My only gripe about Dr.Paul...

Amendment 1 uS Constitution:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

NOPE, I see nothing about separation of church and state in there.
 
That's completely bunk. The bible thumpers would raise holy hell if I got my way and adorned a courthouse with pagan iconography and prayers to invoke Satan's wisdom.

Nobody is forcing the bible thumpers to suppress their faith. We're saying they can't hang giant freakin crosses in the courthouse where everyone should expect equal treatment under the law.

Build a 700 foot tall Jesus on your front lawn if you want, but keep that crap out of my government buildings. And in return, I'll keep the statues of the Flying Spaghetti monster out of the courthouse too.

Heheh...I think about this all the time, and it would really be the test to see if evangelical Christians truly understand the implications of allowing the Ten Commandments on a courthouse lawn. I can't wait until someone tries this. If they're fine with the Ten Satanic Commandments on a courthouse lawn, then fair's fair...
 
"Congress shall make no law..."

That means NO laws. Not for religion, not against. None of the govt's business. Period.
 
Heheh...I think about this all the time, and it would really be the test to see if evangelical Christians truly understand the implications of allowing the Ten Commandments on a courthouse lawn. I can't wait until someone tries this. If they're fine with the Ten Satanic Commandments on a courthouse lawn, then fair's fair...

Seriously? "Heheh"?

If you actually do think about this all the time and you can't wait until someone tries it, then you have bigger problems than the ten commandments being posted on a courthouse lawn...
 
"The notion of a rigid separation between church and state has no basis in either the text of the Constitution or the writings of our Founding Fathers. On the contrary, our Founders’ political views were strongly informed by their religious beliefs. Certainly the drafters of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, both replete with references to God, would be aghast at the federal government’s hostility to religion. The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life."

-- Ron Paul (http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul148.html)

I think Dr. Paul is the best candidate in this presidential race, but I cannot help notice the misinterpretation of the constitutional by Ron Paul on the issue of the Separation of Church and State. While the Founders' political view were sometimes informed by religious beliefs, James Madison and Thomas Jefferson were quite clear about what what the Separation of Church and State means.

Dr. Paul is by far the best candidate, however this is the one issue I disagree with him on.

I first heard/read about his stance on the issue when it was mentioned at the Atheist Alliance Conference, and later here on this blog: http://atheism.about.com/b/2007/08/...paul-on-churchstate-separation-secularism.htm

I would like to think what everyone else thinks about this, and would appreciate any responses.

First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


Congress
shall make no law establishing a religion or prohibiting one. Constitutionally the Individual states still can.

The intention was to keep the federal government from interfering in religions matters (and laws) in the states. At time of ratification Massachusetts, Connecticut, and New Hampshire had established religions. (from The Politically Incorrect Guide(tm) to the Constitution by Kevin R. C. Gutzman )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connecticut_Colony (under role of religion, state sponsored religion until 1818)

http://www.undergodprocon.org/pop/statereligions.htm (i've never heard of this site before, but it confirms what I've stated and read)

The First Amendment creates no separation by Church and State. This was created by judges/lawyers and was not the intention of the amendment. It is a myth perpetuated by our politicians and our public education system.


As for replete with references to God in the constitution.. Bad generalization on Paul's part and bad use of words. Constitution only says 'Lord' and Declaration says God once,Creator once, and Created once.

Most the Founders were Christian, many them came from very religious communities(even states). Some weren't very Religious though, Franklin, Jefferson , and Washington were most-likely Deists.
 
Paul's stance on religion, at least in theory, bugs me quite a bit. I can only take solace in the fact that in a strictly limited Republic, it doesn't matter what the president's stance on religion is.

I agree . And i agree with the OP ..

Does that change my (A Atheist's) Opionon of him ? No it doesn't i still believe he is the best and only choice or president.

I don't like quite a few things he has talked about . But that doesn't mean he wouldn't be the best for the job.

In contrast i like even less of any of the others.. Ron paul in my opinion is the only HONEST one running.
 
Amendment 1 uS Constitution:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

NOPE, I see nothing about separation of church and state in there.

QFT.

The Framers did not intend there to be a United States where all forms of religion are suppressed. On the contrary, they wanted religion to be freely practiced, without interference from government. I think its ridiculous that a public school teacher is not allowed to wear a cross around her neck to express her beliefs. Isn't that rule a violation of the 1st amendment?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
 
Seriously? "Heheh"?

If you actually do think about this all the time and you can't wait until someone tries it, then you have bigger problems than the ten commandments being posted on a courthouse lawn...

Oh, please. Why the petty insults? I suppose I was exaggerating by saying I think about this "all the time," but I do spend a good amount of time musing about the role of government and ways to interpret the Constitution. Here's the way I see it:
Are public school teachers and judges considered private citizens while on the job, or are they considered agents of the government? If we reject incorporation (to avoid opening up that can of worms), let's just limit the scope to federal judges and public school teachers (partially paid by federal funds, thanks to our wonderful Department of Education :-/) for now...

Now, if a federal judge is acting as a private citizen erecting a monument to the Ten Commandments in his workplace (courthouse lawn), he is fully entitled to do so under his First Amendment rights, just like an office worker can hang a cross in his or her office. However, if the federal judge is acting as an agent of the federal government, erecting the Ten Commandments could potentially be construed as the state giving preference to one religion over another (or lack of religion), hence it would be a step toward establishing a state religion. By my own understanding of the Constitution, the state (and agents of the state) are prohibited from such actions.*

Hence, in my view, the people of America can look upon displays of religion on government property by government officials in one of two legitimate ways:
1.) They're individuals, and it's their right under the First Amendment.
2.) They're agents of government. Since the government cannot establish a state religion under the First Amendment, neither can it give preference to one religion over another (or none), and so government officials cannot erect religious monuments on government property or indoctrinate children with their own beliefs.

Evangelical Christians always seem to favor the first interpretation, but this is rarely out of actual principle (here I betray my cynicism ;)): Rather, it's typically out of an opportunistic desire to imbue everything with a splash of Jesus or even to establish a Christian nation. A lot of people really do just want theocracy, though they probably would be horrified to admit it, even to themselves. Now, I find it darkly amusing to imagine a judge erected monuments to Satan under, ironically, the same arguments that evangelical Christians use to defend monuments to the Ten Commandments. Unless I'm very mistaken, I imagine such a move would be followed by public hysteria and angry calls to action by evangelical Christians. They'd be even MORE upset to hear that little Johnny's science teacher started class with a prayer like, "We pray for peace on earth, candy for all the children, and for the demonic hordes from the depths of hell to overrun the pearly gates of heaven." It would really be a fantastic test to see who really believes on principle that judges and teachers (agents of the state) should be able to freely express religion on government property, and who just wants Christianity to get preferential treatment by government. I'd be willing to bet almost anything that we'd end up with a lot more of the latter than the former. Therefore, it's fun to think about. ;)

Personally, I don't actually care which way we look at this, as long as the same principle is applied consistently. However, I'm very cynical about whether most Christians understand what they're actually supporting. As long as Judge Jones is allowed to put a statue of rastafarians smoking ganja or Tom Cruise saving the world from Xenu on the courthouse lawn, I have no problem with Judge Smith erecting stone tablets with the Ten Commandments...but I have a feeling that a lot of people will call foul if the religion expressed is not a form of Christianity.

*Ron Paul probably disagrees with this, but he has also said that the Constitution is replete with references to God, which is untrue. In addition, he has stated something to the effect that our nation was founded largely as a Christian nation where other faiths would be tolerated and the right to religious freedom left unabridged. However, as many of us know, the Founders were mainly deists (based on "first cause" - i.e. they could not find a logical way around the existence of a creator), not Christians, and some have expressly stated that the United States was not based in any way on Christianity. Basically, I feel like this is somewhat of a rare blind spot for Paul...that said, my disagreement with him on this is completely trivial in light of his overall fairness, extreme prejudice against government intrusion in personal lives, etc. In other words, I disagree with Ron Paul here, but I consider the disagreement "largely academic."
 
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I agree with Dr. Paul. And I think you're just trying to stir things up.

Oh, shut the fuck up. Every time someone says something negative about Ron Paul, they're automatically accused of "stirring things up." You're making the movement the opposite of what it was supposed to be.
 
That's completely bunk. The bible thumpers would raise holy hell if I got my way and adorned a courthouse with pagan iconography and prayers to invoke Satan's wisdom.

Nobody is forcing the bible thumpers to suppress their faith. We're saying they can't hang giant freakin crosses in the courthouse where everyone should expect equal treatment under the law.

Build a 700 foot tall Jesus on your front lawn if you want, but keep that crap out of my government buildings. And in return, I'll keep the statues of the Flying Spaghetti monster out of the courthouse too.

I never said it was only atheists who were intolerant of other peoples beliefs.

If you wanted to put up a pagan display at the courthouse during solstice it wouldn't bother me so long as there was no graphic nudity or such that could shock the children.

And yes some of the crosses with the tortured Jesus are pretty graphic too and shouldn't be on public display, but a simple cross or even the 10 commandments like the judge in Alabama had don't concern me any.

It's not about what's displayed, it's only about if I'm coerced to say things or act in ways I don't wish to (with respect to religion).

Take swearing an oath, there is nothing that says you have to swear on god when you are in court, you can simply affirm your oath by your own word. There is no penalty for not putting your hand on a bible and swearing to god.
 
I am in agreement with
"The intention was to keep the federal government from interfering in religions matters (and laws) in the states. At time of ratification Massachusetts, Connecticut, and New Hampshire had established religions. (from The Politically Incorrect Guide(tm) to the Constitution by Kevin R. C. Gutzman )"

The States were very much to have distinct cultures. The Federal government was not to interfere with this. If you didn't like a State you could move to one which fitted your opinions better. The idea of leveling all of the States was anathema to the Founders. They'd watched this happen in Europe and were trying to avoid the same problems here (without success, as it turned out).

The agreement made in the Constitution was to explicitly NOT allow the Federal government to meddle in the area of religion and the States.
 
Oh, shut the fuck up. Every time someone says something negative about Ron Paul, they're automatically accused of "stirring things up." You're making the movement the opposite of what it was supposed to be.

+1
 
Federal gov't shouldn't waste time and money on this.
Doing so would only get negative results.

I think that's probably the idea.
 
First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


Congress
shall make no law establishing a religion or prohibiting one. Constitutionally the Individual states still can.

The intention was to keep the federal government from interfering in religions matters (and laws) in the states. At time of ratification Massachusetts, Connecticut, and New Hampshire had established religions. (from The Politically Incorrect Guide(tm) to the Constitution by Kevin R. C. Gutzman )

This is my understanding of what the First Amendment means, and I am pretty sure that Dr Paul has come to this understanding as well.

Personally, I'm not sure how someone who disagrees can claim to be real constitutionalist. But then many politicians claim to uphold the constitution - including, I suspect all of the current presidential candidates.
 
I would like to add only one comment on this thread. There are many things we can find wrong with anyone, We of course have to pick and choose the ones we can live with and the ones we cannot. The best advice I can give anyone on any of these questions we may raise would be, If you like the man and his message then vote for him, If you do not, then find someone who aligns theirself with your beliefs. If we intend on putting Dr. Paul in office let's make up our minds on the issues, get off the PC, and get him some VOTES!
 
True Christianity doesn't "force" itself on anyone. There are plenty of other religions out there that want to do that, "the religion of peace"(tm) being the chief one of them I can think of at the moment.
 
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