Newbie buying a gun

[eduardo89]

How about a Walther P99/Smith & Wesson SW99 .40 S&W? It's small, lightweight, easy to use. I'd go for the .40 S&W instead of the 9mm...same accuracy as a 9mm but way more power, not a lot of recoil, and good enough stopping power if someone breaks into your house

 

[john_anderson_ii]

Ok, I've never owned a gun but I'm looking to buy one for home protection. I've always thought that I needed on, just never got around to buying one.

As the resident 'gun guy' in my circle of 'gun guy' friends, I always make this recommendation.

A handgun is for portable defense, not necessarily home defense. Basically, a handgun is only useful if you don't have a long gun, and that's that. In my home I would only use my handgun to get safely to my shotgun, and that's no exaggeration. I would head for my shotgun before even considering heading toward the intruder.

If you don't need portability, and you won't need concealment, and the gun is going to stay at home for home safety, then buy a shotgun and 00 buckshot or 0 buckshot. Here are the reasons I cite.

1.) They are cheap. I recently picked up a Mossberg 500A in "duck hunting" configuration for $200 and tacticalized it for about $150.
2.) Short range stopping power can't be beat.
3.) At 3:00 in the morning after being waken from a dead sleep, they are very easy to operate and hard to point at yourself or others while trying to wipe the sleep from your eyes and finding the safety.
4.) The pellets from 00 or 0 buck are roughly .32 in caliber, and you 8 or 9 pellets per shot. That's lilke shooting the bad guy 9 times simultaneously. Most won't get back up from one shot of that.
5.) The pellets, if you buy the right kind, are raw lead not jacketed. When they strike something solid they deform and destabilize, and lose velocity fast. The likelihood of a pellet exiting your exterior walls and entering a neighbors house with damaging amounts of mass or velocity left is greatly reduced (but not eliminated).
6.) Again, at 3:00 in the morning, still with sleep in your eyes and wondering what the hell is going on, shot placement with a 12GA isn't exactly the most important thing. So long as you get the pattern on target somewhere it will likely do the trick.
7.) The rack of a shotgun slide is the most terrifying thing a home invader can hear, and one of the most comforting things you will hear. The tables will turn instantly in both your mind and the intruders and that can give you a great advantage. Psychologically the intruder is very likely to go from predator to prey as soon as that sound is heard.

If my home web server is up and running (which it isn't 24/7) then you can look at the tactical transformation of a $200 shotgun here.

 

[Conservative Christian]

Ok, since it has been thrown out there, what is this recent fascination with limp wristed shooting?

Why is it so important that a gun function when used in an awkward position with absolutely no intent of properly aiming?

This to me is not the intended use of the weapon and somewhat irrelevant and completely irresponsible.

Why discharge your sidearm without actually targeting anything?

Since the painfully obvious zoomed well over your head, I'll explain. The following was posted earlier in this thread:

Posted by fisharmor:
All it takes for a semiauto to jam is a loose-wristed shooting style.

The above quote is a common misconception about semi-automatics, that is frequently used as a fallacious argument by revolver fanboys.

Those videos clearly falsify that bogus argument against semi-autos.

..

 

[Conservative Christian]

Lemme guess, Conservative Christian is a 1911 fan, right?

If it's good enough for LAPD SWAT and the LAPD Special Investigation Section, both of whom CURRENTLY use it, then it's good enough for me.

Over the last 4+ decades, LAPD SWAT has extensively tested just about every make and model of semi-automatics on the planet.

They could've chosen any make and model they wanted, and they chose the 1911.

An official spokesman for LAPD SWAT said that of all the models they've ever tested, the 1911 was the easiest for the vast majority of their officers to shoot quickly and accurately.

However, I'm not a one-trick pony. I've also owned several brands of polymer pistols, including the Springfield XD, Glock and Smith & Wesson.

Of all the double-stack polymers I've fired, I clearly favor the Springfield XD, and won't hesitate to recommend it to inexperienced and seasoned shooters alike.

For those who just can't seem to warm up to a 1911, I wholeheartedly endorse the Springfield XD Compact in .45 ACP.

..

 

[Conservative Christian]

As the resident 'gun guy' in my circle of 'gun guy' friends, I always make this recommendation.

A handgun is for portable defense, not necessarily home defense. Basically, a handgun is only useful if you don't have a long gun, and that's that. In my home I would only use my handgun to get safely to my shotgun, and that's no exaggeration. I would head for my shotgun before even considering heading toward the intruder.

If you don't need portability, and you won't need concealment, and the gun is going to stay at home for home safety, then buy a shotgun and 00 buckshot or 0 buckshot. Here are the reasons I cite.

1.) They are cheap. I recently picked up a Mossberg 500A in "duck hunting" configuration for $200 and tacticalized it for about $150.
2.) Short range stopping power can't be beat.
3.) At 3:00 in the morning after being waken from a dead sleep, they are very easy to operate and hard to point at yourself or others while trying to wipe the sleep from your eyes and finding the safety.
4.) The pellets from 00 or 0 buck are roughly .32 in caliber, and you 8 or 9 pellets per shot. That's lilke shooting the bad guy 9 times simultaneously. Most won't get back up from one shot of that.
5.) The pellets, if you buy the right kind, are raw lead not jacketed. When they strike something solid they deform and destabilize, and lose velocity fast. The likelihood of a pellet exiting your exterior walls and entering a neighbors house with damaging amounts of mass or velocity left is greatly reduced (but not eliminated).
6.) Again, at 3:00 in the morning, still with sleep in your eyes and wondering what the hell is going on, shot placement with a 12GA isn't exactly the most important thing. So long as you get the pattern on target somewhere it will likely do the trick.
7.) The rack of a shotgun slide is the most terrifying thing a home invader can hear, and one of the most comforting things you will hear. The tables will turn instantly in both your mind and the intruders and that can give you a great advantage. Psychologically the intruder is very likely to go from predator to prey as soon as that sound is heard.

If my home web server is up and running (which it isn't 24/7) then you can look at the tactical transformation of a $200 shotgun here.

Sorry bro, but it's not advisable for a beginner to start out with a homemade tactical shotgun as his very first firearm.

First off, it's much easier to miss with a shotgun at close range than most people think.

Second, if you end up having to maneuver a narrow hallway or other tight space, a shotgun's length can be a hindrance that might cost you your life, and is also easier for an intruder to grab.

Third, the muzzle blast and muzzle flash are excessive for indoors.

Fourth, if a man happens to get waylaid by an intruder, and his wife or kid have to end up using the gun to protect themselves, a handgun is much easier for smaller framed individuals to use.

Also, a person buying their first firearm needs to understand that they shouldn't limit themselves to just a home defense gun. Tens of thousands of people are attacked when they're away from home, every year.

So it's logical to buy a first firearm that will protect you at home and away. A semi-automatic pistol in .45 ACP provides PLENTY of firepower for protecting you in your home, and is also ideal for carrying in a car glove box or concealed on your person.

..

 

[devil21]

If it's good enough for LAPD SWAT and the LAPD Special Investigation Section, both of whom CURRENTLY use it, then it's good enough for me.

Over the last 4+ decades, LAPD SWAT has extensively tested just about every make and model of semi-automatics on the planet.

They could've chosen any make and model they wanted, and they chose the 1911.

LOL!

Thanks for proving my point and following the blueprint. It was all too obvious.



I guess if LAPD guys can't shoot a pistol without limp-wristing then I should feel pretty special. As well as the other millions of Glock owners around the world...

 

[john_anderson_ii]

No Text Here.

 

[john_anderson_ii]

Sorry bro, but it's not advisable for a beginner to start out with a homemade tactical shotgun as his very first firearm.

Nobody here was advocating a homemade shotgun. I was talking about a $200 receiver, in wide common use, which could be fitted with a wide range of inexpensive components. All fittings of components require 0 gunsmith skills and at most a star headed screwdriver.

First off, it's much easier to miss with a shotgun at close range than most people think.

Don't give bad advice for the sake of pride. Go ahead, go to your local range talk to tactical instructors. Ask them if they'd rather have a shotgun or a handgun to defend their home. I can guarantee the shotgun answer will be unanimous. While you are there talking to tactical instructors, ask them to take you out into their kill house, if they have one, with a shotgun. You find out very quickly how fast you can get a shotgun on target, it's damn near natural reflex, and much, much more accurate than pistols at the same distance.

Quite frankly, you are just being stubborn. The shotgun gets the job done, its much more lenient than a pistol in accuracy, and much more lenient in over penetrating power than a rifle.

Second, if you end up having to maneuver a narrow hallway or other tight space, a shotgun's length can be a hindrance that might cost you your life, and is also easier for an intruder to grab.

So can a baseball bat, or golf club, or any number of items. In a matter of 10 minutes I can teach a person how to control their shotgun, or long gun from being gripped, and how to use it, if they are able, if it is ever gripped. Pistols are much more complex to retain and require hours of sessions on grappling. The hindrance of the length of the shotgun does not outweigh it's benefits in the slightest.

Third, the muzzle blast and muzzle flash are excessive for indoors.

You don't even hear the report of your own firearm when you fire, nor do you see it's flash when you are in a flight or flee response mode. People who fire in self defense aren't even aware of the booms. Surprisingly enough, they don't really even feel the recoil, as they are operating on high adrenaline levels and muscle memory.

Fourth, if a man happens to get waylaid by an intruder, and his wife or kid have to end up using the gun to protect themselves, a handgun is much easier for smaller framed individuals to use.

I have three women in my life, one is 27 my bride, one is 12 our daughter, and one is 8 our other daughter. Would you be surprised to know that my wife, all of 95 lbs can maintain a sustained shotgun buckshot exchange? She can fire a 00 Buckshot with no problems. My 12 year old can also fire 00 buck out of our shotgun and hit targets. If I were wailayed and in a grappling match with an intruder, I'd much rather have my wife come up with the shotgun and fire from 5 feet with 18.5" inches of barrel, than walk up with a pistol and fire from 5 feet with 5 inches of barrel.

Also, a person buying their first firearm needs to understand that they shouldn't limit themselves to just a home defense gun. Tens of thousands of people are attacked when they're away from home, every year.

A person buying a firearm for the first time should buy whatever the hell he wants, it's his money. He should also get accurate advice. Any tactical, self defense, or SWAT instructor will choose the shotgun over the handgun for home defense any day of the week and in any given scenario, and that's just the way it is. Quite frankly, if someone is looking for a weapon to defend himself inside his home and you recommend a handgun, you are doing said person a disservice. There is a very good reason why handguns have full gunsights while shotguns do not. People spend years learning pistol tactics, follow on shot accuracy, front sight engagement, etc. With a shotgun, you spend about 2 minutes training and you can hit a target out to 45 feet without even thinking about it too much. Your hands and shoulders follow your eyes and wherever you are looking is your natural point of aim. That's not true with the 5" inches that make up a pistol barrel. If someone is going to use a pistol in a high stress gunfight, they better have very good training and muscle memory acquired through hours of practice. If someone is going to use a shotgun, they just need to know which end goes boom. They don't need to worry about sight alignment, sight picture, round strike drop, or limp wristing. Hell, with 00 Buck they don't need to worry about follow on shots as that will pretty much be unnecessary.

 

[Time for Change]

Since the painfully obvious zoomed well over your head, I'll explain. The following was posted earlier in this thread:



The above quote is a common misconception about semi-automatics, that is frequently used as a fallacious argument by revolver fanboys.

Those videos clearly falsify that bogus argument against semi-autos.

..

Listen, I actually supported the 1911 and s/a's in general and you're acting like I am the evil enemy "revolver nut" you seem to be dead set on arguing with? If I was a "revolver nut" would I post that I carry a 1911 every day?

You dont have to be an asshole and put on the condescending attitude, especially if you are not going to bother reading my posts.

Nothing has flown over my head here, WTF are you talking about?

If you are going to act out, quote me and state you are going to set me straight, well... you better damn sure consider the questions and not post a line of worthless nonsense as you did.

Is this bickering and nonsense really the behavior of a "Conservative Christian"?
Is posting fantasy-land tactical advice, that is clearly incorrect, and likely to get somebody seriously injured, even remotely responsible?

Is any of this nonsense in any way related to preserving our nation?

Face it, there are many opinions out there and from the perspective of the person with the opinion...their opinion is always correct.
If you want to win a person over to your way of thinking, it usually works better if you don't attack their way of thinking by trying to sound better than they are; rather, you demonstrate WHY you think it is better and let the facts do the work.
If they don't agree after you present facts in a respectable way, well, that is life.

 

[Conservative Christian]

LOL!

Thanks for proving my point and following the blueprint. It was all too obvious.



I guess if LAPD guys can't shoot a pistol without limp-wristing then I should feel pretty special. As well as the other millions of Glock owners around the world...

I haven't proven your point, and for that matter, you haven't presented any relevant points to begin with.

You've only proven your own ignorance.

 

[Conservative Christian]

Don't give bad advice for the sake of pride. Go ahead, go to your local range talk to tactical instructors. Ask them if they'd rather have a shotgun or a handgun to defend their home. I can guarantee the shotgun answer will be unanimous. While you are there talking to tactical instructors, ask them to take you out into their kill house, if they have one, with a shotgun. You find out very quickly how fast you can get a shotgun on target, it's damn near natural reflex, and much, much more accurate than pistols at the same distance.

You're the only one giving bad advice.

Speaking as an NRA-certified Pistol Instructor and Range Officer, who has been shooting firearms since the 1960's, I certainly don't need to go to my local range and "talk to tactical instructors".

I know several tactical instructors as PERSONAL FRIENDS, being a member of one of the largest private outdoor ranges in my state, and a Range Officer to boot.

Massad Ayoob and Colonel Jeff Cooper are recognized as two of the leading firearms self-defense experts in world history, and both recommend semi-automatic pistols as a first defensive firearm.

And just because a tactical instructor can get on target "really fast and accurately" with a shotgun, does NOT mean an INEXPERIENCED BEGINNER can!

When a beginner is looking for a self-defense firearm, they should NOT look for a gun that the "experts" can shoot "really well", they should look for one that THEY can shoot really well!

And a semi-automatic PISTOL makes MUCH better sense for a rank beginner than a shotgun.

Now please step AWAY from your video game console, and get some REAL WORLD experience with firearms, Mr. Rambo!

..

 

[Conservative Christian]

Listen, I actually supported the 1911 and s/a's in general and you're acting like I am the evil enemy "revolver nut" you seem to be dead set on arguing with? If I was a "revolver nut" would I post that I carry a 1911 every day?

You've proven only that your reading comprehension is poor, and that you have a proclivity for using straw man arguments. I NEVER referred to you as a "revolver nut". And I NEVER used the term "evil enemy", so please stop with the pathetic straw man tactics.

If you were able to read better, you would've comprehended that I quoted from another member, fisharmor, when I made the reference to "revolver fanboys".

So you're acting all childish and defensive, when it was clear to anybody who can read well, that I was NOT even talking about you!

.

 

[Conservative Christian]

Is posting fantasy-land tactical advice, that is clearly incorrect, and likely to get somebody seriously injured, even remotely responsible?

You've now also proven yourself a LIAR.

And if you're under the mistaken impression that referring to a liar as a liar is somehow "un-Christian", I'll be happy to refer you to Bible verses where Jesus Christ Himself calls people "liars", "fools", "vipers" etc.

Unfortunately, your poor knowledge of guns is equaled by your weak knowledge of Christianity.

There is NOTHING wrong with the VERY SOUND advice I've given here. You and several others here are the only ones posting unsound advice, not to mention utter irrelevancies.

..

 

[pcosmar]

Speaking as an NRA-certified

nuff said

that explains a lot.

 

[Elwar]

I took a gun class a few weeks ago and they went through the different styles of hand-guns. I was able to shoot a 22 and I liked the Beretta that was shown in class. I like that it has a visible safety as well as plenty of room for adding a flashlight and laser.

The 22 shot very easily for me so at some point with enough practice I'll probably graduate to a 45 but the 22 will be a good start.

 

[JoshLowry]

Stay on topic please.

Thanks.

 

[Time for Change]

Shall we review?
The OP asked for input on a HOME DEFENSE platform.
You posted...

You definitely want a HANDGUN. Also get a concealed carry permit, so you can carry a gun on your person or when you're in a motor vehicle. The chances of being attacked when you're out in public, are noticeably higher than when you're in your home.

Concealed carry on one's person isn't for everybody, and sometimes it isn't possible, but at least keep a gun concealed in your vehicle whenever you're away from home.

I recommend a M1911 in .45 ACP, with 3" barrel. Kimber and Springfield Armory both make very nice ones in a variety of models. Small, easy to fire, AND good stopping power.

Yes, you CAN have all three.

Not really any information regarding home defense in that post...

I posted my opinion...total agreement with the 1911 platform and my take on the HD platform...

What's wrong with that?
I carry a kimber SIS 4" in C1 all day every day IWB @ 3:00 and it is comfortable.
At night, looking over and seeing those sights glowing back at me is pretty reassuring as well.
Mine is not finicky at all, but I ran it through the paces, as one should for any sidearm, before ever placing any confidence in it.

I agree that the wheel gun is a simple and reliable option, but it is a bit bulky width wise when compared to the 1911.
CT Grips are a plus on any platform. If I didnt have the ambi safety on mine and wasn't too darned lazy to switch out the right side lever, I'd have them on my SIS.

Another plus for the revolver is the double action. If you get a misfire, simply pull the trigger again to rotate the cylinder to another round -vs- 1911 (or similar) where you need to rack the slide and hope for a good lockup in the heat of the moment. It's not that big of a deal when you know the platform, but that is a pratice issue. If you prepare yourself for the situation "it aint so bad".


Now back to the OP...
At night, when something goes bump, you will have cob webs in your head.
Don't doubt it, you will.
If you can overcome that grogginess, great, but it's likely that you'll have issues accurately bringing ANY sidearm to bear in that state...especially if you don't practice like crazy.

I personally think a shotgun would be more appropriate in this situation..
At least give it a bit of consideration, and be completely honest with yourself.

You continued with varied inflammatory posts with many members that had differing opinions from your own.
You posted videos of people improperly handling firearms and the resultant failures associated with such misuse.

I posted several questions…

Originally Posted by Time for Change
Ok, since it has been thrown out there, what is this recent fascination with limp wristed shooting?

Why is it so important that a gun function when used in an awkward position with absolutely no intent of properly aiming?

This to me is not the intended use of the weapon and somewhat irrelevant and completely irresponsible.

Why discharge your sidearm without actually targeting anything?

You quoted me, added an insult and did not consider the questions…nor did you bother answer them.

Since the painfully obvious zoomed well over your head, I'll explain. The following was posted earlier in this thread:

I defended myself from your baseless attack on my intellect and asked additional questions.
The result: I am called a liar, inexperienced, incapable of comprehending your posts and childish?

You've now also proven yourself a LIAR.

And if you're under the mistaken impression that referring to a liar as a liar is somehow "un-Christian", I'll be happy to refer you to Bible verses where Jesus Christ Himself calls people "liars", "fools", "vipers" etc.

Unfortunately, your poor knowledge of guns is equaled by your weak knowledge of Christianity.

There is NOTHING wrong with the VERY SOUND advice I've given here. You and several others here are the only ones posting unsound advice, not to mention utter irrelevancies.

..

I have not lied, posted any fallacies or any potentially damaging advice…
I gave my opinion to the OP that was on topic and relevant to the situation he questioned.

So what gives...why are you hell bent on discrediting me (for actually agreeing with you) during your chest beating?
Have I offended you somewhere?
Did asking questions break some unwritten rule?
Was my spent brass pinging off your head at the range sometime?

I do not come here to start shit, never have and never will, so why are you determined to start shit with me?

I have no need to justify my extensive experience to you...call me whatever level of experience makes you feel good, but back the hell off with your inflammatory postings...I have done nothing to warrant your hostilities, other than respond to your attacks.

 

[Time for Change]

Stay on topic please.

Thanks.

Roger that.

 

[Conservative Christian]

Shall we review?
The OP asked for input on a HOME DEFENSE platform.
You posted...

Not really any information regarding home defense in that post...

Your bogus proclamation = MONUMENTAL FAIL!

A semi-automatic pistol is EXCELLENT for HOME DEFENSE, and anybody who's familiar with the writings of international firearms self-defense experts like Massad Ayoob and Colonel Jeff Cooper, would know that.

Massad Ayoob is widely recognized as the world's leading living authority on handguns for personal self-defense and police use. He has personally trained tens of thousands of police officers and civilians in the use of handguns.

Massad Ayoob keeps a semi-automatic PISTOL by his bed at night for HOME DEFENSE.

Colonel Jeff Cooper, now deceased, was one of the world's leading authorities on handguns for self-defense and military use.

Colonel Cooper always kept a M1911A1 semi-automatic pistol by his bed for HOME DEFENSE.

So my recommendation of a semi-automatic pistol for a FIRST gun has EVERYTHING to do with HOME defense, and as I CORRECTLY pointed out, a pistol is also the best choice for personal defense AWAY from home.

It can be carried discreetly in your motor vehicle and on your person, which can't be done with a long arm.

Therefore, a semi-automatic pistol is clearly the BEST ALL-AROUND choice for a FIRST gun for personal self-defense, whether at HOME or away.

So ALL my points STAND, whereas you're engaging in irrelevant babble.

.

 

[Conservative Christian]

I took a gun class a few weeks ago and they went through the different styles of hand-guns. I was able to shoot a 22 and I liked the Beretta that was shown in class. I like that it has a visible safety as well as plenty of room for adding a flashlight and laser.

The 22 shot very easily for me so at some point with enough practice I'll probably graduate to a 45 but the 22 will be a good start.

You made a sensible choice for a first firearm. Certainly a much wiser choice than a tactical shotgun or .357 magnum revolver.

I'm glad to see you used common sense, rather than going the Rambo route.

However, you have to keep in mind that the .22 is NOT a reliable man-stopper.

As soon as you master the basics with your .22 and are able to shoot tight groups on a target at 21 feet, you need to start shopping for a higher caliber semi-automatic pistol.

Try out a few .45's at a range that rents handguns. If you don't quite feel comfortable with a .45, shoot a few 9mm's. Don't think that you have to jump straight to a .45 from a .22.

A 9mm isn't as good a man-stopper as the .45, but either one is substantially superior to a .22. If you go with a 9mm, make sure you keep it loaded with hollow point rounds when it's in the house, in your car or on your person.

However, it's OK to use non-hollow points when practicing at the range, as they're noticeably less expensive.

.