many people did NOT die because they got a flu vaccination? Was that greater than 25?

I should note that I do not get the flu vaccination becasue I am not an at-risk person. But I do agree on getting the childhood vaccinations. Things like Hepatitus B are probably not necessary either for kids but others are important.

This is from an article about a woman whose child nearly died because somebody else decided not to have their child immunized. The first mother's child had an immune deficiency which meant that vaccines would not work on her. So you are not just making the decision on behalf of your own children but others as well.


Brendalee Flint did everything she could to keep her baby safe. She nourished her with breast milk; she gave her all the routine vaccines. But Flint never realized how much her daughter's health would depend on the actions of her friends, neighbors and even strangers.
By 15 months old, Flint's daughter, Julieanna Metcalf, was walking, exploring and even saying her first few words. Then one day in the bath, while fighting what seemed like an ordinary stomach bug, Julieanna became so weak and floppy that she couldn't hold up her head.


"She couldn't say 'Help me,' but her eyes were begging me to do something," says Flint, 35.

Flint rushed the baby to the hospital, where she was diagnosed with meningitis, a swelling of the lining of the brain, caused by a severe case of Hib, or Haemophilus influenzae type b. Julieanna was one of five children in Minnesota hospitalized with Hib in January 2008, the state's biggest outbreak since 1992.

Three of the other Minnesota children hospitalized for Hib were unvaccinated, including one who died, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
Click to expand...
"I just want everybody to know what can happen if you don't vaccinate your baby," Flint says. "It's not just your kid. When you get your child vaccinated, it helps to protect the other kids who don't have the ability to protect themselves."

During the 2008 Hib outbreak, Flint's daughter began having seizures at the hospital, and doctors had to operate on her brain. They made an incision in her skull from one ear to the other. A priest performed a second baptism.

"I still remember walking her to the surgery room and giving her to the doctor," Flint says. "I didn't know if I would see her again."

Thanks to the success of vaccines, few parents today know anyone who has become sick with a serious contagious disease, says William Schaffner, an infectious-disease expert at Vanderbilt University School of Medicine. Instead, parents are often concerned about chronic illnesses, such as asthma, allergies or autism, which don't have a clear cause.
Click to expand...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2010-01-06-childhoodvaccines06_CV_N.htm
Nearly 30% of patients in the current mumps outbreak — which has hit communities in New York state, New Jersey and Quebec — failed to receive one or both recommended shots. And more than 90% of victims in the 2008 measles outbreaks, which sprouted up across the USA, were either unvaccinated or had unclear vaccination records, the CDC says.

A study published Monday in the Archives of Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine found that unvaccinated children are nine times as likely as others to contract chickenpox — which killed 100 children and hospitalized 10,000 a year before a vaccine became available in 1995. The same authors found that unvaccinated kids are 23 times as likely to develop whooping cough.

Danielle Romaguera's daughter, Gabrielle, was only 7 weeks old when she died from whooping cough — one week before she would have received her first shot.

Shannon Duffy Peterson of Minnesota says she realized the dangers of diseases such as chickenpox and pneumococcus only after her children became ill. She didn't vaccinate her son or daughter against either disease after their pediatrician said the shots weren't needed.

In 2001, both children were hospitalized because of a bacterial illness called invasive pneumococcal disease. Her 5-year-old son survived. Her daughter, Abigale, who was two weeks shy of turning 6, died.

"I can't tell parents enough the importance of vaccination," Peterson says in video on the PKIDs website. "I hope that no one else has to hold their child when they die."

Lingering effects

Julieanna spent a month in the hospital, mostly in intensive care. By the time Julieanna left the hospital, she had lost the ability to walk, talk and even swallow.

"It was like having a newborn again," Flint says. "I would rub her throat for swallowing and rub her cheeks for chewing. She couldn't crawl. She could scream, and that was about it."

Two years later, Julieanna still needs weekly injections to prop up her immune system — and might for the rest of her life, Flint says.

Although Julieanna has relearned how to walk, she often falls, Flint says. She attends special-education sessions, as well as physical therapy, speech therapy and occupational therapy.

Flint says she lives with the fear that Julieanna will suffer from lingering brain damage, as well as the knowledge that she remains vulnerable to a host of germs carried by her classmates.

"I don't know if she will grow out of this," says Flint, who spoke to Congress about vaccines in May. "I wish I could see what the future will be."

Schaffner says he sees vaccination as a part of the obligation of the strong to protect the weak.

"We all have to be protected, so the virus can't find these babies," Schaffner says. "We have to provide a cocoon of protection around them. We surround them with strength. I find that to be part of our responsibility. We cannot think just about ourselves."

Vaccines have nearly eliminated some diseases

Before vaccines became available, hundreds of thousands of Americans — including thousands of children — routinely came down with dreaded infectious diseases each year. Although vaccines have nearly eliminated many of these diseases, doctors say outbreaks in unvaccinated communities put everyone at risk.

Avg. annual cases, before vaccine Peak annual deaths, before vaccine Decline in cases Decline in deaths

Vaccines approved before 1980

Diphtheria 21,053 3,065 100% 100%

Measles 530,217 552 99% 100%

Mumps 162,344 50 96% 100%

Polio 16,316 5,865 100% 100%

Rubella (German measles) 47,745 2,184 99% 100%

Tetanus 580 511 93% 99%

Whooping cough 200,752 7,518 92% 99%

Vaccines approved after 1980

Chickenpox 4,085,120 138 85% 82%

Hepatitis A 117,333 298 87% 87%

Acute hepatitis B 66,232 267 80% 80%

Hib 20,000 Not available 99% 99%

Invasive pneumoccal disease 63,067 7,300 34% 25%


Source: The Journal of the American Medical Association
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Zippyjuan said:
Can you measure how many people did NOT die because they got a flu vaccination? Was that greater than 25?

I should note that I do not get the flu vaccination becasue I am not an at-risk person. But I do agree on getting the childhood vaccinations. Things like Hepatitus B are probably not necessary either for kids but others are important.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2010-01-06-childhoodvaccines06_CV_N.htm
Click to expand...

I give you one better. A study of Canada's anti H1N1 campaign that concludes spending 250 million saved three lives.

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorialopinion/article/847366--the-real-lessons-of-h1n1

The real lessons of H1N1
There was little or no flexibility to scale the pandemic plan down in case of a mild outbreak
Comment on this story »
Published On Fri Aug 13 2010

A Toronto Public Health Nurse loads syringes with H1N1 vaccine on Nov. 18, 2009, the first day the general public could get a flu shot. By that time there was virtually no benefit from the immunizations.

A Toronto Public Health Nurse loads syringes with H1N1 vaccine on Nov. 18, 2009, the first day the general public could get a flu shot. By that time there was virtually no benefit from the immunizations.
Carlos Osorio/Toronto Star
Ads by Google
Flu Symptoms & Treatment

Links and Resources to Flu
Diagnosis and Treatment
AmericanChemistry.com/Flu
Richard Schabas
and and Neil V. Rau

The World Health Organization has called off the H1N1 “pandemic.” It’s about time. There has been little to no H1N1 activity in Canada since November and anywhere on Earth since February, as demonstrated by WHO’s own global surveillance system.

So what actually happened? The simple answer is: not much out of the ordinary. Yes, hundreds of millions of people were infected and tens of thousands died, but worse happens almost every year from influenza. There were differences — higher rates than usual in younger people and much, much lower rates in older people. H1N1 was just the flu and not a virulent mutating superbug. On balance, the WHO’s own assessment (from August 2009) that H1N1 was “slightly worse than a normal influenza season” seems about right.

H1N1 was a pandemic without teeth because it was only half a pandemic. It turns out the virus wasn’t so novel after all. It was indeed a pandemic in “younger” people — those born after 1957 — but this is the age group that almost always shrugs off influenza. H1N1 was not a pandemic in older people probably because of immunity from previous exposure to a similar virus that circulated up until 1957. It is precisely these older people who are most vulnerable to influenza.

The supposed danger of H1N1 for healthy young people was grossly exaggerated. The median age of death from H1N1 in Canada was 53 — younger than usual from influenza but not exactly young — and the great majority had serious underlying health problems. Far more healthy young people were killed by automobiles than by H1N1 during the pandemic.

These patterns first emerged in Mexico in April 2009 and stayed consistent throughout. The picture was crystal clear by July 2009 following the winter outbreaks in Australia. Ironically, the more benign the evidence the more bellicose our rhetoric became.

Canada responded to H1N1 with an aggressive immunization program. A recent “study” of Ontario’s program, published in the for-profit journal Vaccine, claims that this was all worthwhile — preventing a million cases of disease and more than 50 lives. Editorial writers have been quick to endorse this study. Too quick.

The truth is more prosaic. The Vaccine study is flawed. It is based on a theoretical modelling and assumptions rather than on real data. Its conclusions are unreliable.

Our analysis, based on real Ontario disease and immunization data, paints a very different picture. The impact of immunization appears to have been tiny — reducing the outbreak by less than one per cent. Immunization prevented fewer than 20,000 cases of influenza illness and no more than three deaths. This is not nothing but it is a very small return for an outlay of more than $250 million.

Immunization against H1N1 had very little benefit because it came too late. Immunization didn’t even begin until after the late October peak of the fall outbreak. It is unclear whether this was anyone’s fault. Were decisions made last summer to delay the production of H1N1 vaccine to complete the production of seasonal influenza vaccine? If so, this was a serious error that needs to be acknowledged and learned from.

Immunization against H1N1 carried on for far too long. There was virtually no benefit at all from immunizations given after the middle of November because the outbreak was over by the time the vaccine had any effect — about 10 days after administration. Concerns about another winter wave of influenza (the “third wave”) were unjustified from the evidence and, as events have shown, they were wrong.

The global experience further documents the futility of Canada’s quixotic efforts. Countries that immunized less than Canada (the U.S., for example), much less than Canada (the U.K.) or not at all (Poland) had H1N1 experiences similar to ours.

So what lessons should we learn from all of this?

• Look before you leap. When a new infectious disease problem emerges, the premium must be on gathering and analyzing reliable information rather than triggering preconceived and inappropriate responses. The perception that these events are emergencies requiring instant response is overstated. A little thoughtful reflection will be invaluable.

• React to facts, not fears. Pandemic plans gave little or no flexibility to scale down measures for a mild (or ultra-mild) pandemic. Everything was geared to a 1918-style disaster — more of a phantom than a real threat in our modern world. Once activated, the plans took on lives of their own.

• Keep the politicians away. Public health officials can and should change their minds when new evidence emerges. They can be wrong without shame so long as they stay flexible and open-minded. Reversing fields is much more difficult for politicians. Our persistence with H1N1 immunization long after it had any value had much to do with political face-saving.

• Never exaggerate. Public health’s greatest asset is credibility. The unfortunate tendency to overstate the dangers of H1N1 will only mean that some people will doubt our word when we have something really important to say.

• Be your own toughest critic. Public health authorities — federal and provincial — have yet to produce any rigorous evidence-based analysis of the H1N1 experience. If we don’t identify our mistakes, how can we learn from them?

Dr. Richard Schabas is the Medical Officer of Health for the Hastings and Prince Edward Counties Health Unit and was Ontario’s Chief Medical Officer of Health from 1987-97. Dr. Neil Rau is an Infectious Diseases Specialist and Medical Microbiologist based in Oakville and a Lecturer in the Department of Medicine (Division of Infectious Diseases) at the University of Toronto.

Now maybe you choose to believe the higher numbers of "lives saved" published in a journal dedicated to the proposition that "vaccines are good". (And maybe you believe Obama's numbers for how many jobs he's "saved" too.) But still spending $250 million to save at most 50 lives? That's supposed to be a good ROI? That's $5 million per life saved. You could find 100 smokers, offer them $1 million each to quit smoking, have better results and save $150 million. And sure that was "20/20 hindsight", but I thought they were overhyping the swine flu from the beginning. Now I drive around and see drug stores selling "flu vaccine" all year long. :(
 
Both of my parents are doctors. And more than 90 percent of the time they opt out of getting vaccinated for most anything. They know there's a very slight chance that many of the vaccines can make you really sick even die. Being doctors, they are of course the most important people in the world. So um it just doesn't work out cuz there's just so many people depending on them. Oh noez. You on the other hand, well I don't know it probably won't kill you...lol
 
angelatc said:
For it to have any real meaning, wouldn't you need to compare the number of people who got the vaccine against the number of people who died, and compare the odds of dying against the number of people who got the flu? You also have to weight the deaths according to other criteria like age and health.
Click to expand...

and then, how do you convince these people that the people who WERE vaccinated were actually PREVENTED from anything?
 
WaltM said:
and then, how do you convince these people that the people who WERE vaccinated were actually PREVENTED from anything?
Click to expand...


I'm pretty sure that people who don't believe vaccines work won't believe anything. But in science, you vaccinate people and then expose them to the disease. If the rate of infection is lower in vaccinated populations than non-vaccinated populations, then you have a vaccine that prevents infection to some degree.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Occam's Banana
Thomas Massie exposes CDC as liars
Replies
2
Views
4K
Occam's Banana
Occam's Banana
Voluntarist
U.S. Treasury Bonds
Replies
8
Views
107
Voluntarist
Voluntarist
RJB
With wokeness dying, what will marxists use as their next dishonest tactic?
2
Replies
26
Views
2K
PAF
PAF
DamianTV
Musk Backs Ron Paul as Federal Reserve Chairman
Replies
3
Views
255
TheTexan
TheTexan
mtr1979
Ton of videos with FAFO on youtube
Replies
0
Views
78
mtr1979
mtr1979
Back
Top