Northeast Ohio rocked by 11th earthquake linked to Youngstown injection wells

At first, the EPA said that fracking wasn't a big deal... after some people's water started smelling like lighter fluid, I guess it was.... We shouldn't be destabilizing rock and poisoning ground water. As Ron previously stated, in a private market, you can't pollute your neighbors property; however, with the government "ok", they have permission to do just that. This needs to end.

whoever invented the idea of 'mineral rights' anyways? probably was a government thing. If they can actually own the property and produce gas etc and not bother their neighbors then it would be fine to do in a ron paul world
 
I've never seen anybody sympathetic to both sides of an argument not only use strawmen, but insist and demand that we accept the strawmen after it has been rejected multiple times. What you are calling me a jerk for I was trying to be kind in the face of sheer ugliness on your part. I was biting my tongue and giving you the benefit of the doubt.

The ONLY people I have ever encountered in my life who demand that I eat their strawmen are shills.

But I stopped that thought process, bit my tongue, and chalked it up to a difference in perception.

So my giving you the benefit of the doubt makes me a jerk?

So why the hell should I bother to be nice if you are just going to shit on my face anyway?

Unreal... I wasn't making a strawman argument and I wasn't insisting anyone accept it. I took her comment differently than you did. Why is that flying over your head? Jeezus...

Newsflash, bub... It's entirely possible that people don't read things the way you mean them sometimes... It seemed likely to me that your comment about seeing both sides was directed at me. If it wasn't, I apologize, but again you could have clarified that when it was brought up.

Unfreakingbelievable....

Edit: And now I'm a shill? :lol:
 
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whoever invented the idea of 'mineral rights' anyways? probably was a government thing. If they can actually own the property and produce gas etc and not bother their neighbors then it would be fine to do in a ron paul world

I agree. You can't really stay beneath your own property with this process though. To make any kind of money off of it you end up doing a lot of slant drilling that ends up beneath a lot of other people's properties.

That's the part that's always bothered me. If you do crap under your own property I couldn't care less. If you do crap under my property then I'm gonna care.

Almost all of this process ends up under someone else's property.
 
I agree. You can't really stay beneath your own property with this process though. To make any kind of money off of it you end up doing a lot of slant drilling that ends up beneath a lot of other people's properties.

That's the part that's always bothered me. If you do crap under your own property I couldn't care less. If you do crap under my property then I'm gonna care.

Almost all of this process ends up under someone else's property.

and people willingly 'sell' these 'rights' to these production companies and then complain about the crap they do. The biggest thing the companies don't do even though they have the 'rights' is leave enough buffer area with their neighbors. This stuff comes up all the time in the news where some industrial company or mineral producer blows crap on their neighbor or dumps crap in the river. Just contain it on your property and account for the weather/wind/noise etc
 
Unreal... I wasn't making a strawman argument and I wasn't insisting anyone accept it. I took her comment differently than you did. Why is that flying over your head? Jeezus...

Newsflash, bub... It's entirely possible that people don't read things the way you mean them sometimes... It seemed likely to me that your comment about seeing both sides was directed at me. If it wasn't, I apologize, but again you could have clarified that when it was brought up.

Unfreakingbelievable....

Edit: And now I'm a shill? :lol:

Seriously, don't know what to tell you man. What you are seeing here is not what I am seeing here. I know of no 'kinder gentler' way of saying it.
 
That's what I have been wondering? I've heard that some realtors are making deals in Eastern Ohio where foreclosed properties' "mineral rights" are being sold off to some oil and gas company and the land is put on the market for cheap. I know in Southern Ohio, the water table is near non-existent because of the coal mining over the years. I can't imagine that fracking does not ever ever push hydrocarbon upwards into the water table, just like a earthquake can push up fluids upward to liquify the soil.
whoever invented the idea of 'mineral rights' anyways? probably was a government thing. If they can actually own the property and produce gas etc and not bother their neighbors then it would be fine to do in a ron paul world
 
and people willingly 'sell' these 'rights' to these production companies and then complain about the crap they do. The biggest thing the companies don't do even though they have the 'rights' is leave enough buffer area with their neighbors. This stuff comes up all the time in the news where some industrial company or mineral producer blows crap on their neighbor or dumps crap in the river. Just contain it on your property and account for the weather/wind/noise etc

Oh yeah, I am totally 100% in favor of the NAP as applied to property rights. Hydraulic Fracturing is just not that simple cut and dry though. You kinda have to be in a position to damage someone else's property just to do this as it was intended. And if there is any hydrocarbon infiltration, chances are it hits properties that were never part of a mineral rights deal to begin with. Depending on the bedrock formations, escaping methane could hit water tables 100 miles away, in an area completely unrelated to the drilling, fracturing, or trapping.
 
Seriously, don't know what to tell you man. What you are seeing here is not what I am seeing here. I know of no 'kinder gentler' way of saying it.

That's fine. I feel the same way. I really feel like we just spent a lot of time misinterpreting what we've (and Suzu) been saying. I sincerely took her comment to mean that she was saying that fracking liquids contaminate groundwater. I'm willing to grant that may be the incorrect interpretation, but I still don't think it's a wildly off-base interpretation. And I really don't see where insisted and demanded that everyone accept my interpretation, but nevertheless, again things can get lost in translation on the internet.

My sole intention was to clarify the process and to express concern for property rights. If drilling is found to be detrimental to groundwater on a consistent, widespread basis, then I would certainly oppose it.
 
I agree. You can't really stay beneath your own property with this process though. To make any kind of money off of it you end up doing a lot of slant drilling that ends up beneath a lot of other people's properties.

That's the part that's always bothered me. If you do crap under your own property I couldn't care less. If you do crap under my property then I'm gonna care.

Almost all of this process ends up under someone else's property.

My understanding of this process is that if the producers go horizontal under your property, they need your permission (a lease) to do it.

I'M WILLING TO ADMIT THAT THIS MAY NOT BE CORRECT. AGAIN, THIS IS MY UNDERSTANDING (ONLY) OF THIS PROCESS. I'M NOT INSISTING THAT THIS IS CORRECT.

;)
 
My understanding of this process is that if the producers go horizontal under your property, they need your permission (a lease) to do it.

I'M WILLING TO ADMIT THAT THIS MAY NOT BE CORRECT. AGAIN, THIS IS MY UNDERSTANDING (ONLY) OF THIS PROCESS. I'M NOT INSISTING THAT THIS IS CORRECT.

;)

I'm pretty sure that's correct with respect to mineral rights. The danger is that the contaminants that actually scare people...the various natural gasses...when released they rise. The can hit slabs of bedrock on the way up and get pushed off to one side eventually ending up impacting places miles and miles away that never signed over their mineral rights at all.

I think that's the most worrisome part. If you release a pocket of trapped methane 10,000 feet below the surface, it's anybody's guess where that methane is eventually going to end up.

Methane is completely odorless and flavorless, purity depending of course. If it manages to enter a house through the groundwater, it can potentially be very dangerous.

I don't believe that we will have such a problem in NC though, our bedrock is not very porous, we don't have methane deposits above the primary layer of bedrock... but at the same time that makes the "methane popping up 50 miles away" problem that much more of an issue.

The thing that makes me so deeply concerned here, is that self-sufficiency is a precious precious thing. Once an area becomes dependent on the county or the supermarket for water, it becomes a lot easier to make them into slaves. That gives me serious pause.

I understand, fracking for natural gas in NC would lead to tens of thousands of jobs. I hate the idea of government telling citizens what they can and can not do with their own property.

On the other side of the coin, it has the potential to impact people who are simply not a part of a mineral rights (or land-use lease) contract at all, who may have wanted nothing to do with it, and now (assuming the worst) can no longer use their groundwater well and can drink only at the pleasure of the county or municipal water system.

And I'm not even touching the fluoride or lithium in municipal water question.

I want to know that my grandkids 100 years from now are not going to be forced to use someone else's water to survive, but can draw their own water out of the ground. If they are forced with no option to rely on the county or city to provide water to survive, then they can easily be made into slaves.

So the question is by no means simple. Even free market principles can point to both yes and no. Say I agree with property A and B, but then end up spewing all over property C, that's an aggressive act, whether intentional or accidental.

My complaint with my colleagues on both sides of the aisle is everybody treats fracking like it's all so damn simple and obvious. It's not. Republicans pretend like there can not possibly be a problem, and anybody who has concerns is just stupid. Democrats pretend like every time we have ever deployed fracking in America it has destroyed 100% of the environment in it's general area, and anybody who doesn't agree is just stupid.

It's way, way more complex and articulated than that. There is a very real danger, but it's not remotely as pervasive as some people think. Fracking could work very well in some areas, and may be a very bad idea in other areas.

I've done what I needed to do on SB709 to push it forward while trying to ensure safety, but I dread the next veto override vote because both the members and the electorate on both sides are blatantly oversimplifying the issue, and that's never helpful.
 
That's fine. I feel the same way. I really feel like we just spent a lot of time misinterpreting what we've (and Suzu) been saying. I sincerely took her comment to mean that she was saying that fracking liquids contaminate groundwater. I'm willing to grant that may be the incorrect interpretation, but I still don't think it's a wildly off-base interpretation. And I really don't see where insisted and demanded that everyone accept my interpretation, but nevertheless, again things can get lost in translation on the internet.

My sole intention was to clarify the process and to express concern for property rights. If drilling is found to be detrimental to groundwater on a consistent, widespread basis, then I would certainly oppose it.

I am sure we both misunderstood each other on several occasions, and were both misunderstood by the other likewise. I apologize for anything that came off "jerkish" and I certainly had no intent to aggress argumentatively.
 
OK, guess I'll jump in here. I am living right in the middle of the Marcellus drilling in Southwesten PA. I can see a well being drilled from my window. I watched a well beging finished from my hill top a week ago. I am not in these drilling units and drilling will not take place under my property. I am close enough to the one so that before drilling took place an independant company came and took samples of my water for quality and quantity. I have a well and many springs that I have concerns about. From my layman investigations I am not that concerned about my water. The first post by "A Son of Liberity" was a very fair and acccurate view of the "Horizontial Drilling Process" which includes "Fracking" (for anyone interested here is an animation of the process http://www.oerb.com/Default.aspx?tabid=242 )
I can tell you honestly that I am more concerned with coal minning that I ever am about drilling for natual gas. Gas migration into drinking water occurs naturally and methane gasses have migrated by coal minning wich releases "coal bed methane". Most coal minning occurs hundreds of feet below the surface and has caused many landowners to loose their water or have it contaminated. In my opinion natural gas drilling is much safe to my land and water than coal minning. BTW the animation shows the perf gun and the fracturing process. Maybe this will clear up the "BLASTING" discussion here.

LOL at my sig. here
 
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Never heard of injection wells before. Seems like there could be lots of unintended consequences, earthquakes being one of course. From what I have read it looks like this has been going on for sometime. I just don't get how it is o.k. to get rid of waste by pumping it thousands of feet down into the Earth, I'm shocked really. I'm not convinced that our Grandchildren or maybe their Grandchildren will look back and say injection wells were a good idea. Of course all the people responsible will be long since gone, so they don't have to worry about any unintended consequences.

It is called "fracking" Water and certain chemicals, some deadly, are forced downward under great pressure, then horizontally to break up the rock containing gas.

IMHO, in additon to destroying some underground water aquifers, this may be the main cause of so many earthquakes occurring around Arkansas and other places. If you just think about it, the natural consequences would seem to be obvious, but that is just me.

It is an important topic to research. Fracking has been around since Haliburton, I think it was, got into it decades ago, but today's version seems fraught with unintended dangers to people and property and water. It is the big thing now, but it needs excellent oversight to keep it responsible because of the large geographic areas involved. This is one area in which oversight is a must. People in Pennsylvania have had great difficulty when trying to seek legal satisfaction after having had their water destroyed by the fracking process. Courts may be too corrupt and slow at this point in time to protect the public. So what is the answer? I do not want it to come from DC, but I do hope for reasonable oversight locally.

Big energy, big money, big potential consequences. We need energy, but I do want it to be safely obtained.
 
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Who knows this may save them from getting a large earthqauke. Earthqaukes are caused by the built up stress and this seems to relieve some of that.. They are greasing the plates.........
 
4.0 isn't that big for a quake- unless you are really close and in a static position- say sitting in a chair or on a couch- you might not even notice it. Just a little shaking. Kinda like a large truck driving by in front of your house.

True enough, but what if it later becomes a giant sinkhole after having all the gases extracted from the "fracked" rock below? Fracking involves great pressure and liquid. Think about it.

I you had a football buried a few feet below the ground, and something punctured it, what would happen to the earth above it?

Ever been to a cemetery and seen how graves have become sunken?

What about soil liquefaction?

In soil mechanics the term "liquefied" was first used by Hazen[1] in reference to the 1918 failure of the Calaveras Dam in California. He described the mechanism of flow liquefaction of the embankment dam as follows:

If the pressure of the water in the pores is great enough to carry all the load, it will have the effect of holding the particles apart and of producing a condition that is practically equivalent to that of quicksand… the initial movement of some part of the material might result in accumulating pressure, first on one point, and then on another, successively, as the early points of concentration were liquefied.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_liquefaction
 
Now as to the "drilling under others properity" discussion. It is against the law to drill under others properity and is taken seriously by landowners, the State and drilling companies. A horizontial leg may go for thousands of feet under numerous surface owners. When this is done a lease is obtained from every landowner impacted by the drilling. A "unit" is formed to include all the impacted landowners. Units usually consistive of 640 or 1280 acres. These land owners share in their portion of ownership from the whole pool.

Natural gas migration form shale is different that say oil. The shale formations are so tight that the gas doesn't escape naturally hence the reason of the fracking. Also most of this is thousands of feet (like 5 to 10,000) below the surface. Wells are cased in steel and concrete. In my opinion contamination is low risk. I'll take natural gas drilling every single time over coal minning.
 
OK, guess I'll jump in here. I am living right in the middle of the Marcellus drilling in Southwesten PA. I can see a well being drilled from my window. I watched a well beging finished from my hill top a week ago. I am not in these drilling units and drilling will not take place under my property. I am close enough to the one so that before drilling took place an independant company came and took samples of my water for quality and quantity. I have a well and many springs that I have concerns about. From my layman investigations I am not that concerned about my water. The first post by "A Son of Liberity" was a very fair and acccurate view of the "Horizontial Drilling Process" which includes "Fracking" (for anyone interested here is an animation of the process http://www.oerb.com/Default.aspx?tabid=242 )
I can tell you honestly that I am more concerned with coal minning that I ever am about drilling for natual gas. Gas migration into drinking water occurs naturally and methane gasses have migrated by coal minning wich releases "coal bed methane". Most coal minning occurs hundreds of feet below the surface and has caused many landowners to loose their water or have it contaminated. In my opinion natural gas drilling is much safe to my land and water than coal minning. BTW the animation shows the perf gun and the fracturing process. Maybe this will clear up the "BLASTING" discussion here.

LOL at my sig. here

Edit: We're fairly close, geographically.

Thanks. I think it's important to point out the relative impact of the two processes, too. Drilling makes a very limited impact and subsurface disturbance, especially relative to coal mining and the surface areas of the layers of rock involved. It's also worth noting that areas which are prime for natural gas drilling are also frequently areas with much methane gas present.

The Marcellus shale sits roughly 10,000 feet below the surface (almost two miles). Typically, groundwater is found less than 1,000 feet below the surface. Gases certainly can migrate, but any gases within the shales being fracked are likely to follow the path of least resistance, which would be back up the well itself. That is NOT to say that there is no chance that gases couldn't migrate through rock back to water table elevations, or that the process of drilling through the many layers could not free some gases, but again, we're still mining coal which has a far greater area of disturbance, etc.

It's simply my sincere hope that people understand this process before they villify it.
 
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Now as to the "drilling under others properity" discussion. It is against the law to drill under others properity and is taken seriously by landowners, the State and drilling companies. A horizontial leg may go for thousands of feet under numerous surface owners. When this is done a lease is obtained from every landowner impacted by the drilling. A "unit" is formed to include all the impacted landowners. Units usually consistive of 640 or 1280 acres. These land owners share in their portion of ownership from the whole pool.

That's my understanding as well. Also, royalties are due to property owners who have gas extracted from under their property (while not necessarily being drilled under).

Natural gas migration form shale is different that say oil. The shale formations are so tight that the gas doesn't escape naturally hence the reason of the fracking. Also most of this is thousands of feet (like 5 to 10,000) below the surface. Wells are cased in steel and concrete. In my opinion contamination is low risk. I'll take natural gas drilling every single time over coal minning.

Agreed, regarding drilling over mining. And I think vigilant enforcement of property rights, as well as vigorous prosecution of violators can and does make mining a much better process than it has been over the years.
 
Update from:http://www.wkbn.com/content/news/co...ar-Injection-Well/-Zjj8FavpE-jONyDBtQ6ug.cspx

"In addition to cracks in drywall in Girard, bricks fell from a chimney in McDonald. Posters to the station's Facebook pages have submitted many pictures of cracked cement block walls, cracks in drywall, and reported slanting floors. No injuries have been reported."

Wonder how many people will get compensated for this? Many of these houses are old here and I could see insurance adjusters writing the majority off as unprovable even if they were caused by the earthquakes and the individual left to repair at their own cost damage caused through no fault of their own.
 
Update from:http://www.wkbn.com/content/news/co...ar-Injection-Well/-Zjj8FavpE-jONyDBtQ6ug.cspx

"In addition to cracks in drywall in Girard, bricks fell from a chimney in McDonald. Posters to the station's Facebook pages have submitted many pictures of cracked cement block walls, cracks in drywall, and reported slanting floors. No injuries have been reported."

Wonder how many people will get compensated for this? Many of these houses are old here and I could see insurance adjusters writing the majority off as unprovable even if they were caused by the earthquakes and the individual left to repair at their own cost damage caused through no fault of their own.

I bookmarked that report. I'd like to follow what the outcome is. How much drilling is going on in that area? Also was curious if the "brine" injection was fracking fluid or if it was storage/disposal of fracking fluid.
 
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