National Guard May Deploy as Socialists, Unions Wreak Havoc in Wisconsin

[tangent4ronpaul]

Other states: OH, IN, MS, NJ, PA

Sounds like these states are following WI's lead, but it's not completely clear.

It may just be Obama's rent-a-mobs demonstrating in these places.

 

[Anti Federalist]

No. From the sound of it though, there's a lot of vandalism and property destruction going on. It could be agent provocateurs, or it could be violent idiots being violent idiots. I definitely agree that the national guard is a bad idea (although it may actually be preferable to the riot police we usually see), and it could make the protestors martyrs (also a bad idea). At the same time, I wonder what the alternatives would be in the event things get really bad.. :-/

I don't sympathize but I do understand what is going through these people's minds.

Much of it is their own fault, for not paying attention all these years and now, finally getting backed into a corner, while "nuts" like us were out in the wilderness, screaming at the top of our lungs about monetary policy, trade policy, taxation and de-industrialization that was destroying middle class job creation.

Now, here you have a mob of Boobus that, unable to see anything in the long term, is aware enough to realize that "workin for the gooferment" is the only middle class job out there, and they are scared and pissed.

Not only that, but I'm not willing to bash these people too hard if only because of the fact that "forced austerity" measure that are being enacted (very similar to the European model) are a good reason to divide the people even further, while government collects an even larger share of everybody's fortune to hand over to the banksters.

Or, as another person posted, in regard to billions being spent on passenger rail, I'd rather see it spent on that (until bankruptcy anyway) than on aircraft carriers, killbot drones and F-35s.

This is just not going to end until bankruptcy, we're like a drunken drug addict, and there is nobody to give us an intervention. It'll be death or the gutter until things turn around.

 

[Mini-Me]

I don't sympathize but I do understand what is going through these people's minds.

Much of it is their own fault, for not paying attention all these years and now, finally getting backed into a corner, while "nuts" like us were out in the wilderness, screaming at the top of our lungs about monetary policy, trade policy, taxation and de-industrialization that was destroying middle class job creation.

Now, here you have a mob of Boobus that, unable to see anything in the long term, is aware enough to realize that "workin for the gooferment" is the only middle class job out there, and they are scared and pissed.

Not only that, but I'm not willing to bash these people too hard if only because of the fact that "forced austerity" measure that are being enacted (very similar to the European model) are a good reason to divide the people even further, while government collects an even larger share of everybody's fortune to hand over to the banksters.

Or, as another person posted, in regard to billions being spent on passenger rail, I'd rather see it spent on that (until bankruptcy anyway) than on aircraft carriers, killbot drones and F-35s.

This is just not going to end until bankruptcy, we're like a drunken drug addict, and there is nobody to give us an intervention. It'll be death or the gutter until things turn around.

There's a reason you have more rep here than anyone...except Natalie, of course. I have to spread some around before giving you more, though...I've been neglecting my rep duties lately, along with my posting duties.

 

[ItsTime]

Only the government steals from you. These workers are not THE government, they just work FOR the government. That they are paid with stolen money doesn't mean they don't have the right to negotiate their wage, as non-slaves and like everybody else. That's where your argument falls apart, although I respect your viewpoint very much.

No, they KNOW they are being paid with stolen money and are conspiring to steal more. It is not like it is hidden from them.

 

[RonPaulCult]

They aren't trying to eliminate any rights, they are trying to remove special privileges that state employees are granted by Wisconsin law. State workers can still unionize if they choose to.

What do you call it when a union is protected by law, state workers are required to be a part of the union, and the state is required by law to grant them special privileges that the private sector doesn't get? Is it still called a union, or is it a racket?

There's a lot of BS going around about what this bill says and does.

Be honest - have you read the bill? I just posted a piece of it above, where it says in clear language they are taking away RIGHTS.

Under this bill, they will still be able to unionize. That is true. In fact, for these jobs in the state of WI, the workers have NO CHOICE but to join the union (which is WRONG and needs to be addressed - but it not dealt with in this bill).

But under this bill, they won't be able to ACT as a union while negotiating with the state. The state is tilting the negotiations in their favor, which violates the rights of the people on the other end of the negotiation.

I agree that unions should not be given special privileges by the government. I wish the bill was addressing THAT instead of taking rights away from workers.

Please read the bill: http://legis.wisconsin.gov/JR1SB-11.pdf

 

[ItsTime]

This bill is not taking away rights, it is taking away special rights. Are you able to negotiate your tax rate?

 

[Anti Federalist]

There's a reason you have more rep here than anyone...except Natalie, of course. I have to spread some around before giving you more, though...I've been neglecting my rep duties lately, along with my posting duties.

Thank you, seriously, I have a great deal of respect for your writing and hope to see you around more.

Won't none of us ever catch Natalie though!

LoL

 

[prmd142]

this is going to be an imp issue in the presidential debates.. I think the voters will be more polar than ever. on the one hand you will have the younger generation who want to get out of the system. on the other hand you have the parasitic population who want milk the system as long as possible. striking similarities to Atlas shrugged. working class vs parasitic class.

 

[RonPaulCult]

No, they KNOW they are being paid with stolen money and are conspiring to steal more. It is not like it is hidden from them.

I salute you on making a compelling argument on that one. However, it brings up a moral question - should workers consider WHERE the money is coming from? Or should they take the best job they can get, wherever they can get it, to take care of their families, themselves, etc. and not worry about where the money comes from?

Are public employees slaves? Do they have a moral obligation to be paid ROCK bottom prices since it's stolen money? Should they not negotiate to improve their own lives? Should it all be volunteer work or else they are immoral?

These aren't government handouts like welfare mind you, these people show up to work each morning and do a job. Do they not have rights?

 

[ItsTime]

I salute you on making a compelling argument on that one. However, it brings up a moral question - should workers consider WHERE the money is coming from? Or should they take the best job they can get, wherever they can get it, to take care of their families, themselves, etc. and not worry about where the money comes from?

Are public employees slaves? Do they have a moral obligation to be paid ROCK bottom prices since it's stolen money? Should they not negotiate to improve their own lives? Should it all be volunteer work or else they are immoral?

These aren't government handouts like welfare mind you, these people show up to work each morning and do a job. Do they not have rights?

Again no they don't have the right to take property and rights, or conspire to do so, from others, even if it "is good for their families".

 

[RonPaulCult]

Again no they don't have the right to take property and rights, or conspire to do so, from others, even if it "is good for their families".

Well, I appreciate the discussion, and I truly respect your opinion. But I guess I'm not as hardcore as you. You're pretty much calling every teacher, every guy raking leaves in a public park, every postal worker, every army general and every fire fighter a thief. How hardcore are you in your beliefs? Since they are stealing should they be put into jail?

I think almost all of us here would agree that making these people private sector workers would be best. But as long as that's not the system, what rights if any do these people have at work? I would argue the same as everybody else - for they didn't create the system - and they are just trying to squeak out a living like anybody else.

 

[Mini-Me]

here's a lot of BS going around about what this bill says and does.

Be honest - have you read the bill? I just posted a piece of it above, where it says in clear language they are taking away RIGHTS.

Under this bill, they will still be able to unionize. That is true. In fact, for these jobs in the state of WI, the workers have NO CHOICE but to join the union (which is WRONG and needs to be addressed - but it not dealt with in this bill).

But under this bill, they won't be able to ACT as a union while negotiating with the state. The state is tilting the negotiations in their favor, which violates the rights of the people on the other end of the negotiation.

I agree that unions should not be given special privileges by the government. I wish the bill was addressing THAT instead of taking rights away from workers.

Please read the bill: http://legis.wisconsin.gov/JR1SB-11.pdf

Let me preface this by saying, "No, I have not read the bill."

I understand your perspective, and I even halfway agree with you about it, but I should point out that a government bill referring to something as a "right" doesn't necessarily make it so from the liberty perspective. The whole issue is so convoluted due to the special status unions enjoy and due to the back-asswards way the government has chosen to make its stand against the union. As spineless and indirect as it is, the bill seems to have the same effect as the simple act of non-negotiation with the unions, which is perfectly kosher (even if the very existence of government jobs funded by taxpayer extortion is not, ). If it doesn't affect the union's ability to negotiate with private companies, the only substantive cause for concern would be the slippery slope Michael Landon argued about.

 

[nunaem]

Those are some FAT leeches.

 

[low preference guy]

As spineless and indirect as it is, the bill seems to have the same effect as the simple act of non-negotiation with the unions, which is perfectly kosher

Exactly.

It has the exact same effect, but the dumb GOP legislators had to do it in an anti-liberty way. If I were a GOP legislator, I would've proposed an amendment banning the government from negotiating with the unions collectively, which has the same effect.

 

[ItsTime]

Well, I appreciate the discussion, and I truly respect your opinion. But I guess I'm not as hardcore as you. You're pretty much calling every teacher, every guy raking leaves in a public park, every postal worker, every army general and every fire fighter a thief. How hardcore are you in your beliefs? Since they are stealing should they be put into jail?

I think almost all of us here would agree that making these people private sector workers would be best. But as long as that's not the system, what rights if any do these people have at work? I would argue the same as everybody else - for they didn't create the system - and they are just trying to squeak out a living like anybody else.

I believe they should be paid what the elected officials say they should be paid. That is how it works in my town. We supply a budget, this year with a performance based raise, and the town will approve or disapprove of it at a town meeting.

If they do not like what they are getting paid, just like tax payers, they can vote out those officials. Why should they have more rights over the tax rate than the tax payer?

Of course the teachers are different, and because of the school our taxes are going up 15% this year. If it was not for the teachers our taxes would have been level. They are parasites sucking the town dry.

 

[specsaregood]

But under this bill, they won't be able to ACT as a union while negotiating with the state.

Good, public workers shouldn't be able to unionize; because the state has a monopoly on its services.

 

[tangent4ronpaul]

Those are some FAT leeches.

Yes, though Obama's union "grassroots" (union thugs) are busing in 25,000 "protesters".

Also, consider that America is the only country in the world who's poor are obese, and these guys are not poor! (thank Micky D's...)

 

[RonPaulCult]

Exactly.

It has the exact same effect, but the dumb GOP legislators had to do it in an anti-liberty way. If I were a GOP legislator, I would've proposed an amendment banning the government from negotiating with the unions collectively, which has the same effect.

Best post I have seen on this subject so far. You got it exactly right.

 

[OrigSEOH]

Other states: OH, IN, MS, NJ, PA

Sounds like these states are following WI's lead, but it's not completely clear.

It may just be Obama's rent-a-mobs demonstrating in these places.

Yes, they really got there pouty lips out here in Ohio. It has flashed me back to Jr High when my school district’s teachers went on strike. Went on for a couple of weeks and then they brought in the scabs. They had cops there so the buses could get through the picket line. I remember them yelling and spitting toward the bus. I heard they flipped a car over and set it on fire at another location. Parents came out to the lines raising cane…lots of anger for 3 or 4 days. We had the scabs for about a week then they came to an agreement and they come back wearing smiles like nothing happened.

 

[ItsTime]

Exactly.

It has the exact same effect, but the dumb GOP legislators had to do it in an anti-liberty way. If I were a GOP legislator, I would've proposed an amendment banning the government from negotiating with the unions collectively, which has the same effect.

Yup, this would have been much better.