PaulConventionWV
Member
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2011
- Messages
- 16,041
Wouldn't that destroy the economy overnight?
OBAMA TO GRANT IMMUNITY TO YOUNG ILLEGALS
- Thread starter Reason
- Start date
Wouldn't that destroy the economy overnight?
asurfaholic
Member
- Joined
- May 30, 2011
- Messages
- 5,156
When you are a nation in fear of terrorists everywhere, it makes no sense to be cool with allowing millions of illegals to stay in the country. Obviously they are either not worried about terrorism, or they are inviting it to happen. Either way the govt is seriously making a mistake.
Personally, I am not worried about a bunch of mexicans. The problem is the welfare state and the ongoing drug war. Welfare state has a bunch of non immigrants stealing from me too, and the drug war empowers those who live under the radar. Honestly, most of the illegals I know are working for their money, and working hard. My helper (im an electrician) has over stayed his visa, but I don't want to see him gone. There is just no better help than him. Americans are lazy. These guys are willing to do the job - and if you ever watch them work, they are extremely efficient. They don't ask for much other than a paycheck.
On the other hand there are some black people who get govt money down the road from me. They have all day to try and do something productive, and they refuse. Grass is over grown, lots of parties and people sitting around. At night things get stolen. Those are the people I want gone. Latinos are generally respectful of authority and rules. They are here because there is lots of work that is available and americans can't or wont do the work.
Personally, I am not worried about a bunch of mexicans. The problem is the welfare state and the ongoing drug war. Welfare state has a bunch of non immigrants stealing from me too, and the drug war empowers those who live under the radar. Honestly, most of the illegals I know are working for their money, and working hard. My helper (im an electrician) has over stayed his visa, but I don't want to see him gone. There is just no better help than him. Americans are lazy. These guys are willing to do the job - and if you ever watch them work, they are extremely efficient. They don't ask for much other than a paycheck.
On the other hand there are some black people who get govt money down the road from me. They have all day to try and do something productive, and they refuse. Grass is over grown, lots of parties and people sitting around. At night things get stolen. Those are the people I want gone. Latinos are generally respectful of authority and rules. They are here because there is lots of work that is available and americans can't or wont do the work.
Lord Xar
Member
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2007
- Messages
- 7,803
We already know its unsustainable. The pink elephant in the room. But unlike you, I don't believe all of a sudden the politicians and people will wise up. And if they do, the system is already so over burdened the prospect of cutting is not even possible -thus our 16trillion on the books debt. This is just a smaller piece to a bigger puzzle that is a globalization ... nau
Your desires will just push the plan to fruition much faster ... my goal is that education can outpace the plan.
You think hordes of dependants with little knowledge of the constitution or its history will allow the spicket to run dry? "Seriously". Also, disallowing open borders is not a recipe for a bigger govt. The govt services needed to entertain open borders should tell u all u need go know.
Lord Xar
Member
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2007
- Messages
- 7,803
Co-sign
alucard13mmfmj
Member
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2012
- Messages
- 3,899
I left democrats because they want to give cheaters and people who did something illegal a "break" so they can become citizens or get "perks". Even if the they come here illegally, they should apply for immigration like everyone else and wait their turn. My grandparents and aunts/uncle/parents went through immigration the long, legal way. They came from Hong Kong/China and went through Angel Island in San Francisco.
I do agree there needs to be immigration reform... make it easier/cheaper/less beauracracy. It is better to document the illegals than to have them run around with assumed identities and etc etc.
A lot of them dont have insurance... When I was 10, my family car broke down and was on side of road. A car struck us from behind. Illegal driving the car gave us wrong address for contact information and didn't have insurance... or even a license. My mom has neck/back pains ever since *12 years ago*.
But yeah... why make laws like immigration laws when no one is gonna enforce it. Makes no sense. It is like one of those asinine laws that no one knows or bothers to enforce.
However... I rather have those illegals go to school and do something than to have nothing to do and join gangs and shoot up the place.
I do agree there needs to be immigration reform... make it easier/cheaper/less beauracracy. It is better to document the illegals than to have them run around with assumed identities and etc etc.
A lot of them dont have insurance... When I was 10, my family car broke down and was on side of road. A car struck us from behind. Illegal driving the car gave us wrong address for contact information and didn't have insurance... or even a license. My mom has neck/back pains ever since *12 years ago*.
But yeah... why make laws like immigration laws when no one is gonna enforce it. Makes no sense. It is like one of those asinine laws that no one knows or bothers to enforce.
However... I rather have those illegals go to school and do something than to have nothing to do and join gangs and shoot up the place.
John F Kennedy III
Member
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2011
- Messages
- 13,839
Our economy is on life support anyway. There are plenty of people here to fill the jobs that would be vacated. Plus that's millions that wouldn't be getting money from the welfare state anymore....we would possibly hurt for a few weeks, but it would be an overall plus for sure.
Noob
Member
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2008
- Messages
- 1,470
DamianTV
Member
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2007
- Messages
- 20,677
School is where they learn to join gangs and shoot up the place.
Hit and Runs arent exclusive to illegal immigrants. There is too much incentive for a person to commit a Hit and Run over taking resposibility for their actions. I think nearly every aspect of our lives in modern society are based on separating the individual from individual responsibility over anything.
The Incentives to Immigrate Illegally far outweigh the Incentives to Immigrate Legally. We all hear that Generation X has a snowballs chance in hell of ever collecting a dime from the busted ass Social(ist In)Security system that everyone is "required" to pay into. Do we not believe that ANY immigrants are also not well aware of this? How is that even an incentive to immigrate legally? Lets move to another country and pay out the ass into a foreign ponzi scheme that we wont get a damn thing out of if we follow the rules?
I could go off for endless hours on the Incentives of Immigrating Illegally, but Im going to summarize by saying that people respond to incentives.
Extending beyond the Incentives part of my argument, I cant blame any human for wanting to better themselves. But what we get is not the Creme of the Crop, we get the Cream of the CRAP. If the US had a Mass Exodus of Citizens going to Mexico and Canada (which we do), the ones leaving would be those who felt they could better their situation by leaving. Our best and brightest would leave. But it wouldnt account for everyone leaving, they would only make up a percentaage. What I continuously hear is that the immigrants that come here are real criminals that are looking for a means to evade their capture by moving to a country where there arent any arrest warrants for them, yet. These people can come here and find jobs more easily than the people that live here because they speak a different language, which somehow makes them more qualified than us, despite many being unable to perform basic math functions. And that isnt to bag on their schools, schools around the world are nothing more than Government Indoctrination Centers. Thus, there is a huge misunderstood difference between Education and Knowledge. So I wont fault them for not going to school. I will fault them for not knowing jack shit. However, that lack of knowledge can be overcome by teaching ones self. Learning the language of the land. Again, Learning is not the same as Education / Indoctrination. Once they come here, so many dont want to learn to speak english. And if they dont want to learn english, they probably dont want to learn how to do basic math skills. But maybe they do have some basic math. My problem is that they do not want to continue to Learn. Dont get me wrong, there are a lot of Americans that do the same thing. Just ask your grandparents about learning how to use a computer.
Many choose to self-segregate and displace us from our herritage by ignoring it and replacing it with their own. Demands are made that Govt Publications be made in their Native Language. Demands are made to be provided preferencial treatment over the local populus in most aspects of life. They demand to be rewarded by not becoming a part of the society to which they have moved. This is their new immigrated culture, to dissolve the old one. Like a cancer. This is their society. To destroy ours. But to look down on one individual, the one individual cant accomplish the things an entire population can do. We can welcome an individual with the intent of becoming a part of our culture, but we cant welcome the population of an entire country into our country by sacrificing all that we are and have been to oblivion. That is an invasion. An invasion embraced by the hive mind but not much by the individual. And our laws favor the hive mind over the individual.
History is rewritten to favor whoever is in power. Im sure that given enough time and enough distortion, they'd probably even go so far as to say that George Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, hell even Obama, Romney, and Ron Paul were all Hispanic. They purposefully forget our truths. They willfully alter the books to say that their own selfish values have more merit than things like a Limited Constitutional Govt and Honest Money System so that a few can put themselves on a pedestal above the rest.
And all of these things are accomplished by our politicians willingness to pander and cater to them so that our slave labor employers can hire cheaper labor.
Hit and Runs arent exclusive to illegal immigrants. There is too much incentive for a person to commit a Hit and Run over taking resposibility for their actions. I think nearly every aspect of our lives in modern society are based on separating the individual from individual responsibility over anything.
The Incentives to Immigrate Illegally far outweigh the Incentives to Immigrate Legally. We all hear that Generation X has a snowballs chance in hell of ever collecting a dime from the busted ass Social(ist In)Security system that everyone is "required" to pay into. Do we not believe that ANY immigrants are also not well aware of this? How is that even an incentive to immigrate legally? Lets move to another country and pay out the ass into a foreign ponzi scheme that we wont get a damn thing out of if we follow the rules?
I could go off for endless hours on the Incentives of Immigrating Illegally, but Im going to summarize by saying that people respond to incentives.
Extending beyond the Incentives part of my argument, I cant blame any human for wanting to better themselves. But what we get is not the Creme of the Crop, we get the Cream of the CRAP. If the US had a Mass Exodus of Citizens going to Mexico and Canada (which we do), the ones leaving would be those who felt they could better their situation by leaving. Our best and brightest would leave. But it wouldnt account for everyone leaving, they would only make up a percentaage. What I continuously hear is that the immigrants that come here are real criminals that are looking for a means to evade their capture by moving to a country where there arent any arrest warrants for them, yet. These people can come here and find jobs more easily than the people that live here because they speak a different language, which somehow makes them more qualified than us, despite many being unable to perform basic math functions. And that isnt to bag on their schools, schools around the world are nothing more than Government Indoctrination Centers. Thus, there is a huge misunderstood difference between Education and Knowledge. So I wont fault them for not going to school. I will fault them for not knowing jack shit. However, that lack of knowledge can be overcome by teaching ones self. Learning the language of the land. Again, Learning is not the same as Education / Indoctrination. Once they come here, so many dont want to learn to speak english. And if they dont want to learn english, they probably dont want to learn how to do basic math skills. But maybe they do have some basic math. My problem is that they do not want to continue to Learn. Dont get me wrong, there are a lot of Americans that do the same thing. Just ask your grandparents about learning how to use a computer.
Many choose to self-segregate and displace us from our herritage by ignoring it and replacing it with their own. Demands are made that Govt Publications be made in their Native Language. Demands are made to be provided preferencial treatment over the local populus in most aspects of life. They demand to be rewarded by not becoming a part of the society to which they have moved. This is their new immigrated culture, to dissolve the old one. Like a cancer. This is their society. To destroy ours. But to look down on one individual, the one individual cant accomplish the things an entire population can do. We can welcome an individual with the intent of becoming a part of our culture, but we cant welcome the population of an entire country into our country by sacrificing all that we are and have been to oblivion. That is an invasion. An invasion embraced by the hive mind but not much by the individual. And our laws favor the hive mind over the individual.
History is rewritten to favor whoever is in power. Im sure that given enough time and enough distortion, they'd probably even go so far as to say that George Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, hell even Obama, Romney, and Ron Paul were all Hispanic. They purposefully forget our truths. They willfully alter the books to say that their own selfish values have more merit than things like a Limited Constitutional Govt and Honest Money System so that a few can put themselves on a pedestal above the rest.
And all of these things are accomplished by our politicians willingness to pander and cater to them so that our slave labor employers can hire cheaper labor.
ProIndividual
Member
- Joined
- May 6, 2011
- Messages
- 1,775
Did you really just compare competition in the labor market (which keeps labor costs at market level instead of artificially inflated by state protectionism) to SLAVE LABOR? It's a willing contract. You have no right to a job. You have no right to tell me who I can hire, or for how much, as long as they willingly agree to it. You're advocating anti-free market labor market protectionism to keep labor costs artifically high. This DOES NOT keep standards of living higher...it increases unemployment just like artifical prices for labor due to minimum wage and union labor protectionism does.
The rest of your post wreaked of xenophobia. All your worries about bad incentives for immigration (there is no such thing as "illegal" immigrants, as they have a natural right to movement across arbitrary and imaginary lines drawn by states...unless you concede somehow we get our rights from states, not from Creation, or if you're an atheist, by virtue of our humanity) are reasons to end collectivist programs like welfare, SS, etc, not reasons to stand against a natural right like movement across borders in a free market for labor. And the old BS saying "can't have open borders in a welfare state" has been disproven with data for decades. We know that "illegal" immigrants contribute more to the economy than they take, and if they could pay taxes legally, they would contribute more on average per capita than natives.
This is all one big anti-free market argument you're making. This "culture war" argument you make is collectivism and nationalism...not individualism and patriotism.
Just because Obama does it doesn't mean it's logically wrong. Just because Ron Paul supports it doesn't make it logically right. This is one time Obama accidentally went to the free market side of things, and one time he accidentally got it right. Fuck him and Romney, but he got this right. Stop the nonsense, please. Educate yourself on free markets, stop listening to Ron and Hoppe on this...it's the one place they get it wrong, and it's provable with data.
Last edited:
ProIndividual
Member
- Joined
- May 6, 2011
- Messages
- 1,775
Then you're anti-free market and for protectionism, logically (closed borders are labor protectionism, or xenophobia in culture, or both). I believe in individual sovereignty. The nation is a collectivist entity. Nationalism is not patriotism, they are opposed concepts (nationalism means "love of the state", patriotism means "love of countrymen"). The nation is not synonymous with country (one means "state", one means "people"...hence "nation-state" not "country-state") Nationalism and statism are mental disorders.
Individual rights do not have borders ("inalienable" or "unalienable" literally mean "not subject to border or statute", hence the "un" and "alien", and the term "alien" when refering to immigrants). Individual rights of nonviolent individuals always trumps the powers and authorities of states (collectives). You're not libertarian or free market on this issue. You do not support individual rights on this issue.
The "good of the collective" has been the cause of, and excuse for, every atrocity in human history.
Breaking unjust laws like immigration quotas is Civil Disobedience, and I encourage it. It's also not in the Constitution to have quotas on immigration, and they are not the original intent.
I hope more Mexicans jump that border and break the tyrannical laws until our government supports free markets and justice in labor markets and individual rights, and makes it legal to cross as long as you pass a simple background check and medical exam (as the original intent of the Constitution desired).
Until then, why wait 131 years on average to come in legally?
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2010/0...ion-opening-borders-mexico-let-them-in_2.html
Would you wait 131 years on average to exercise your individual right to free movement? If you would, you'd be dead on average before exercising that right. Do you really think this law is enforcable with those wait times? Think about it rationally. The law is creating criminals, just like drug laws.
Most crossings are not done on private property, BTW, most are done on public property (aka thoroughfares). Hence, they are not aggression...but the law is aggression. It's anti-free market and wrong ethically, period.
Last edited:
alucard13mmfmj
Member
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2012
- Messages
- 3,899
it makes sense to let people into the country that could advance the country ^^..
showpan
Member
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2011
- Messages
- 1,385
Did you actually just state that more competition in an already artificially overburdened employer market was a good thing....lol...and higher wages mean lower living standards.....my god...you got your chinese hat on backwards and NO, you don't have the right to hire anyone you want.
I read a book today...oh boy
ProIndividual
Member
- Joined
- May 6, 2011
- Messages
- 1,775
And you can't make those valuations..they're impossible to make. The guy who started google came here as a child of two poor immigrants...read the article I linked where the graph came from. Hoppe is wrong (on this one issue). Go to Reason TV and watch their series on immigration in their archives.
Again, this "good of the collective" argument is trampling individual natural rights that do not get limited because of borders and do not exist because of the state and its borders.
Last edited:
ProIndividual
Member
- Joined
- May 6, 2011
- Messages
- 1,775
So you're against free markets in labor...good to know. The only artifical part of the labor market is minimum wage, union wages, and border labor protectionism. You can laugh, but this is the economic free market position that I take...you on the other hand make excuses for why you support protectionism. It isn't immigration that caused our economic woes, and since we KNOW immigration is CONDUSIVE to economic growth, you're shooting yourself in the foor so you can take the blame off what causes the problems...the state's laws (like the FED, for example).
Border hawks = anti-free market and anti-individual rights (at least on this issue)
And you say I don't have the right to hire anyone I want...so you don't believe in freedom of association, property rights, or contracts. It's that simple. I have property (a job), they have property (labor), and we can exchange those properties any way we see fit of our own free will, for any price we negotiate...any interventionism on your part to stop that free contractual relationship is tyranny. You're advocating trampling individual natural rights for the "good of the collective". It's logically collectivist.
So you support free trade EXCEPT in labor? You support free markets EXCEPT in labor? You support individual rights EXCEPT in contract, labor, and movement? You support freedom of association EXCEPT in labor? You support noninterventionism EXCEPT in labor, immigration, and contracts? You only support initiation of aggression and tyranny in immigration, contracts, etc?
Your position is horrid on this subject. Anyone should be allowed in that that the market dictates should come in, as long as they can pass a simple criminal background check and medical exam. I support them coming in "illegally" until the law is changed to reflect what it should be in a free market and free society.
Attack the causes of our economic woes, don't cut off your nose to spite your face on this issue, and simultaneously abaondon liberty to do it.
The border hawk position has no place in libertarianism. It's simply anti-liberty and pro-interventionism. It's anti-free trade. It's anti-contract. It's anti-individual rights. It's just totally opposed to everything we obstensibly stand for.
Last edited:
What the hell am I reading? It would require violence on a massive scale. It would be akin to the mass deportations in the Soviet Union! I thought this was a forum for people who love liberty, but we seem to have a majority in this thread advocating statist violence. By what right does the state stop me from inviting into my home who I want to, or hiring who I want to?
LibertyRevolution
Member
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2007
- Messages
- 1,590
Borders should be closed, this is a sovereign county.
If you came here illegally, then you are a criminal and should be deported.
If you come here illegally with intentions to have a child that is born in a America, they should deport you and your child.
If you hire an illegal then you should be fined, closed, your business license revoked, and denied application for a new business license.
Why do I feel this way?
I lost my job when my boss replaced my crew with illegals that spoke no English, then replaced me with someone that spoke English & Spanish!
I gave 15 years to that company and what do I get for it?
I get to watch as the years I spent training a crew got wasted as they and I were replaced by some criminal scum that cant even answer a question for a customer!
If you came here illegally, then you are a criminal and should be deported.
If you come here illegally with intentions to have a child that is born in a America, they should deport you and your child.
If you hire an illegal then you should be fined, closed, your business license revoked, and denied application for a new business license.
Why do I feel this way?
I lost my job when my boss replaced my crew with illegals that spoke no English, then replaced me with someone that spoke English & Spanish!
I gave 15 years to that company and what do I get for it?
I get to watch as the years I spent training a crew got wasted as they and I were replaced by some criminal scum that cant even answer a question for a customer!
Last edited:
Weston White
Member
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2007
- Messages
- 4,956
Barry Soetoro is just attempting to set himself up with retroactive citizenship, for when he is to ultimately be exposed, by real investigators such as Sheriff Arpaio and crew, Jerome Corsi, and now Lord Monckton.
showpan
Member
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2011
- Messages
- 1,385
Well here in America, there are things called laws. You don't have the right to hire anyone you want, not that you would hire anyone to play your online games for you.
The artificial employer labor market at present time has been created by NAFTA and immigration.....since you don't work, I wouldn't expect you to understand this.
Lord Xar
Member
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2007
- Messages
- 7,803
.
You are intellectually dishonest. You posted that image to make an emotional plea.
How many 40yr old PHD BIOENGEERING applicants are there clamoring to get into the United States compared to under-educated hispanics? You tell me? That graph is based on a % of the total of those who have gained citizenship. If you have 5million mexicans trying to get in, and you have only 5 40yr old PH'ds, are you suggesting that the weight of allowance should be equal when we allow say, 500k mexicans per ONE 40yr old phd applicant?
YOU WANT the brightest and those who have the most to offer in first. Would you invest your money in a low return, prone to loss investment OR one in which your returns yields great results?
Also, how long is the wait for a 30yr old Britain, H.S. diploma?
Also, how long is the wait for a 40yr old Mexican, PH.D., Bio-engineer?
Between 2008 - 2010, we had a total of : 3,280,569 immigrants to this country (legal) - (not counting the millions of illegal immigrants, mostly from mexico). Now, out of that 3mill+, 494,029 were from Mexico. About 15%. How many from the United Kingdom? Half of a percent ~ 42k. So, look at the numbers, not some half-assed graph that somebody with an agenda created to create a meme.
Shame on you.
Similar threads
