Nigel Farage - Britain's Ron Paul

[Crotale]

As a Londoner myself, I can fully corroborate this.

The UK is f***ed, yo. Yes, most British people don't or would not have even a clue as to the economic, social or moral arguments re: libertarianism/Ron Paul. You'll find a lot of young 'anarchists' here but that has nothing to do with anarchism in a Rothbardian, free-market vein.

Anyone to the right of the BBC is deemed a "radical right-winger" and shunned. Trust me. I live this shit every day.

the UK is as socialist as they come -- though some will argue semantics with you

Yes, they smash up shops in response to our so-called "cuts" (miniscule reductions in the rate of spending increases). It's fucking helpless. We have a looooooong way to go, but it's a fight that has to be fought. Otherwise, I'm off to New Hampshire.

 

[Crotale]

I'm British and I support both Ron Paul and UKIP, I follow both daily and have done for a number of years so i'll break it down;

There's no doubt that UKIP and Nigel Farage are certainly not as 'pure' as Ron Paul is, although they are pretty close.

Mate, they're miles off. I chatted at length in a pub with Nigel Farage after the Rally against Debt. While you can argue that he is one of the better ones of a bad bunch, he is not even close. I respect his integrity, however, he is more closely ideologically aligned with Mitt Romney than Ron Paul.

UKIP is a coalition afterall between conservatives and libertarians, with a small group of left wingers who often side with the conservative right within the party. Issues like that can be seen in the burkha ban and immigration. On the other hand, there's the libertarian faction which i've noticed is growing rapidly within the party. It consists mainly of younger people who often haven't been all that involved in the mainstream parties before.

No it's not. The BNP-in-Blazers faction in UKIP are larger than the small minority of libertarians in UKIP.

UKIP is a blend of mainly Thatcherite conservatives and nationalists. There are a few libertarians trying to work within the party but they are extremely small in number.

UKIP in terms of policy are nowhere near libertarian.

Overall the party is libertarian with conservative elements, for example;

- The burka ban although unclear, was basically an intention to allow private property owners to have that power (a de facto repeal of Equality legislation).
- Although wanting a complete ban on immigration for 5 years, the party would allow work visas and then implement a tougher system.
- A system of local and national referendums would be introduced for issues such as gay marriage, abortion etc.
- Allowing home schooling, bringing back the grammar schools (although public funded, would be much more deregulated than comprehensives)
- Reform of the tax code to simplify taxation.
- Overall reductions in taxation across the board.

The more left wing aspects of the party include;

- The continuation of the national healthcare service.


Source - myself, have closely followed the party.

I think Farage is much more bold in his personal opinions (see IEA interview) but he is the head of a political party, not a movement.

You fail to mention the support for fiat money, fractional reserve banking, subsidies, central planning and a whole host of other things. UKIP are not libertarian. When they stop opposing the gold standard, the freedom to wear what you like and immigration then I'll reconsider.

 

[-:Undertaker:-]

No it's not. The BNP-in-Blazers faction in UKIP are larger than the small minority of libertarians in UKIP.

Yawn, now you've lost all credibility using left wing BBCish insults.

UKIP is a blend of mainly Thatcherite conservatives and nationalists. There are a few libertarians trying to work within the party but they are extremely small in number. UKIP in terms of policy are nowhere near libertarian.

I've just listed how they're libertarian in many aspects.

You fail to mention the support for fiat money, fractional reserve banking, subsidies, central planning and a whole host of other things. UKIP are not libertarian. When they stop opposing the gold standard then I'll reconsider.

No they don't support the gold standard as a party policy although Godfrey Bloom has hinted towards abolishing Central Banking before, that doesn't mean they aren't a libertarian party to some degree.

the freedom to wear what you like

I just have the example of the burka policy which is exactly that, something which you earlier attempted to twist (although you can be forgiven as the policy was unclear when first presented) into UKIP wanting to outright ban the burka on the streets.

I give reversing the smoking ban as another example of private property being put before made up 'rights' by UKIP.

and immigration

Even Ron Paul doesn't support open borders, he simply wants states to decide - which he himself, being conservative in person, would likely vote for anti-mass immigration measures on a state level. The United Kingdom is not a federal state, it is a unitary state - therefore immigration debate takes place at a national level, unlike the United States which is a federal state.

You confuse obeying the U.S. constitution with statewide policy.

 

[chri5opher]

//

 

[-:Undertaker:-]

Hannan and Farage have ZERO political clout in the UK. I know UKIP is technically the fourth largest party here, but I doubt most people even know it exists, let alone ever consider voting for it.

UKIP is on 5% to 8% nationally at the moment and has a fighting chance of beating the Tories in the 2014 European Elections.

It's going to be tough, but we're in it for the long haul.

 

[Danan]

Honestly guys, if there is any place in the world with even the slightest chance of moving in the libertarian direction (I'm just talking about the direction, not attainment), it's the US.

I'm all in favour of taking over a small country with Paulbots! Liechtenstein looks like the ideal place - it's quite "libertarian" to begin with and has low population!

 

[tnvoter]

that was awesome!!

 

[ssjevot]

Clearly this UKIP is a rather poor (it at all) libertarian party, but is there a more libertarian party in the UK? It seems like liberty isn't a big deal over there.

 

[chri5opher]

//

 

[Crotale]

Yawn, now you've lost all credibility using left wing BBCish insults.

Not an insult, because they are both really small. As I said, UKIP is predominantly made up of Thatcherite conservatives and moderate nationalists. You do though, which you cannot deny, have small minority of BNP-in-Blazers. Even Nigel Farage himself says so in "Fighting Bull". From my personal experience, the libertarian faction is even smaller in numbers than the small group of BNP-in-Blazers types. Please read what I say before jumping to conclusions.

I've just listed how they're libertarian in many aspects.

Libertarians would disagree with you that a party which supports fiat money, fractional reserve banking and a ban on an item of clothing could be called libertarian. Opposing a smoking ban hardly makes up for these major faults. UKIP are a conservative party, they are not libertarian. Please don't try to pretend they are such, their manifesto speaks for itself.

No they don't support the gold standard as a party policy although Godfrey Bloom has hinted towards abolishing Central Banking before, that doesn't mean they aren't a libertarian party to some degree.

You're correct, UKIP don't support the gold standard. Hence they are conservative, not libertarian.

I just have the example of the burka policy which is exactly that, something which you earlier attempted to twist (although you can be forgiven as the policy was unclear when first presented) into UKIP wanting to outright ban the burka on the streets.

UKIP want the government to intervene on the issue of burkha wearing. You can not deny this.

I give reversing the smoking ban as another example of private property being put before made up 'rights' by UKIP.

Smoking ban is completely insignificant compared to UKIP's major shortcomings on economic and social policy. They may be one of the better ones in a rotten bunch, but they are no means libertarian.

Even Ron Paul doesn't support open borders, he simply wants states to decide - which he himself, being conservative in person, would likely vote for anti-mass immigration measures on a state level. The United Kingdom is not a federal state, it is a unitary state - therefore immigration debate takes place at a national level, unlike the United States which is a federal state.

UKIP want a freeze on immigration for a few years and after they would limit immigration to a paltry amount per year. The UKIP mayoral candidate for London recently stated that he supports the notion of "British jobs for British workers". This is not the kind of policies that would be espoused by Ron Paul or any libertarian for that matter.

You confuse obeying the U.S. constitution with statewide policy.

I haven't even mentioned the constitution. I'm talking about UKIP's policies and how they are incompatible with the libertarian philosophy and how Ron Paul's beliefs contrast deeply with those of Nigel Farage.

 

[Crotale]

Clearly this UKIP is a rather poor (it at all) libertarian party, but is there a more libertarian party in the UK? It seems like liberty isn't a big deal over there.

There was the Libertarian Party UK which I was a member of but that kinda fell apart badly. Over here in Blighty, we need a huge educational campaign before we'll be able to make any headway in politics.

 

[ssjevot]

There was the Libertarian Party UK which I was a member of but that kinda fell apart badly.

Who do you vote for now?

 

[JohnM]

There was the Libertarian Party UK which I was a member of but that kinda fell apart badly.

I was a member too. The way it all happened would have been fascinating if it had not been so sad.

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

The brits haven't produced anyone good since Herbert Spencer...Lousy place that has been for over a 100 years. :/

You guys do not even much history to bolster yourselves in England. Save for the Manchesterites there is little to be proud of in England over the last 200+ years, so you guys even got history against you. As bad as it is here, being a libertarian in England you guys have literally no chance unless a new renaissance comes about. Perhaps that Mayan new Age thing may yet come to fruition

I'd recommend a move to NH also.

Cheers, that country we once called home. (Good riddance by the way haha, no need to get yer knickers in a bunch!)

 

[bluesc]

The brits haven't produced anyone good since Herbert Spencer...Lousy place that has been for over a 100 years. :/

You guys do not even much history to bolster yourselves in England. Save for the Manchesterites there is little to be proud of in England over the last 200+ years, so you guys even got history against you. As bad as it is here, being a libertarian in England you guys have literally no chance unless a new renaissance comes about. Perhaps that Mayan new Age thing may yet come to fruition

I'd recommend a move to NH also.

Cheers, that country we once called home. (Good riddance by the way haha, no need to get yer knickers in a bunch!)

If I could move to NH once I graduate, I would.

The thought of spending the rest of my life in this socialist wasteland is essentially equal to a slow, painful death.

 

[alucard13mmfmj]

Brits doesnt seem to like Ron Paul. I play a game where a lot of the players are from the UK and I got banned from that game's forum cause UKers got annoyed about me talking about Ron =s.

 

[bluesc]

Brits doesnt seem to like Ron Paul. I play a game where a lot of the players are from the UK and I got banned from that game's forum cause UKers got annoyed about me talking about Ron =s.

I'll accept you!

 

[tsetsefly]

Statism and socialism are absolutely 100% hardwired into the British psyche which is why VERY few British people would ever understand Ron Paul's positions.

British AND EUROPEAN!

I lived in Europe for 3 and half years and still travel there a couple times a year. When it came to politics I was very surprised at two things:

1. There are very little differences in political beliefs here, they all fall along the same lines pretty much. Ideologically its almost a ''no no' to stand out. I think in part this is due to the education systems. I remember talking about libertarian view points and was amazed that people had never even heard these arguments before...

2. The welfare state is all but embedded in the blood of Europeans, I remember the look I would get because I though government should not be in control of education or health care.

As much as those living in America think its in bad shape (and it is) it is one of the few remaining countries where there is hope that we might see real change in our generation.

As for Europe I think the way you change the mindset on the role of government is to chip away at it with single issues where then you can introduce greater libertarian philosophy. For example the Drug War seems like a great platform to piggy back other libertarian ideas on but who knows...

 

[DGraham]

Another Brit here, ('The British are coming!')

Its true that UKIP is Libertarian-Light, and on some things its not very Libertarian at all, but I think its changing for the better. I'm a a member of the Conservative Party (Change from within) so I cant really offer insight as a member of UKIP might, but it does appear that the party is changing and a lot of young Conservative-Libertarians are moving towards it in the hope that they can make it the Libertarian alternative to the Conservative Party.

 

[liveandletlive]

I never took the guy seriously, seems like someone who just wants to rattle the cage he's in and grandstand for his own ego. saw him on Foxnews a while back with the idiot hack host thinking he's some sort of conservative. good luck to you Brits!