Need some help with Catholics

Arguing about whether or not abortion and the gay are sins is useless. I think a better approach is to argue that God gave man free will so each individual could decide whether or not to follow God. If God had wanted to, he obviously could have made people into automatons that were simply programmed to follow God's will. That wouldn't be very interesting, and is obviously not what happened. So it must be concluded that God wanted each indivdual to be FREE to choose God's path. So using government force to try and MAKE people follow God's path is actually interfering with the will of God that each person decides for himself.
 
So, I'm Catholic (convert), which we can discuss some other time, but I need some help with some Catholic family.

This weekend, it was discussed that the church comes first, then country... okay, I can buy that... put god over country.... went on to state that your soul is in jeopardy if you vote against life (e.g. for abortion) and against homosexual marriage. Obviously, it was a plea to vote for Romney.

I'm not going to touch the homosexual marriage issue with my family with a 10 foot pole... it won't go anywhere... the abortion issue, I agree with, but I refuse to be a single issue voter and I actually believe our foreign policy contributes more to the culture of death than abortion does.

Anyway, I need help in making my family EXTREMELY uncomfortable (to the point of quivering and tears) when they bring this up to me.... I want to throw the foreign policy and our unending wars in their face as a reason (from a Catholic POV) not to vote for either one of them.

So, I'm not deep into Catholicism nor do I know my Bible that well... I hope others can help me frame the argument back to them when (and it is WHEN) they throw this shit in my face. They love to push my buttons and I typically am the only one arguing liberty at the dinner table and how voting for the lesser of two evils IS WHAT GOT US IN THIS FREAKING MESS.

Unfortunately, I don't think mentioning the wars would be effective since they probably think they're justified.

Other than his words, Romney has no pro-life record. His record is purely "pro-choice". If that's their #1 issue, there's no reason they should reward Romney with their vote.

I would also tell them that Mormonism has more in common with Islam than Christianity. That should make them really uncomfortable and would force them to defend Mormonism.
 
Well gnostic Christians apparently think so. But that's not the point. Do Catholics believe that we much observe the Passover just because it was done in the Old Testament? Do they believe we must stone people caught in adultery just because it was done in the Old Testament? There are a whole series of things done in the Old Testament that Christians no longer do because we (supposedly) are under the new covenant. The new covenant includes "Repay not evil for evil" in direct contrast to the old covenant (old testament) teaching of "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life." In the Old Testament Saul was told to kill every many, woman, and baby of the Amalakites as well as the livestock. He was punished for not killing the livestock as well as king Agag. Do you think genocide is allowed or even expected under new covenant / New Testament teaching?

I don't think genocide should have ever been allowed in the first place. I have my own thoughts on what happened throughout the Bible, and I don't think much of what happened was due to God.
 
Not the church. God comes first.
To put church before God is blasphemy. (your family did what? Can i joke about it?)
To put state before church is heresy. (still bad but not as blasphemy... church did some bad "things")

It is ironic that Good Samaritan that Jesus talked about was from what is today Iraq (from town in Iraq Khuhuhahehoabla something like that khu or kuh or ....). Some Samaritans were forced to change their religion to Islam... so descendants of those days "Good Samaritan" are among others people also people of Iraq, Syria, Palestine etc... some are Jews and if you look at Samaritan nation you will see that they went almost same path that Israelis did (exile, genocide, forced conversion on other religion...) "Go and do!" (read bible for more details about loving your neighbor/that is a point of the story/).. also read about Jesus healing lepards (not animals ..people with plague or disease) and only Samaritan thanked him...
Would you call this ironic, funny or satiric?

10 commandments: Thou shall not kill (except Arabs) babies.
 
Unfortunately, I don't think mentioning the wars would be effective since they probably think they're justified.

Other than his words, Romney has no pro-life record. His record is purely "pro-choice". If that's their #1 issue, there's no reason they should reward Romney with their vote.

I would also tell them that Mormonism has more in common with Islam than Christianity. That should make them really uncomfortable and would force them to defend Mormonism.

Uh...WRONG.

Mormons believe that JESUS IS THE CHRIST. Your ignorant statement is the kind of reasoning that is putting Mormons back under the banner of persecution.
 
Arguing about whether or not abortion and the gay are sins is useless. I think a better approach is to argue that God gave man free will so each individual could decide whether or not to follow God. If God had wanted to, he obviously could have made people into automatons that were simply programmed to follow God's will. That wouldn't be very interesting, and is obviously not what happened. So it must be concluded that God wanted each indivdual to be FREE to choose God's path. So using government force to try and MAKE people follow God's path is actually interfering with the will of God that each person decides for himself.

This is so well said, Acala.

And to the OP, none of this is worth hurting your family. I speak from experience. I have many Catholic and Non-Denom. friends who are narrowly focused on certain issues and they have their bias, just as I have mine. All I can tell them is that on election day I will be joyfully casting my vote for NOBP (otherwise noted as NONE OF THE ABOVE).
 
Here is the best thing to consider when talking to your family:

Beatitudes

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.

Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
 
I don't think genocide should have ever been allowed in the first place. I have my own thoughts on what happened throughout the Bible, and I don't think much of what happened was due to God.

Okay. So which "God approved" killings were you talking about in post # 12? Regardless, do you understand that not everything that may have been "approved" or "commanded" in the Old Testament is "approved" or "commanded" in the New Testament?
 
If you're looking at it from a religious prospective, they cannot justify a vote for either Romney or Obama. They can only do a write-in or not vote for President.

Romney was a teacher of Mormonism (Catholics should understand that our spiritual fathers are held accountable for what they teach), so it's more than just believing in heresy, he teaches it. By the way, this is not a discussion about whether Mormonism is Christian or not. For the purposes of this thread, Mormonism is heretical. So therefore, one could not vote for a heretic. Now one could argue that he isn't a heretic because he hasn't been given the opportunity to recant, nevertheless, one cannot vote for a teacher of heretical theology.

And obviously there's plenty of material on RPF that would should how Mitt flip flops on the two issues presented. I'd pose the scenario that he's merely recanted his "liberal" positions but hasn't actually done anything that would support his new found alliance.

And obviously Obama is out because of his strong support for abortion and gay marriage.

You might also want to get this in your mind:

hXXp://www.mittromney.com/news/press/2012/01/ambassadors-holy-see-endorse-mitt-romney
 
I don't think genocide should have ever been allowed in the first place. I have my own thoughts on what happened throughout the Bible, and I don't think much of what happened was due to God.

I admit that that aspect of the Old Testament is a problem for me that I haven't resolved yet. But if the topic is Christianity, then what matters for those passages is how they function, and have always functioned since the early Church, as Christian scripture. And it has rarely been held that they enjoin something that would ever be right for any Christian to imitate.
 
If they believe in original sin then they should not trust "authority." Many neocons admit no man is an angel, so that is the reason government should exist. How contradictory. If no man is an angel, then no man should be trusted to govern.
 
Okay. So which "God approved" killings were you talking about in post # 12? Regardless, do you understand that not everything that may have been "approved" or "commanded" in the Old Testament is "approved" or "commanded" in the New Testament?

You should not let a sorceress live.
-Exodus 22:17

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel.
-Deuteronomy 17:12

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death.
-Leviticus 20:27

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
-2 Chronicles 15:12-13

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."
-Deuteronomy 13:13-19

There's literally dozens, but I don't feel like writing them all out.

As far as the New Testament goes, show me some scripture that supports your claim.
 
Didn't see this mentioned here yet so for what it's worth, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops have been promoting some initiatives with which pro-liberty folks can agree. In our church as recently as yesterday, the priest yielded his homily time for a parishioner to speak out on how HHS's mandate forces health plans to cover sterilization and contraceptives, including drugs that can cause an abortion, even when employers and employees have moral or religious objections. With the Catholic church being one of the largest health care providers in the country, this is a huge issue. It's clear that government meddling has crossed a new line and the speech received a rousing extended round of applause. There was no mention of how to vote but there didn't have to be, people get it. The trick is to get folks to understand that things don't really get any better in a Romney administration. Anyway, I would recommend becoming familiar with "Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship" - A Call to Political Responsibility from the Catholic Bishops of the United States - and some of the other issues impinging religious liberty to help persuade your family members. Good luck!
 
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The Conservative War-Mania
http://www.sobran.com/columns/2002/020808.shtml

Why do so many conservatives — most of whom oppose abortion, the killing of human fetuses — so readily, even eagerly, favor war? Not just this or that war, but nearly every war?

Faith in War

Every so often, I get an abusive letter from a reader, who is sometimes a patriot first, a Catholic second, and a logician a distant third, along these lines: “Our brave soldier are fighting in [wherever] to protect the very freedoms, such as freedom of speech, you cowardly peaceniks are abusing.”

Ignore the accusation and examine the premise. This assumes that we owe our freedoms to war, and that our wars, no matter where, defend those freedoms. It is an odd assumption, but it has the status of an American dogma, which we are all expected to accept as an unquestioned article of faith.

Never mind that our freedoms are actually won at home (as in common law and the Bill of Rights), that wars are waged for other reasons, and that the enemy seldom if ever aims to destroy our domestic freedoms. Was Jefferson Davis trying to enslave the North? Was the Kaiser aiming to abolish free speech? Was Manuel Noriega intent on preventing us from worshiping freely? Was Saddam Hussein (or Osama bin Laden) hoping to repeal the Bill of Rights? These questions answer themselves.

And never mind that our freedoms have been most seriously abridged by our own presidents during wartime: Lincoln, Wilson, Franklin Roosevelt, and now Bush.

Nor can I think of a notable philosopher or theologian who has held that war has any inherent tendency to promote personal liberty. The idea is absurd. Yes, now and then invaders are repelled or occupiers expelled by violence, but these are exceptional cases.

Did our Lord ever celebrate a war? This question answers itself too.

Bush, Religion, and War
http://www.sobran.com/columns/2003/030422.shtml

The hawks got their war, but it came at a heavy cost to America’s image and reputation in the world. As they tell it, France, Germany, and Russia were the petulant spoilers who tried to ruin the party. But this ignores the war’s huge unpopularity nearly everywhere, not so much with governments (which can be bullied and bribed) as with ordinary people. It also ignores the real spoiler: Pope John Paul II, who, in his measured words, made his own opposition to the war very clear.

Robert L. Bartley of the Wall Street Journal couples the Pope with “the voices of liberal Protestantism, which once again finds itself out of step with the pews.” He adds, “The Pope has the same problem, of course.” And he quotes polls to prove it: “62 per cent of both Catholics and mainline Protestants backed the war.”

Bartley forgets to mention one little fact: these are polls of American Catholics, a small fraction of the world’s vast Catholic population. So the Pope is only “out of step” with American pews.

“As for the Iraq war,” Bartley concludes, “what do the Pope and liberal theologians make of the cheering crowds in Baghdad and Saddam’s torture chambers? The president’s success has confounded his critics.... Somehow it’s better, I suspect, for a president to talk to God than to talk to pollsters.”

The non sequiturs are running almost too fast to keep up with here. How is the Pope’s moral opposition “confounded” by the war’s success? Did he suggest that the war would be justified if the United States won? Since when is “success” the Christian standard of righteousness?

Note too the implication that the Pope — of all men on earth! — should be attentive to opinion polls, while a president should disregard them (even though they favor him — in the United States, anyway). And now the war is justified by cheering crowds and torture chambers? What about 9/11, terrorism, weapons of mass destruction, and all the other urgent reasons we were still being given only a few weeks ago?

Ah, success! Americans are rather notorious for measuring all things by the “bitch goddess, success.” If you win, it must mean you deserved to win. America loves success stories, from Reader’s Digest to Business Week to Vanity Fair. You too can be a success! That’s the American gospel.

The Four Gospels tell a different story. They weren’t taking polls yet on the first Good Friday, but if they had, Jesus Christ would have been rated a pretty abject failure. He died a miserable criminal’s death, covered with the mob’s spit, and his followers had scattered in fear. It didn’t look like the beginning of the greatest success story in human history.

Unlike the modern CEO, Christ didn’t surround himself with successful men. He chose poor fishermen and despised tax collectors, and he kept company with rather flagrant sinners. The Sermon on the Mount doesn’t read like a modern motivational speech to a roomful of ambitious executives. It wouldn’t do as a think piece in Bartley’s paper.

Ever since, Christians have been taught to be wary of worldly success — indeed, to sympathize with the poor and to glorify the martyr. Bartley implies that President Bush talks to God rather than pollsters, but whom has he surrounded himself with? Big businessmen and, if not tax collectors, men who are eager to spend our taxes, especially on war.

Glorious War!
http://www.sobran.com/columns/2006/060831.shtml

Patriotism or Nationalism?
http://www.sobran.com/columns/1999-2001/011016.shtml

Justifying War
http://www.sobran.com/columns/2005/050301.shtml

Lots more at Sobran's site. Read him too much and eventually they might even arrive!:

The Reluctant Anarchist
http://www.sobran.com/reluctant.shtml
 
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There's literally dozens, but I don't feel like writing them all out.

Apparently I wasn't being clear. The genocide I referenced was just as "commanded" as the death decree for witches. Are you saying that you don't believe the genocide was commanded but you do believe the other death penalties were? How do you decide which to personally accept and which to reject?

As far as the New Testament goes, show me some scripture that supports your claim.

I already gave you the quotes. But I can give you the chapter and verse if that's what you are looking for.

John 18:36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

Matthew 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again your sword into its place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Matthew 5:38-48

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[a] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


Note that in Matthew 5, Jesus was contrasting the old with the new.

Exodus 21:23, 24 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

Lev 24:19,20 19 Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: 20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury.

Deut 19:21 21 Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
 
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