New Congresswoman: "Taxation Is Theft"

Nobody puts a gun to your head and tells you that you must buy from an import / export cartel. You can buy local or you can travel yourself and buy tariff free.

Wait, is your argument that, in the modern world, if I want to buy a good tariff-free from someone selling it who lives on the other side of an ocean I could just travel across an ocean, buy it from them, then travel back across said ocean?

I probably missed something...
 
All taxation is theft.

In some circumstances use fees are voluntary, and thus not tax. Though this is a gray area. If the government has a monopoly on said service and enforces the monopoly by law, then it seems correct to call the use fee a tax, because the customer has no other alternative -- by design.

Permits and licenses are also taxes, and thus theft.

Any coerced action is a theft of a person's time and life energy, and thus theft.

Voluntary actions are good. and uplift humanity.
Coerced actions (aggression) are bad. and drag humanity down.

simple.
 
Okay. But if going full time meant you doubled your salary that's different than going from zero to $2,500 for a 1 dollar per year increase. Anyway, I'm curious as to why you think it's fair for the people who benefit the most from war, the international merchants, to pay the least in taxes (no tariffs). Pretty much every war we've had has been a trade war from the Revolutionary War all the way through to today's oil wars. For more on that see "War is a racket" by General Smedley Butler.

Haha, that was a very dramatic and entertaining performance by "General Butler". As far as war being a racket as he defined it, I agree.

Why no tariffs? Because I take the Ron Paul approach on free trade. Here is a decent take on that, from Antiwar.com and the Doc. Starting the video from 5 min on is a decent truncation.

https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2016/01/19/ron-paul-says-when-free-trade-fails-war-follows/

The heart of what I think about tariffs, with regards to war, is summarized by a sentence in that link:

"Protectionism [read "tariffs"] leads to trade wars which very often lead to hot wars."

Tariffs aren't ultimately a tax on international merchants, they are a tax on the consumers of the tariffed item. They are a tax on us.

Also, international merchants aren't guaranteed any profits from war, in fact, for most, war is as damaging to them as it is most people. War profiteers profit from war. Like Gen. Butler said there, it's gain for the few at the expense of the many.

Personally I think all government should be funded by GovFundMe, the government equivalent of GoFundMe. If someone wants to pay for the military in general or fund a particular war, let him. If someone wants to fund feeding hungry children, let him. Vote by spending your dollars.

Well, in principle, I agree! The problem being, you speak of a completely voluntarist society, which is wonderful, but I'm speaking of a government something like what the Founders had in mind. GovFundMe would cease to be about government at all.

Ultimately, I'm talking about a vast reduction in taxes and gov't revenue altogether, so that yes, we keep far more of what we earn and use it to fund what we want funded. It wouldn't leave room for endless wars and socialist programs. I'm talking about vastly simplifying taxation, if it must exist, and making revenue collection much more transparent.

As far as suddenly having to pay $2500 in taxes. Look, it could be stratified to lesson the impact, say you pay $500 at $20k, $1,000 at $22.5k and so on until you're at $2500. Frankly, I somewhat like the shock effect. Maybe if everyone experienced the pain of the year or so, in which all of their raises went to the feds, then good. Let the anger flow through you, and remember that when you run across governmental squandering and waste!
 
Wait, is your argument that, in the modern world, if I want to buy a good tariff-free from someone selling it who lives on the other side of an ocean I could just travel across an ocean, buy it from them, then travel back across said ocean?

I probably missed something...

It would be interesting to find out what % of product was lost back in the days of pirates, and compare that to the % of product lost through tariffs the day after pirates were no longer a legitimate threat to ocean commerce. Then compare that to today.

I would also be curious about what would typically happen to crews who were robbed by pirates. Did they all have to walk the plank?

How can ocean travel be made safe for merchants short of making them all war ships? Or should we make them like war ships? If we can privatize roads, can we privatize protected ocean lanes? What if somebody doesn't want to use to the lane, but just wants to cross? Do they have to pay something?
 
An argument can be made that some types of theft are less awful than others. And even a minimalist government wants to funds itself somehow. That does not make it not theft though.

As an ancap at heart, I do see all taxation as theft. However, practically speaking there are some taxes worse than others. Revenue raising tariffs (as opposed to targeted tariffs) are probably one of the least offensive.
 
The idea that we should fund our government through taxes on our own people instead of taxes on outsiders who want to sell us stuff is the most ridiculous nonsense anyone ever conceived. Tariffs are a better idea than an income tax, VAT, capitation tax (sorry @Badnon Wissenshaftler ) or any other tax anybody might come up with. Raising tariffs is one of the few things Orange Man did that I actually agree with. And that's true even if they made the N95 masks I imported slightly more expensive.


Tariffs are a consumption tax on US citizens. Only at Trump University are tariffs thought to be paid by outsiders.
 
Amash is done right?

That sucks.

I think she would have signed onto team Rand, Massie and Amash.

Although I bet you she'll fail the foreign empire test.
 
Tariffs are a consumption tax on US citizens. Only at Trump University are tariffs thought to be paid by outsiders.

Only the U.S. citizens who choose to consume slave labor goods from overseas. And they only have to pay it if they buy through the cartel. You want to go to Mexico and buy something and come back, no tariff. If you are for open borders then you have a right to complain about a tariff. If you are for closed borders then tariffs are the user fee for the tyranny you want.
 
Wait, is your argument that, in the modern world, if I want to buy a good tariff-free from someone selling it who lives on the other side of an ocean I could just travel across an ocean, buy it from them, then travel back across said ocean?

I probably missed something...

Is Mexico on the other side of the ocean? Is Canada? For your "free trade across the ocean" the rest of us pay for the U.S. Navy. Now I would complain about disbanding the Navy in place of a really good coast guard. Maybe a sub fleet. But none of this "protect the shipping lanes" nonsense. If you want all that done then you, not me, should have to pay for it.
 
Only the U.S. citizens who choose to consume slave labor goods from overseas. And they only have to pay it if they buy through the cartel. You want to go to Mexico and buy something and come back, no tariff. If you are for open borders then you have a right to complain about a tariff. If you are for closed borders then tariffs are the user fee for the tyranny you want.

Broad tariffs (not punitive ones) also help keep jobs and money at home. Win/Win. Consumers might have to pay a little more, but they will have more money, especially with the elimination of the onerous income tax and all the waste that produces (CPAs, bureaucrats, etc.) Plus, more privacy in financial affairs for Americans. Grow the internal economy and maybe be a net exporter again.
 
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Haha, that was a very dramatic and entertaining performance by "General Butler". As far as war being a racket as he defined it, I agree.

Why no tariffs? Because I take the Ron Paul approach on free trade. Here is a decent take on that, from Antiwar.com and the Doc. Starting the video from 5 min on is a decent truncation.

https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2016/01/19/ron-paul-says-when-free-trade-fails-war-follows/

The heart of what I think about tariffs, with regards to war, is summarized by a sentence in that link:

"Protectionism [read "tariffs"] leads to trade wars which very often lead to hot wars."

Tariffs aren't ultimately a tax on international merchants, they are a tax on the consumers of the tariffed item. They are a tax on us.

Let me get this straight. You quote Ron Paul for the idea of tariffs being bad but you support a tax for just being alive and making over the poverty level? That...that's your argument? A capitation tax is still an income tax. Ron Paul on user fees and tariffs versus the income tax.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6bAVJ6ZdnI

Also, international merchants aren't guaranteed any profits from war, in fact, for most, war is as damaging to them as it is most people. War profiteers profit from war. Like Gen. Butler said there, it's gain for the few at the expense of the many.

That doesn't stop international merchants from pushing for war. It's not just the short term gains that some definitely make. It's the long term gains. The banana wars profited Dole long after the war was over.


Well, in principle, I agree! The problem being, you speak of a completely voluntarist society, which is wonderful, but I'm speaking of a government something like what the Founders had in mind. GovFundMe would cease to be about government at all.

The founders would have never gone for your capitation scheme. The did agree with tariffs. But also GovFundMe couldn't exist in 1776 because there was no internet.

Ultimately, I'm talking about a vast reduction in taxes and gov't revenue altogether, so that yes, we keep far more of what we earn and use it to fund what we want funded. It wouldn't leave room for endless wars and socialist programs. I'm talking about vastly simplifying taxation, if it must exist, and making revenue collection much more transparent.

As far as suddenly having to pay $2500 in taxes. Look, it could be stratified to lesson the impact, say you pay $500 at $20k, $1,000 at $22.5k and so on until you're at $2500. Frankly, I somewhat like the shock effect. Maybe if everyone experienced the pain of the year or so, in which all of their raises went to the feds, then good. Let the anger flow through you, and remember that when you run across governmental squandering and waste!

The only acceptable income tax is zero. I agree with Ron Paul. User fees and tariffs can take care of the level of spending that's required for the type of government you say you want. A capitation tax would be tyranny.
 
Is Mexico on the other side of the ocean? Is Canada? For your "free trade across the ocean" the rest of us pay for the U.S. Navy. Now I would complain about disbanding the Navy in place of a really good coast guard. Maybe a sub fleet. But none of this "protect the shipping lanes" nonsense. If you want all that done then you, not me, should have to pay for it.

I think we're talking past each other or something. I don't believe you owe me any debt if I want to trade with someone across the ocean.

I may have jumped into the thread at the wrong time or something.
 
Only the U.S. citizens who choose to consume slave labor goods from overseas. And they only have to pay it if they buy through the cartel. You want to go to Mexico and buy something and come back, no tariff. If you are for open borders then you have a right to complain about a tariff. If you are for closed borders then tariffs are the user fee for the tyranny you want.


I am not aware of any country that produces goods that has slave labor as a major source of production. I am basically for unrestricted immigration but I don't see how it makes tariffs okay.

I don't understand why I have to go to Mexico myself to avoid a tariff. And what cartels are you talking about? You mean stores? If I want to go to Wal-Mart, I don't go to Bentonville, Arkansas. Flying to Mexico to buy avocados doesn't make sense. It would be very inefficient. And I already pay a markup. The store makes money for providing the service of having what I want in stock.

If you want to argue for tariffs as a way to revenue, a national sales tax or VAT are more efficient, but it is a not ridiculous argument. But if your argument is something about American jobs or low wages in Bangladesh, I have no sympathy for that kind of economic illiteracy. There is no case to be made for that. Zero serious economists from across the political spectrum support protectionist tariffs.

It is literally the most agreed on issue among economists (tied with rent control).
Here is the list, together with the percentage of economists who agree:

  1. Tariffs and import quotas usually reduce general economic welfare. (93%) http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2009/02/news-flash-economists-agree.html
 
Broad tariffs (not punitive ones) also help keep jobs and money at home. Win/Win. Consumers might have to pay a little more, but they will have more money, especially with the elimination of the onerous income tax and all the waste that produces (CPAs, bureaucrats, etc.) Plus, more privacy in financial affairs for Americans. Grow the internal economy and maybe be a net exporter again.

Bingo! For the life of me I don't get why some people would support an even more onerous income tax over broad tariffs. Let's tax the hell out of the U.S. economy to avoid taxing the foreigners? And sorry that "It hurts consumers" argument is nonsense. The idea of the "consumer economy" is nonsense. At some point if you aren't producing as a nation you are going under.
 
I am not aware of any country that produces goods that has slave labor as a major source of production.

http://www.endslaverynow.org/act/action-library/learn-about-forced-labor-in-china

And even Apple products are implicated in slave labor.

https://venturebeat.com/2020/03/02/...ers-are-accused-of-using-uighur-forced-labor/

I am basically for unrestricted immigration but I don't see how it makes tariffs okay.

Ummmm....I said the opposite but you must have misunderstood me. If you are against tariffs then you should be against closed borders.

I don't understand why I have to go to Mexico myself to avoid a tariff.

You don't. You could simply buy something from some individual living in Mexico who just sent you the item through the mail. Or you could buy from someone who traveled back an forth to Mexico. My point is that the straw man argument that tariffs prevent individuals from trading with other individuals is a simply a fallacy. Understand now?

And what cartels are you talking about? You mean stores? If I want to go to Wal-Mart, I don't go to Bentonville, Arkansas. Flying to Mexico to buy avocados doesn't make sense. It would be very inefficient. And I already pay a markup. The store makes money for providing the service of having what I want in stock.

Having a system where Mexicans can't come across the border to pick avocados grown in America cause...reasons...forcing American avocado growers to move to Mexico is what doesn't make sense. But again, you aren't arguing for closed borders so you aren't really arguing against my position.

If you want to argue for tariffs as a way to revenue, a national sales tax or VAT are more efficient, but it is a not ridiculous argument. But if your argument is something about American jobs or low wages in Bangladesh, I have no sympathy for that kind of economic illiteracy. There is no case to be made for that. Zero serious economists from across the political spectrum support protectionist tariffs.

It is literally the most agreed on issue among economists (tied with rent control).
Here is the list, together with the percentage of economists who agree:

  1. Tariffs and import quotas usually reduce general economic welfare. (93%) http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2009/02/news-flash-economists-agree.html

Again, you aren't arguing for closed borders. Now, take your list and place it against places that have zero income tax and free travel (as opposed to free trade). If you want to make a comparison, make one about what I am actually talking about.
 
I think we're talking past each other or something. I don't believe you owe me any debt if I want to trade with someone across the ocean.

I may have jumped into the thread at the wrong time or something.

You probably did jump in at the wrong time. :) I was initially arguing against the idea that a regressive income tax is somehow better than a tariff for...reasons. That said, there is a hidden cost to your ability to trade with someone across the ocean. That's the cost of the U.S. Navy. If the U.S. Navy quit protecting shipping lanes, either other countries would step up (and charge THEIR citizens the cost which would raise the cost of whatever it is you want to import), or merchant ships would have to arm themselves which would also raise the cost. And...it would probably become cheaper. Remember that Tom Hanks movie about the captain that hijacked by Somali pirates because all he had was a flare gun? I wonder how much his rescue by Navy SEALS cost? One merchant machine armed with a 50 cal and with the proper training could have avoided the whole thing.
 
Having a system where Mexicans can't come across the border to pick avocados grown in America cause...reasons...forcing American avocado growers to move to Mexico is what doesn't make sense. But again, you aren't arguing for closed borders so you aren't really arguing against my position.

Not to detract from your overall point, but for clarity on the avocado markets, avacado distributers in the US buy from different regions during different times of the season. South America, Central America, Mexico and the US all have different prime seasons for avocados, so where distributors buy their avocados depends heavily on what season it is.
 
You probably did jump in at the wrong time. :) I was initially arguing against the idea that a regressive income tax is somehow better than a tariff for...reasons. That said, there is a hidden cost to your ability to trade with someone across the ocean. That's the cost of the U.S. Navy. If the U.S. Navy quit protecting shipping lanes, either other countries would step up (and charge THEIR citizens the cost which would raise the cost of whatever it is you want to import), or merchant ships would have to arm themselves which would also raise the cost. And...it would probably become cheaper. Remember that Tom Hanks movie about the captain that hijacked by Somali pirates because all he had was a flare gun? I wonder how much his rescue by Navy SEALS cost? One merchant machine armed with a 50 cal and with the proper training could have avoided the whole thing.

Yep, we're in agreement.
 
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