North Dakota to vote on ending property tax

[Chester Copperpot]

so how did the vote go

 

[Keith and stuff]

so how did the vote go

The votes are still being counted.
http://results.sos.nd.gov/resultsSW.aspx?text=BQ&type=SW&map=CTY

Precincts Reporting
265 of 426
Yes 22%
No 78%

 

[jclay2]

Eliminating the property tax is so great because it actually enables you to own and control assets that are rightfully yours. Something bought and paid in full should not have a never ending annual liability to the government just because it exists. Also, this will force the government to tax in more direct ways which should help wake up the populace to just how bad they are screwed.

 

[redbluepill]

This thread has made me lose some serious hope...

People are actually arguing FOR property tax?!?

The people you're referring to argue for a land value tax.

Libertarian thinker Albert Jay Nock believed you could not have a just society without the LVT. David Nolan, one of the founders of the Libertarian Party was an LVT supporter. Milton Friedman also favored the LVT over any other tax, going as far as to say we should tax improvements as little as possible and land as much as possible.

For what reason!?

Many reasons. Read up.

http://www.taxjustice.net/cms/upload/pdf/gen_ben_f_land_tax.pdf
http://schalkenbach.org/henry-george/the-single-tax/
http://www.savingcommunities.org/issues/taxes/landvalue/

WE SHOULDN'T PAY ANYTHING!

Tell that to your landlord, who is by definition a government.

http://libertythinkers.com/educatio...rnment-the-libertarian-basis-for-land-rights/

 

[redbluepill]

Eliminating the property tax is so great because it actually enables you to own and control assets that are rightfully yours.

It encourages speculation and keeping land idle.

 

[Gumba of Liberty]

The people you're referring to argue for a land value tax.

Libertarian thinker Albert Jay Nock believed you could not have a just society without the LVT. David Nolan, one of the founders of the Libertarian Party was an LVT supporter. Milton Friedman also favored the LVT over any other tax, going as far as to say we should tax improvements as little as possible and land as much as possible.




Many reasons. Read up.

http://www.taxjustice.net/cms/upload/pdf/gen_ben_f_land_tax.pdf
http://schalkenbach.org/henry-george/the-single-tax/
http://www.savingcommunities.org/issues/taxes/landvalue/




Tell that to your landlord, who is by definition a government.

http://libertythinkers.com/educatio...rnment-the-libertarian-basis-for-land-rights/

You believe that you cannot have a just society without taxes? Define just society. Regardless of your definition, I want to live in a free society. The only tax I would tolerate in a free society is a tariff or taxation along the boarder of the State. Any other tax is unacceptable for a free people.

 

[Gumba of Liberty]

It encourages speculation and keeping land idle.

Define land ownership. I, as the founders did, believe that if you do not use your land then you do not own it, it's called homesteading.

 

[redbluepill]

You believe that you cannot have a just society without taxes?

Have you read anything I wrote? I believe in abolishing all taxes save the LVT and user fees. Other public services can be paid for through user fees (in fact, I consider the LVT a user fee).

Define just society. Regardless of your definition, I want to live in a free society.

'Just society' and 'free society' are one-in-the-same. You cannot have a free society when a small percent of the population owns the vast majority of useable land.

The only tax I would tolerate in a free society is a tariff or taxation along the boarder of the State. Any other tax is unacceptable for a free people.

So you believe in protectionism? How unlibertarian. ;-)

 

[redbluepill]

Define land ownership. I, as the founders did, believe that if you do not use your land then you do not own it, it's called homesteading.

Tell that to 99% of the Von Miseans who believe absentee landowning is perfecting okay.

But this begs the question, how much labor is required to own land and how much of the land can be claimed?

 

[Zippyjuan]

LVT isn't really a tax, it is a rental fee. In this case, you don't own land- the government does. Which is also true of property taxes. You can get rid of the mortgage portion of ownership costs but not the tax (rental) part.

 

[Gumba of Liberty]

Have you read anything I wrote? I believe in abolishing all taxes save the LVT and user fees. Other public services can be paid for through user fees (in fact, I consider the LVT a user fee).


No I have not.

'Just society' and 'free society' are one-in-the-same. You cannot have a free society when a small percent of the population owns the vast majority of useable land.

I agree.


So you believe in protectionism? How unlibertarian. ;-)

Protectionism is an economic idea that suggests that tariffs increase economic production, I disagree entirely. But If I must accept one tax I will accept a tax on products that come from outside U.S. boarders. A LVT sounds much more authoritarian and economically depressing than a small tariff in my opinion.

 

[redbluepill]

LVT isn't really a tax, it is a rental fee.

This is true.

In this case, you don't own land- the government does.

This is not true. Government has no say in how one uses the land. It only collects the revenue for what rightfully belongs to the community (which created the land value in the first place).

Which is also true of property taxes. You can get rid of the mortgage portion of ownership costs but not the tax (rental) part.

Difference between today's property taxes and the LVT:

Property tax = Land value+value of improvements you made on the land

LVT = Land value - value of improvements you made on the land

 

[redbluepill]

Protectionism is an economic idea that suggests that tariffs increase economic production, I disagree entirely. But If I must accept one tax I will accept a tax on products that come from outside U.S. boarders. A LVT sounds much more authoritarian and economically depressing than a small tariff in my opinion.

So you'd rather tax productive activity (trading goods and services) over unproductive activity (absentee landlordism and speculation)?

 

[Roy L]

Eliminating the property tax is so great because it actually enables you to own and control assets that are rightfully yours.

No, it enables you to remove others' rights to liberty, with government's help, and not make any compensation.

Something bought and paid in full

It was never bought and paid in full, stop lying. You knew when you bought it that you would have to pay the property taxes in perpetuity to keep it, stop lying. You know that the title was issued by government with no undertaking whatever that the taxes would never be increased, stop lying. You bought a limited privilege of violating others' rights, not a product of labor that could rightly be owned in the first place, stop lying.

should not have a never ending annual liability to the government just because it exists.

The liability is not just because the land exists, stop lying, but because it exists without any help from the landowner or any previous landowner, and you claim a never-ending privilege of depriving others of it. Why would you imagine you could get a never-ending -- indeed ever-increasing -- flow of benefits, and not pay anything for them? Is it because you are infinitely greedy for unearned wealth, and want government to give you power to steal the fruits of others' labor and contribute nothing in return??

How could an ongoing, never-ending claim against the liberty of everyone else in the community ever be bought and paid for in full?

Also, this will force the government to tax in more direct ways which should help wake up the populace to just how bad they are screwed.

Oh, the populace are being royally screwed, all right. They are being bent over a cactus and {^(|<ed up the @$$ with a 2x4. They are forced to pay taxes to government to fund desired services and infrastructure, and must then pay greedy, idle, parasitic landowners full market value for access to the services and infrastructure their taxes just paid for, so that the landowners can pocket one of those payments in return for contributing exactly nothing.

That is the exact, literal, indisputable truth. You just have to refuse to know it, because you have already realized that it proves your beliefs are false and evil.

 

[redbluepill]

This video sums up how the LVT would create a JUST and FREE society:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itO7OoKtNUc

 

[Gumba of Liberty]

Tell that to 99% of the Von Miseans who believe absentee landowning is perfecting okay.

But this begs the question, how much labor is required to own land and how much of the land can be claimed?

I do not care what the majority of Misean's' or Marxist's believe because the majority is usually wrong, especially when used as a statistic. If you use your labor to change the appearance of earthly land then you own it. Usually a fence works. If not, a jury of your peers.

 

[Roy L]

So you'd rather tax productive activity (trading goods and services) over unproductive activity (absentee landlordism and speculation)?

Yes, Gumba -- and Steven, and Helmuth, and Travylr, and all the rest -- wants to steal from producers and give the money to idle, greedy, parasitic landowners in return for exactly nothing. And if we object to this blatant wealth redistribution scam, they accuse us of the very sin of which they are themselves most guilty: rationalizing theft. That is very much the point.

 

[Zippyjuan]

This is true.



This is not true. Government has no say in how one uses the land. It only collects the revenue for what rightfully belongs to the community (which created the land value in the first place).



Difference between today's property taxes and the LVT:

Property tax = Land value+value of improvements you made on the land

LVT = Land value - value of improvements you made on the land

If I own the land and not the government then nothing "rightfully belongs to the community". It is mine. If the government ("community") owns it, then you can make that claim. The community did not create the land and any improvements to it will be done by me so they have no "value they created" on my land. Unless they want to pay my costs for putting a home or business on the land. Then they are creating value on my land.

If the property belongs to the community and they get credit for "adding value" to my land- then perhaps they should be the ones paying any taxes on that "added value".

If I improve my land and you wish to tax me on improvements I make, can you justify taxing me over and over and over forever into the future for any improvements I make this year? Say I add a house worth $100,000. Or should any improvements simply be taxed when the improvement is made and not again every following year? If I made no improvements to my land this year, I should owe zero in improvement taxes (doing nothing did not add any value to the land- it is still as it was last year). If you want to encourge good use of the land and to have people improve it this is not the way to do it. It discourages improvements.

This is sounding more like a co-op where everybody shares everything.

 

[Gumba of Liberty]

So you'd rather tax productive activity (trading goods and services) over unproductive activity (absentee landlordism and speculation)?

I would much rather tax optional activity and reenact homesteading than tax mandatory activity and allow for the unlawful gluttony of land ownership.

 

[Roy L]

I do not care what the majority of Misean's' or Marxist's believe because the majority is usually wrong, especially when used as a statistic.

But they are right more often than you.

If you use your labor to change the appearance of earthly land then you own it.

No, of course you don't. What a ridiculous, fatuous claim. How could merely defacing a piece of land remove others' rights to liberty? How about this for a better claim: if I use my labor to refute a stupid lie you have told, I own you.

How does it feel to be my property, slave?

Usually a fence works.

Only if backed by government force, as the range wars of the Old West proved.

If not, a jury of your peers.

Hehe. "Peers" meaning "fellow land thieves." Nice.