On Capitalist Jesus. The Evil of Christianity.

[tonesforjonesbones]

I took world religion in college also..and it is taught that all the middle eastern religions come from zorasterism.

It is all a matter of faith. I am having a debate on another thread about The Serpent Seed Theory.

None of us were there. The book is thousands of years old. I have faith that God can keep His word intact.

Nobody can debunk faith...that's impossible. tones

 

[ClayTrainor]

Nobody can debunk faith...that's impossible. tones

That's like saying "Nobody can debunk my imagination"

 

[PaulaGem]

God's word contains His message in complete form for its use throughout the time allotted to by Him to His enemies. .

They do not negate the Scripture that tells us the "All Scripture is inspired of God..."


Bosso

Chapter and verse on these please -

 

[PaulaGem]

Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

KJV Psalms 119:11

The Word in Jewish thought is that which eminates from God - it may include inspired writings but it is not synonymous with the Bible, or the Torah for that matter.

According to my gnostic Christian beliefs, the Word is also gnosis, the seed of God's Truth that is within us all.

The Scriptures have been variously identified throughout history. They are not a static thing and the Bible is only the Scripture as identified by orthodox Christianity. If one does not accept the authority of orthodox Christianity one is not obligated to define the Word or Scripture as "THE BIBLE".

 

[Bossobass]

Chapter and verse on these please -

2 Timothy 3:16-17:

16 All Scripture is inspired of God and profitable for teaching, reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Bosso

 

[lucius]

It takes a number of dodgy leaps, contractions of quotes and generally making contradictions.

But hey. Yay Communism!

spot on--dialectic materialistic secular humanism....

 

[PaulaGem]

Bosso - I knew the Timothy one, but the first one needs a citation too.

I wanted to make sure that was your agrument. But are you SURE that's what the author of Timothy meant?

OK, I’m going to get into New Testament Greek for a moment, but I won’t get too technical (partly because my ability to do so has deteriorated over the eleven years since I finished my Theology degree, and partly because I don't want to put people off). The main point isn’t in the Greek, but comes afterwards, so don’t worry if it’s all … well, Greek to you. It'll make sense in a moment.

2 Timothy 3:16 says this:


πασα γραφη θεοπνευστος και ωφελιμος προς διδασκαλιαν, προς ελεγμον, προς επανορθωσιν, προς παιδειαν την εν δικαιοσυνη

Which, of course, means: “Every scripture is God-breathed and valuable for teaching, for refutation of error, for correction, for training in righteousness.”

Or does it?

An alternative translation is: “Every God-breathed scripture is also valuable for teaching, for refutation of error, for correction, for training in righteousness.”

Both translations are plausible, depending on the translation of one word: και, which can be translated as and or as also.

This leaves us with an interesting question. What did Paul, who wrote those words, actually regard as God-breathed scripture? Bear in mind that there was no New Testament at that point, and what we now know as the Old Testament was what Paul would have regarded as the whole of scripture. Do you think Paul takes it for granted that all the books of the Old Testament are God-breathed scripture, which the first translation would seem to indicate? Or is he referring to “every God-breathed scripture” as in the second translation because he thinks that some of the Old Testament scriptures are not God-breathed?

Also, what does it mean when we say that a scripture is “God-breathed”? Whichever translation you favour, the passage in question says that God-breathed scripture is valuable, or “useful”, for specific purposes: "for teaching, for refutation of error, for correction, for training in righteousness." Does that mean that it is less valuable or not at all valuable outside those specific purposes? And what would that mean for the way we use the Bible? In addition, what does this mean for the New Testament? As it did not yet exist at this point, and thus Paul was not referring to it, can we with any real authority refer to the New Testament as "God-breathed"?

Please leave a comment below with your thoughts on the matter. This is something I’m thinking through for myself at the moment, so I’d appreciate others’ input.

The first and most argument to your point is, if you were a Roman trying to bolster the authority of your "Bible" wouldn't it be a good idea to put a verse like that in?

The second is the above argument - what "scriptures" were being discussed? The Bible as you accept it didn't even exist at the time this passage was supposedly written.

Circular arguments are not very useful for convincing someone who does not accept the authority of the one drawing the circle.

 

[Theocrat]

Prerequisites

On a Justification for Armed revolution. On a Theology of Liberation. On the Revolutionary Jesus. An Anarchist perspective taken from the david icke forum

A Christian is allegedly a 'Christ-like' person who looks to the Jesus of history as a mentor and who claims to believe in his teachings as ‘the word of God.’




Consider that the historical Jesus appears to have been a person who fits the following description.

Tenets of the Historical Jesus.

1: Anti-Monetarism / Anti-Capitalism

He did not believe in any form of monetarism (do not carry money.... do not receive money, only food); he was a homeless (he had nowhere to lay his head), unemployed ( he called upon those with him to give up their professions), anti-propertyist who propagated not monetarism but proto-Communism (Fr. Communare: to share. Communism: to share all property in common)




And the question needs to raised as to how a person who carries no money could pay taxes; one of the alleged reasons for his arrest.




Do not worship mammon (Aramaic: Material possessions / clothing / money). Consider Solomon in all his glory?



2: No Swearing of Oaths.

..and of course without the swearing of oaths and contracts, Capitalism would cease to exist, and ‘I pledge allegiance to the flag…’ would be a violation of the words and edicts of Jesus, as would American Presidents swearing on stacks of Bibles, and Christians swearing oaths in courts or military oaths to fight the enemies of Capitalism.



3: He cried out against the rich and the religious hypocrites.

Woe to you brood of vipers… hypocrites…serpents.. in the name of the prophets you would have stoned the prophets, etc., etc.
Today it is the Christian state terrorists who have a long history of torturing and murdering Communists, particularly in the post war history of Latin America with their Palace revolutions and miltary coups.

4: He did not sell salvation for Capitalist coin.

He did not ask for tithes or offerings; he fed the poor and freely cared for the sick.

5: He told the rich to devote their wealth to the poor.



6: No Priesthood.

He was clearly ‘against' the priesthood of his age, and indeed against any form of priesthood.



7: Anti-Capitalist Martyrdom and Rebellion

This is the true meaning of 'take up your cross;' this was a common punishment for anti-Roman terrorists.

He was tortured and executed for his rebellion against the religious establishment, at their request, and allegedly as a political criminal; he did not support the corrupt government and the Solomonic priesthood (the Sadducees).

8: Non-Idolatry

He was not an idolater, he never referred to himself as the Creator; he may have invoked the Messianic prophecies but he clearly was not so arrogant as to consider himself to be the Creator; indeed he cried out to the Creator at times and referred constantly to the Creator in the Third person. Christians today worship him as an object of idolatry and propagate the Captialist anti-thesis of his teachings.

9: No Public Praying. No Praying in Temples.

He told his followers, 'Do not pray in public in the streets and the Temples.'



In other words, a true Christ-like person would never pray in public or in a church, nor would they construct any form of Temple.

10: The revolutionary militant (terrorist) Jesus: Armed Revolution.



Consider that at one point he asks his followers to sell their robes if they have to and buy swords. There are two interpretations of the answer, one being 'we have two swords,' and another being 'we have two swords each.' The Judean siccari (Swordsmen or 'terrorists’ to the Romans) commonly carried two swords, as opposed to the sword and shield of the Romans.

'Cohort' (L. a tenth of a Legion).

It clearly states that a cohort (L. a 10th of a legion) of Romans arrested Jesus. A legion was a minimum of 5000 men plus cavalry. Thus a minimum of 500 armed soldiers (plus the Temple guard, who were also armed) arrested Jesus in Gethsemane where an armed fight broke out; outnumbered his followers fled. This begs the question of why 500 armed soldiers would attempt to arrest a group of unarmed pacifists. It simply does not make sense.

Now compare this man to modern day Christians in general. Are they really Christ-like? Do they really believe in all of the above?

Indeed today it is only the Communists who represent his legacy; the Christian Capitalists represent all that he despised.

Two types of Christians; the hypnotists of the 'Jesus Business' and the hypnotised innocents.

I do not believe that the hypnotists of the Jesus business who claim to be 'experts' on the sayings of Jesus can possibly justify their business by the teachings of Jesus. I consider them to be universally corrupt and pied pipers; those who have vested interests in 'Capital' and earn a living from the Jesus business cannot be expected to agree with the tenets above. If they are offended; so too it must be stated that they ‘give offence’ to the students of the historical Jesus and to all liberation theologians and Christian Anarchists.

Consider also that the two major state terrorist countries in the world have Christian heads of state (Obama and Elizabeth Windsor) and that they are totally committed to militant world Capitalist revolution, the holocaust of all militant enemies and the economic enslavement of humanity.

The hypnotised innocents; the proletariat.

Clearly many Christians are simply hypnotised, and it is they who need to be woken up; that simply requires education.

On what absolute basis do you judge Christianity to be evil? Why should the standard you use to make such a judgment against Christianity be accepted universally in human experience? How do you justify the immaterial concept of "evil" when you reject immaterial entities in your worldview to begin with?

 

[LATruth]

On what absolute basis do you judge Christianity to be evil? Why should the standard you use to make such a judgment against Christianity be accepted universally in human experience? How do you justify the immaterial concept of "evil" when you reject immaterial entities in your worldview to begin with?

I don't necessarily find it evil. I didn't write the post you are quoting. I just posted it. I do think it is another system of control and indoctrination to keep us from attaining knowledge of our true self.

IMO you are this... subservient to a master.

While I am this... my own master.

 

[Dieseler]

//

 

[Bossobass]

I wanted to make sure that was your agrument. But are you SURE that's what the author of Timothy meant?



The first and most argument to your point is, if you were a Roman trying to bolster the authority of your "Bible" wouldn't it be a good idea to put a verse like that in?

The second is the above argument - what "scriptures" were being discussed? The Bible as you accept it didn't even exist at the time this passage was supposedly written.

Circular arguments are not very useful for convincing someone who does not accept the authority of the one drawing the circle.

My Greek interlinear translation is:

16 all scripture God-breathed and beneficial toward teaching, toward reproving, toward straightening up upon, toward discipline the in righteousness, 17 in order that fit may be the of the God man, toward every work good having been fitted out.

I don't think Paul thought any of the things you've decided to put into his head. I believe he was inspired to write the 14 letters, which became books of the Bible as soon as they were written.

God authored the Scriptures, not Paul or any other.

The same straw man argument could be made in the cases of the other human penman of the other 54 books of the Bible. The Scriptures weren't in the Bible when any of them penned their parts.

"What if a Roman decided to alter the Bible to his advantage?" This is not a unique stance, but again, to imagine that the Devil himself, let alone some dopey Roman wannabe, wanted to outwit God and actually thought he might succeed in this puny plan, it would simply have been laughable, and so is the very thought of it to me today.

Nothing personal, I'm just not searching for something that isn't there.

As far as citing the Scriptures that verify the first p[art of the statement I made, I'll tell you this... they're located between Genesis, 1:1 and Revelation 22:21.

Bosso

 

[Dieseler]

//

 

[BeFranklin]

Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

KJV Psalms 119:11

The Word in Jewish thought is that which eminates from God - it may include inspired writings but it is not synonymous with the Bible, or the Torah for that matter.

According to my gnostic Christian beliefs, the Word is also gnosis, the seed of God's Truth that is within us all.

The Scriptures have been variously identified throughout history. They are not a static thing and the Bible is only the Scripture as identified by orthodox Christianity. If one does not accept the authority of orthodox Christianity one is not obligated to define the Word or Scripture as "THE BIBLE".

You don't have gnostic beliefs either. You've said earlier that you're a wholesaler to occult bookstores and support wiccans (ie witches).

 

[BeFranklin]

You ought to burn your occult books

Book Burning advocated on a Libertarian thread... Outrageously hypocritical.

A) This isn't a Libertarian forum, and I'm not libertarian. Deciding to voluntary burn your own books is in the realm of free action. Its called freedom.

B) You've lost all crediability when it became clear you are not even a gnostic, but a new-ager and have a money interest in promoting it - something you kept hidden initially.

C) I posted the verses for your benefit. Read them more closely. According this passage and elsewhere, you ought to burn your own occult books not sell them to do evil.

Originally Posted by PaulaGem
I have been wholesaling to metaphysical bookstores for more than 20 years. Very few of them carry Satanist literature, but a few do. Most of thse stores will not carry an upside down cross or an upside down pentacle because they consider perversion of a religion to be Spiritually unsound.

Many of them carry books about a modern religion, wicca. Wiccan practices and their reliance on ritual bear more resemblance to Catholic practices than protestantism does. This is what you label "witchcraft".

These same bookstores carry books on Christianity, Judaism, Taoism, Buddhism and everything else under the sun.

Acts 19

13Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the LORD Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.

14And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.

15And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

16And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

17And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.

18And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds.

19Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.

20So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed.

 

[torchbearer]

Occultist brought baby Jesus his gifts.
His birth was predicted by astrologist. I guess they are in hell now for their occult beliefs.

This circus is great entertainment. Please tell everyone how it is... a universal god of only one tribe of men.

 

[BeFranklin]

The birth, life, ministry and death of Jesus ( or, Yeshua in Hebrew, or Jeshua in the Latinized version of the Hebrew, or Iesous in Greek) is foretold in detail through over 200 prophecies that predate Jesus by hundreds of years.

For those who think that some Roman wank (or any other man or group of men) foiled God's plan by somehow discarding or adding or emending the books of the Bible you need only to look to the Jews whose scribes meticulously copied the Scriptures as a profession and under the death penalty.

There are cases were the zealous nature of the scribes led them to make emendations, but the Masoretes, as the copyists that came centuries after Jesus were called, noted these emendations in the marginal notes, which came to be known as the Masorah.

Those verses have been read aloud every Sabbath in the temple over the generations. They were copied so meticulously that Jesus could be traced back to Adam and Eve through his mother's and his step father's genealogies, by Matthew and Luke.

The published fragments of Isaiah found among the Dead Sea Scrolls verify no deviation from a modern Bibles version of Isaiah.

Looking to apocryphal books such as the Gospel of Thomas, wherein, for example, Jesus is pretended to have performed miracles as a child, is chasing after the wind. To believe in an all powerful, all knowing Creator, and then to sell out that belief by thinking that men altered His handbook to some perverted version is absurd.

It would be better to believe nothing.

Bosso

This is a pretty good post.

Luke 11:21-24
21 When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: 22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils. 23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out. 25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished. 26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

 

[BeFranklin]

I did an exhaustive study and a reorientation of my own beliefs as a Christian several years ago. .

You can't have been a Christian several years ago. Elsewhere you say you've been selling to "metaphysical" (occult), bookstores for 20 years. That makes this all a long time ago, and you're pretty old - almost cackling age.

 

[BeFranklin]

On what absolute basis do you judge Christianity to be evil? Why should the standard you use to make such a judgment against Christianity be accepted universally in human experience? How do you justify the immaterial concept of "evil" when you reject immaterial entities in your worldview to begin with?

The originally article is from someone using the handle "lucifer". I went to the other board and checked it out, and posted the parts the user left out to disguise it.

I'd guess the basis to judge Christianity is that he's a satanist. :o

 

[LATruth]

The originally post is from a poster using the handle "lucifer". I went to the other board and checked it out, and posted the parts the user left out to disguise it.

I'd guess the basis to judge Christianity is that he's a satanist. :o

He also had Horus in him name, maybe his follows Horus.

The OP's name was luciferhorus. Want to flip a coin as to what he believed?

 

[BeFranklin]

The user poster name might have been that, but the actual name on the article, which you cut out, was lucifer.

Let's repeat that. You didn't need to edit out his user poster name. But you did edit out the name on the article as well as some other stuff that wouldn't make it fly.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63676

From original article (parts cut out here):

By Lucifer
Day of Judgement 2008

....

Shame on Christendom

Though the teachings of Jesus are clearly offensive to the Christian Capitalists, it is quite fair to judge the Christians by the teachings of the person whom they claim to represent. If they do not wish to be so judged, they should not claim to represent Jesus; it would be more honest if they sold their slavation for coin in the name of Adam Smith, Ayn Rand or some other Capitalist .

Jesus was a very offensive person; he ranted and raged at the injustices of his society and cried out 'Woe to you hypocrites,' to the proponents of organised religion and Capital. If he had been diplomatic and had not given offence, it is unlikely that the priesthood would have placed a reward for his arrest. The prophets have always been very extreme and outspoken people

Today in the name of Jesus, all manner of religious hypocrisy is propagated in his name, Capitalist Revolution, the selling of salvation for coin, the construction of elaborate Temples while billions suffer in dire poverty, and 900 million people, mostly women and children are close to starvation.

Shame.

Woe to the Capitalist hypnotists of Christianity, in the name of the prophets they would have persecuted and rejected the prophets.

Great and terrible and dreadful and wrathful shall be the Day of Judgement.

They wheat shall be separated from the chaff (the Capitalists and the hypocrites of religion) and the chaff cast into the fire.

The Final Holocaust shall be worse than any other that has come before.

Lucifer

For Anarchism. For Communism. Lux. For War, Revolution, anything good but strong.

For armed violent apocalyptic revolution in all the world on a day and an hour.

No mercy or quarter on they who deserve none.

And in reply to original post, about forum


No I reject Christ and all his works; Christ is merely the god of Capital, of hypocrisy, of state terrorism, of religion and of all that is evil in the world; it is through the Capitalist Christ that the masses in Christendom have been controlled, hypnotised and made submissive to all manner of tyranny with the promise of eternal heaven to those who are submissive to evil and to the hypnotists of religion. Since this is the David Icke forum I should point out that this is very much his position also, though I use different language.

With regards to the historical Jesus, it is Icke's (owner of this board) position that he never existed; that is not my position; I think it quite likely that he did, and if he did not, well there were so many Messianic Israelite revolutionaries like him and he represents an historical archtype of that era.