Nigel Farage - Britain's Ron Paul

[pen_thief]

New Hampshire it is

 

[bluesc]

New Hampshire it is

Be sure to sponsor me to move there too.

 

[Paul Or Nothing II]

GRRR!

Nigel Farage is NOTHING like Ron Paul. I have spoken with Nigel, he is no libertarian.

Nigel Farage opposes the gold standard, supports fractional reserve banking, condones subsidies, believes in a burkha ban, against immigration and so on.

He is nothing like Ron Paul. Doug Carswell and Dan Hannan are the closest we have to Ron Paul, but even then, they are still some way off.

I'm 17 so can't vote yet, not until June.

I'll probably either hold my nose and vote UKIP (unless the candidate is too nationalistic, like the UKIP's current mayoral candidate, in which case it's spoilt ballot for me). If there's a monster raving loony party candidate, I'll give my vote for them.

I think media & public education has quite deliberately blurred the difference between "nationalism" & "zingoism"

Ron Paul IS a nationalist, which IS a good thing but of couse, he's not a "zingoist", he's left that to neo-conservatives

http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/

A nation without borders is no nation at all.

Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

* No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

* Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

* End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.

* Protect Lawful Immigrants – As President, Ron Paul will encourage legal immigration by streamlining the entry process without rewarding lawbreakers.

And nationalism is EXACTLY what Europe needs MORE OF right now if the EU is to die otherwise they'll just end up as United States of Europe just as the States in United States were earlier considered separate nations but after the Civil War, their sovereignty was taken away & now, even talking about secession is a taboo subject

Further, liberty is NOT the default ideology for humans, the default ideology is "free lunch" & socialism, which invariably leads to tyranny, & that's why we see the world the way it is so if there's a free-society then it MUST limit immigration because the majority in any country will be too stupid understand liberty & that's where culture comes in, if a free society can only sustain itself through a liberty-culture & not dilute it by allowing in truckloads of people from other countries who don't share the views about liberty; that's how United States went from "land of the free" to now socialist-corporation-soon-to-be-totalitarian State, because we didn't heed the wise words of Founders

I have no intention to invite immigrants, even if there are no restrictive acts against it. I am opposed to it altogether.
- George Washington

I do not wish that any man should acquire the privilege of citizenship, but such as would be a real addition to the wealth or strength of the United States.
- James Madison

When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe .
- Thomas Jefferson

But are there no inconveniences to be thrown into the scale against the advantage expected from a multiplication of numbers by the importation of foreigners? It is for the happiness of those united in society to harmonize as much as possible in matters which they must of necessity: transact together. Civil government being the sale object of forming societies, its administration must be conducted by common consent. Every species of government has its specific principles. Ours perhaps are more peculiar than those of any other in the universe. It is a composition of the freest principles of the English constitution, with others derived from natural right and natural reason. To these nothing can be more opposed than the maxims of absolute monarchies. Yet from such we are to expect the greatest number of emigrants. They will bring with them the principles of the governments they leave, imbibed in their early youth; or, if able to throw them off, it will be in exchange for an unbounded licentiousness, passing, as is usual, from one extreme to another. It would be a miracle were they to stop precisely at the point of temperate liberty. These principles, with their language, they will transmit to their children.
- Thomas Jefferson

UKIP is on 5% to 8% nationally at the moment and has a fighting chance of beating the Tories in the 2014 European Elections.

It's going to be tough, but we're in it for the long haul.

I agree, UKIP seems like a party on the up, it just needs to be reformed a little bit more by more liberty-minded flooding into it

Also, in my experience, so far as libertarianism in Europe goes, France is one of the worst, Britain not too far behind, Spain is improving somewhat, Italy is okay, Germany is somewhat decent (FDP), and Poland (eastern Europe in general actually) quite good.

I looked up FDP & looked great UNTIL I saw :

"The FDP wants a politically-integrated EU with a Common Foreign and Security Policy,"

Again, national sovereignty MUST come first otherwise all else is futile, without national sovereignty, one world government is inevitable, that's the whole point globalists to "merge" the whole world, nationally, culturally, racially, politically, philosophically & so on

I'm all in favour of taking over a small country with Paulbots! Liechtenstein looks like the ideal place - it's quite "libertarian" to begin with and has low population!

Isnt' Liechtenstein umm a little TOO SMALL, I mean it's so small that the Paulbots allover the world wouldn't fit into it & apart from the fact it's difficult to spell, it would be like a libertarian ant in the middle of totalitarian elephants; it's current population seems to be under 40000, yes 40000

How about Costa Rica? According to Wiki, its the country with largest libertarian presence in their parliament among all the nations in the WORLD! (~10% = 6 seats out of 57 ) Population count 4.3 million & density is much lower than the puny Liechtenstein

Could we "buy" citizenships en masse if possible by putting money together & then there's the libertarian billionaire who's already given 2.6 million to Ron Paul's superpacs & has given 1.25 million to "seasteading" research, he might like to contribute some if he gets to live in a country ripe with libertarians rather than United Socialist States of America

Seems like an enticing prospect, sooner or later, we're going to have to do something like this I think, there are too many idiots in the world & we mayn't be able to change all of their minds to liberty

 

[Paul Fan]

I'm working on setting up a libertarian group in the UK. We have a loooong way to go if we have to hold our noses and support Messrs Hannan and Farage as the best of the bad bunch.

I wouldn't be able to bring myself to vote for UKIP, it's too much of a compromise. They support fiat money FFS!

Are you starting a new political party? Or what form will your group take?

 

[JohnM]

A new political party? Most of us are pretty bruised by what happened to the old one - the Libertarian Party UK.

This thread is pretty recent, and gives a fair indication of the state of organised libertarianism in Britain. The comments and discussion are more significant than the original post.

The rest of the Libertarian Home site is also useful for those who want to get a picture of the current state of play in the UK.

 

[Crotale]

Are you starting a new political party? Or what form will your group take?

I'm working on setting up a libertarian community online, completely decentralised. Basically a massive pool of resources and a way for UK libertarians to come together and share ideas. It's a long way off though, I currently don't have the time nor money. Even if I had the money I don't have the time yet. Once I've made a blueprint and done a complete feasibility check, consulted other libertarians I know and got some people on board to help, only then am I gonna start raising some funds to get it started.

To be completely honest, it's a not certain I'd be able to get this off the ground anyway. It's just worth a shot I suppose.

 

[Crotale]

I think media & public education has quite deliberately blurred the difference between "nationalism" & "zingoism"

Ron Paul IS a nationalist, which IS a good thing but of couse, he's not a "zingoist", he's left that to neo-conservatives

http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/

A nation without borders is no nation at all.

Well nations are great big fictions. Countries are merely geographical land masses. I'm personally an anarcho-capitalist. But yeah, minarchism is fine in the meantime so long as the ONLY role of government is to uphold the right to life, liberty and property. Nothing more.

 

[Ray Finch]

Firstly, let me declare an interest. I work for Nigel Farage. However, this perspective is my own, as a member of UKIP and someone who knows Nigel.

Now, for the avoidance of doubt, I support Dr. Paul.

As far as there can be a mirroring of personalities in different nations then Nigel is reflective of Ron Paul.

I speak to Nigel on a daily basis and see him most days. He is a great admirer of him. We talk about him frequently.

Nigel believes in a libertarian perspective, within British historical traditions, as Dr. Paul does within US traditions.

The UK and USA are different branches from the same root. We have many things in common and the belief in individual liberty is paramount amongst those beliefs.

Daniel Hannan is a close friend of Nigels and someone many people in the UK admire. However he still believes our Conservative Party can change from a party of big state to a small state party. As you see over there with the Republicans, once the horns of power are gripped by the troughers it is well nigh impossible to prise their greasy paws away.

Nigel believes, as do I, that the Conservative Party is unreformable. It is one of a troika of big state parties who are becoming more or less identical, as the pigs and humans became in "Animal farm". Therefore, the only realistic way forward is UKIP. At present we do have a, possibly sometimes uneasy, mix (these are my views) of social conservatives and libertarians but, given the social issues in the UK and the fact that UKIP is the only party offering any radical, yet common sense, alternative to failed policies from the other 3 parties the social conservatives do find a natural home with us.

UKIP is a fairly new party but we are growing in influence pretty rapidly although we do find, as does Dr. Paul, that the MSM is pretty much against us. Still, it is never easy. If it were, the job would not be so much fun .

I would be happy to field any questions from forum members. My email address is a gmail one that begins raymondtfinch.
Don't forget the t in the middle of my name.

Best wishes.

Ray Finch

 

[Crotale]

Firstly, let me declare an interest. I work for Nigel Farage. However, this perspective is my own, as a member of UKIP and someone who knows Nigel.

Now, for the avoidance of doubt, I support Dr. Paul.

As far as there can be a mirroring of personalities in different nations then Nigel is reflective of Ron Paul.

I speak to Nigel on a daily basis and see him most days. He is a great admirer of him. We talk about him frequently.

Nigel believes in a libertarian perspective, within British historical traditions, as Dr. Paul does within US traditions.

The UK and USA are different branches from the same root. We have many things in common and the belief in individual liberty is paramount amongst those beliefs.

Daniel Hannan is a close friend of Nigels and someone many people in the UK admire. However he still believes our Conservative Party can change from a party of big state to a small state party. As you see over there with the Republicans, once the horns of power are gripped by the troughers it is well nigh impossible to prise their greasy paws away.

Nigel believes, as do I, that the Conservative Party is unreformable. It is one of a troika of big state parties who are becoming more or less identical, as the pigs and humans became in "Animal farm". Therefore, the only realistic way forward is UKIP. At present we do have a, possibly sometimes uneasy, mix (these are my views) of social conservatives and libertarians but, given the social issues in the UK and the fact that UKIP is the only party offering any radical, yet common sense, alternative to failed policies from the other 3 parties the social conservatives do find a natural home with us.

UKIP is a fairly new party but we are growing in influence pretty rapidly although we do find, as does Dr. Paul, that the MSM is pretty much against us. Still, it is never easy. If it were, the job would not be so much fun .

I would be happy to field any questions from forum members. My email address is a gmail one that begins raymondtfinch.
Don't forget the t in the middle of my name.

Best wishes.

Ray Finch

No offence mate, but when UKIP's manifesto reflects that I'll take what you said seriously.

To me, UKIP are just trying to feed off the strides made across the pond with the r3VOLution. It's merely populism. However, are trying to gain the support of libertarians, yet what you offer in return is a manifesto full of statism.

I'll grant you Farage isn't an establishment candidate and has integrity and consistency. But character is where any similarities between Farage and Paul end. If that was the sole barometer then you could declare Kucinich is libertarian. However, if Nigel Farage was running for the GOP nomination, his platform would mirror Romney's not Ron Paul's. Nigel Farage's beliefs, and I have had a conversation with him personally after the Rally against Debt, are not libertarian. As a libertarian, I disagree with Nigel Farage's views. I respect his opinions and I respect him as a person.

However, I find it distasteful when he and UKIP try to repackage their platform as something which it's not. Nigel Farage is no libertarian, why not have some conviction and stand up for what you truly belief, instead of pretending to be something else? UKIP is not an non-interventionist party. You do not support sound money. You support the National Health Service - a government monopoly, the system which Obama is working so hard to introduce. You have protectionist policies. You have many candidates who constantly spout "British jobs for British workers". There a major fundamental conerstones of UKIP's platform which are COMPLETELY incompatible with libertarianism.

You are anything but libertarian. The only thing libertarian about UKIP is the name you give yourself. However, declaring yourself libertarian doesn't suddenly make it true. You have to have the policies to support that. Which you don't, you are an amalgamation of civic nationalists and Thatcherite conservatives.

 

[Crotale]

I would be happy to field any questions from forum members. My email address is a gmail one that begins raymondtfinch.
Don't forget the t in the middle of my name.

Best wishes.

Ray Finch

How about you address any questions here in this thread, where what you claim can be scrutinised?

 

[Republicanguy]

UKIP leader Farage he's good on the EU position. But I'm not a unionist or a royalist. And I defiantely wouldn't walk down the Libertarian road.

 

[Crotale]

UKIP leader Farage he's good on the EU position. But I'm not a unionist or a royalist. And I defiantely wouldn't walk down the Libertarian road.

Technically so is Nick Griffin and he's antithetical to libertarianism. He's (Nick Griffin that is) right on the EU for all the wrong reasons. Just opposing the EU doesn't make you a libertarian. Opposing big government abroad and replacing it with big government at home isn't too great.

 

[Pericles]

It is such a pity to see what has happened to the UK. Unfortunately, it proves the point made by the best battalion commander I ever served under in the army.

"It is much more instructive to see a bad example in action, than to see a good one."

 

[RiseAgainst]

I'm all in favour of taking over a small country with Paulbots! Liechtenstein looks like the ideal place - it's quite "libertarian" to begin with and has low population!

COUNT ME IN!!! Can I change my name to Von Liechtenstein?!

 

[Paul Fan]

A new political party? Most of us are pretty bruised by what happened to the old one - the Libertarian Party UK.

This thread is pretty recent, and gives a fair indication of the state of organised libertarianism in Britain. The comments and discussion are more significant than the original post.

The rest of the Libertarian Home site is also useful for those who want to get a picture of the current state of play in the UK.

Thanks. Interesting site that I hadn't come across. LPUK doesn't come across too well. Sad.

 

[Paul Fan]

I'm working on setting up a libertarian community online, completely decentralised. Basically a massive pool of resources and a way for UK libertarians to come together and share ideas. It's a long way off though, I currently don't have the time nor money. Even if I had the money I don't have the time yet. Once I've made a blueprint and done a complete feasibility check, consulted other libertarians I know and got some people on board to help, only then am I gonna start raising some funds to get it started.

To be completely honest, it's a not certain I'd be able to get this off the ground anyway. It's just worth a shot I suppose.

What would you do differently from "the UK libertarian"?

 

[QuickZ06]

THIS!!

We're doomed! ... I'm saving my money so i can emigrate to the US if the Dr. gets elected, failing that ima settle in that town in Texas thats being set up inline with RP values

What town is this you speak of?

 

[Paul Fan]

So what about this group? http://uklibertyleague.org/2012/03/05/liberty-league-freedom-forum-2012-sessions-update/

Are they libertarian?

 

[Libertarian_Walrus]

GRRR!

Nigel Farage is NOTHING like Ron Paul. I have spoken with Nigel, he is no libertarian.

Nigel Farage opposes the gold standard, supports fractional reserve banking, condones subsidies, believes in a burkha ban, against immigration and so on.

He is nothing like Ron Paul. Doug Carswell and Dan Hannan are the closest we have to Ron Paul, but even then, they are still some way off.

Can you tell me exactly when Nigel Farage/UKIP has ever said they oppose the gold standard and support fiat money?

 

[Pericles]

Firstly, let me declare an interest. I work for Nigel Farage. However, this perspective is my own, as a member of UKIP and someone who knows Nigel.

......................

Best wishes.

Ray Finch

Welcome, and thank you for your post.