My experience with US Customs

[amonasro]

Pcosmar,

As I have said, I already had “permission”. I had been importing these for years, often having them inspected and then released. No lack of common sense on my part.

Sometimes they seize it; sometimes they don't. In your case they may have missed it the first time around, or they've ramped up their illegal drug operations to where any form of psychedelic mushroom is on the no-no list, even if it's not technically illegal or widely known. I wouldn't be surprised given the internet and how many illegal things are sent through the mail nowadays. Unfortunately you don't have much recourse, legal or otherwise.

Years ago when I was younger and dumber (and the internet was cooler) I used to import certain... ahem... "illegal" goods from Vancouver. The seller lasted about a year and was quite clever at disguising his product. He went through numerous forms of trojan packaging and each time customs would figure it out after a month or three, no matter how good it was. When I started getting multiple "your shipment has been seized due to illegal narcotics" letters from customs, I stopped. Shortly after the seller packed up shop. They were onto him and nothing was getting through to customers. They are good, and relentless.

I don't think you're getting your shrooms back.

 

[amy31416]

Mushrooms were imported from Europe. I am in US.

That's a key piece of info that I was missing. Customs is absolutely in the wrong here, assuming that they were packaged "clean." Assuming that's the case, and that it's not worth hiring a lawyer over, and that you've already contacted them several times (and asked for a manager or supervisor), the only thing I'd suggest is contacting your credit card company (or PayPal) to get a refund. Although I'm not sure they'd do that, and it's almost certainly far too late.

Beyond that, meaning your argument on the principle of it, I have no idea where to start beyond continuing to hassle customs and demand that they show cause in this confiscation. Oh, and I'd just suggest that you give more information right from the start, it was pretty difficult to figure out the scenario and perhaps I should've kept my mouth shut until you did. So, sorry about that.

 

[pcosmar]

I am in US.

Well. your screwed then.
That is neither a personal attack nor a value judgment.
Simply a statement of fact.

 

[MelissaWV]

Mushrooms were imported from Europe. I am in US.

So you went to Europe and brought them home from an outside source? You grew them yourself over there? Or...? You are vouching for a lot about their condition and environment, and you're letting us know almost no particulars. That's fine. It's your business. It also means that just about any advice you get, short of discussing this with someone who can actually make a difference, is based on a story with an awful lot of holes in it.

You are making very little sense with only as much information as we have.

From “Importers Manual USA”:
FDA Restrictions.
…
Dried mushrooms. If you are offering dried mushrooms for import, you must be certain that they are edible species. Inedible species of dried mushrooms are prohibited imports. The most common bar to entry, however, is insect infestation, usually by flies or maggots. You can prevent mushroom contamination by insects, rodents, and birth filth, or other objectionable material by taking protective measures during drying and storage. Don’t buy mushrooms from heavily insect-infested areas to import into the U.S. They will be refused entry.
…

In addition, a quick search shows that there is a list of nations from which importing mushrooms is allowed. Again, based purely on the information given, none of us is qualified to offer you very good advice, but did you perhaps get your mushrooms from a different place this time?

In conclusion, your only recourse is to actually ensure that you met all the requirements (it doesn’t seem like you did just from what’s offered as information, but again, that’s not the whole story) and have all your documentation ready.

If you are going to “ha” at a lawyer, and saying you’re already following the courts, means that really the forums can’t do more for you than that. If you have a specific request or question, have out with it, because it’s been several pages and all I see is someone frustrated that their stuff was gobbled up by the Customs monster, which is awful, but doesn’t require three pages of mysterious mushroom talk?

 

[rolirn]

That's a key piece of info that I was missing. Customs is absolutely in the wrong here, assuming that they were packaged "clean." Assuming that's the case, and that it's not worth hiring a lawyer over, and that you've already contacted them several times (and asked for a manager or supervisor), the only thing I'd suggest is contacting your credit card company (or PayPal) to get a refund. Although I'm not sure they'd do that, and it's almost certainly far too late.

Beyond that, meaning your argument on the principle of it, I have no idea where to start beyond continuing to hassle customs and demand that they show cause in this confiscation. Oh, and I'd just suggest that you give more information right from the start, it was pretty difficult to figure out the scenario and perhaps I should've kept my mouth shut until you did. So, sorry about that.

Amy,

Apology accepted. I admit I have been hesitant with details, mainly out of fear and not actually knowing where to start. The more details, I supply, the more I reveal my identity. But why should I hide my identity? I’m not sure about that either. I’ve never really known exactly how to proceed with any of this, and so this is no different. When you are under the thumb of the State, virtually every step of resistance can be characterized as “wrong/stupid”, given the small chance of success for one man in the face of the most powerful group in the history of the world. Why I should I even try, right? People will just call me “stupid”, even ones who agree in principle. But OTOH, I am glad for getting the chance to discuss this with ANYONE other than those in “the system”. Even given the ire, this is a foreign luxury.

Hopefully now you can see my dilemma; which I imagine is the same for anyone who is getting targeted by the Feds. I also imagine most of them are smart enough to keep quiet forever; an intelligence I often wish I had.

I’ll supply more critical details soon.

 

[rolirn]

Well. your screwed then.
That is neither a personal attack nor a value judgment.
Simply a statement of fact.

I understand. No offense.

 

[rolirn]

So you went to Europe and brought them home from an outside source? You grew them yourself over there? Or...? You are vouching for a lot about their condition and environment, and you're letting us know almost no particulars. That's fine. It's your business. It also means that just about any advice you get, short of discussing this with someone who can actually make a difference, is based on a story with an awful lot of holes in it.

You are making very little sense with only as much information as we have.

In addition, a quick search shows that there is a list of nations from which importing mushrooms is allowed. Again, based purely on the information given, none of us is qualified to offer you very good advice, but did you perhaps get your mushrooms from a different place this time?

In conclusion, your only recourse is to actually ensure that you met all the requirements (it doesn’t seem like you did just from what’s offered as information, but again, that’s not the whole story) and have all your documentation ready.

If you are going to “ha” at a lawyer, and saying you’re already following the courts, means that really the forums can’t do more for you than that. If you have a specific request or question, have out with it, because it’s been several pages and all I see is someone frustrated that their stuff was gobbled up by the Customs monster, which is awful, but doesn’t require three pages of mysterious mushroom talk?

Melissa,

No, “import” means to have something shipped into your country from another. I had nothing to do with the creation of the goods and did not go to the country of origin to pay or acquire them. This species cannot be cultivated and must be collected from the wild. I’m only vouching for the condition of the goods, regarding any contamination issue, because Customs would have long ago informed me of any such thing.

Regarding your excellent find in Importers Manual USA, I have seen it. But I have not been able to find a statutory basis for it. Realize that Importers Manual USA is not a government publication. Although they claim to get all their info from the gov, they do not cite a source for their statement: “Inedible species of dried mushrooms are prohibited imports”. Although I would be happy if you could locate said source, Customs has never cited any such thing to me.

All the documentation was in order, even though FDA claims the import should have included a “Prior Notice”. But that leads into the gritty details. I will provide more shortly.

I LOLd because of my experience with most lawyers I have hired. Is it your advice that no one on RPF should really complain about government abuse; that they should instead just go get a lawyer?? Gosh I’m sorry I gobbled up so much of your time with my thread. But if you want more details, this thread could become very long.

Although I realize a lot of this doesn’t make sense, the lack of sense is partly related to the lack of all the details but mostly related to the lack of sense on the part of the gov.

 

[MelissaWV]

No, if the person wants to sue, they should get a lawyer. You have discussed your desire to reclaim your goods or be compensated. That is what a lawyer or insurance agency would be able to assist you with, and why people have suggested it.

I am beginning to think you are deliberately setting out to misunderstand the suggestions people are making. Either way, good luck.

 

[rolirn]

No, if the person wants to sue, they should get a lawyer. You have discussed your desire to reclaim your goods or be compensated. That is what a lawyer or insurance agency would be able to assist you with, and why people have suggested it.

I am beginning to think you are deliberately setting out to misunderstand the suggestions people are making. Either way, good luck.

With wishes of luck like yours, who needs bad luck? Seriously, I must ask you at this point to stop hijacking. If you have nothing to add but opposition to this thread, then add nothing.

 

[rolirn]

A main issue in this case is the gov’s reclassification of my goods into HTS (Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the United States) Chapter 14. Imported goods are to be classified in the most descriptive HTS Chapter. Chapter 6 is the most descriptive of my goods. The gov argues against Chapter 6, using distortions of their own publication’s wording as their basis - in order to create a false standard (overly narrow) for inclusion regarding their ornamental value/nature (to falsely exclude my goods from Chapter 6). The gov argues for classification into HTS Chapter 14 and has took action to reclassify them there, where FDA has jurisdiction. But chapter 14 is LESS descriptive. FDA has no jurisdiction in Chapter 6. Yes, the gov is actually distorting wording from Chapter 6 in order to claim my mushrooms don’t fit. But in truth, nothing in HTS Chapter 6 (a more purely ornamental category) excludes my goods, and it far better describes them. My goods do not belong in Chapter 14, yet the gov insists on reclassifying them there. The seizure depends on the reclassification into HTS Chapter 14. The how’s and why’s I have explained thoroughly in a 28 page document, besides in multiple emails and phone conversations, but have yet to get a single point addressed – let alone get the reclassification reversed and the goods released. The official gov responses are in effect, “denied”.

 

[AceNZ]

It’s not a matter of affording an attorney; the value of the commodity doesn’t warrant it (doesn’t make business sense). It would be like spending ten grand to sue the police for seizing 5 grand. It may pan out, esp is attorney fees would be included in the judgment, but the reward doesn’t justify the risk. And then there is the question whether the attorney would ACTAULLY be working for you (experience has taught me this is a very valid question).

Fair enough. Something else to consider is whether an attorney might help grease the skids for future transactions.

I've worked with lawyers many, many times. My experience has been that to get the most out of them and to keep costs under control requires a very specific approach. For example, you might ask if they would be willing to simply write a letter for you to Customs. Government agencies are more likely to respond to an attorney than to an individual.

Well in a sense I am “going to the press” right here. And it was only after much deliberation, considering the risk, since I am dealing with Homeland Security and all. And considering the majority opinion demonstrated in this particular viewing audience, even in such a forum as this, I am quickly learning that I don’t have a chance in hell.

I meant the main stream media, not an Internet forum -- TV, newspapers, radio, etc; outlets with millions of viewers, not thousands. The idea is to enlist the public in helping to generate pressure on the customs folks. In your case, you might want to provide background in the form pictures of the item, information about them not being edible (if that's true), links to sites that sell them online, etc.

And while I have not yet produced any of my filed protest documents here, it has been all about “permission to import from Customs”. If you are suggesting I try to sneak in a letter of pre-authorization from them without them seeing my name, and then use it against them in my ongoing case against me, there’s no chance of that happening.

I'm not suggesting sneaking anything. I'm suggesting writing them a letter and asking whether it's legal to import the particular product you're talking about, without reference to your current case. If they say it is, that could be a powerful thing to be able to present to the media or an attorney.

BTW, insurance doesn’t cover Customs seizures.

That's unfortunate.

Yes, I have tried going up the chain many times.

Maybe go even further up? Maybe someone on your local Congressperson's staff would be willing to help (again, by writing a letter, perhaps)?

If by your last suggestion, you are talking about hiring a Customs broker, I always used one. They were of little help in this case.

No, I was suggesting trying to enlist the help of the company in Europe that you bought the product from. Have they successfully shipped to others in the US? You bought a product from them that you have not received. If they want future business, perhaps they would be motivated to help put pressure on Customs, provide supporting documentation that the shipments are legal, etc.

 

[rolirn]

Fair enough. Something else to consider is whether an attorney might help grease the skids for future transactions.

I've worked with lawyers many, many times. My experience has been that to get the most out of them and to keep costs under control requires a very specific approach. For example, you might ask if they would be willing to simply write a letter for you to Customs. Government agencies are more likely to respond to an attorney than to an individual.



I meant the main stream media, not an Internet forum -- TV, newspapers, radio, etc; outlets with millions of viewers, not thousands. The idea is to enlist the public in helping to generate pressure on the customs folks. In your case, you might want to provide background in the form pictures of the item, information about them not being edible (if that's true), links to sites that sell them online, etc.



I'm not suggesting sneaking anything. I'm suggesting writing them a letter and asking whether it's legal to import the particular product you're talking about, without reference to your current case. If they say it is, that could be a powerful thing to be able to present to the media or an attorney.



That's unfortunate.



Maybe go even further up? Maybe someone on your local Congressperson's staff would be willing to help (again, by writing a letter, perhaps)?



No, I was suggesting trying to enlist the help of the company in Europe that you bought the product from. Have they successfully shipped to others in the US? You bought a product from them that you have not received. If they want future business, perhaps they would be motivated to help put pressure on Customs, provide supporting documentation that the shipments are legal, etc.

I basically did that (hired an attorney for a single task) early on. It sounded good up front, but it was pretty much a bait and switch. Asking another one to just write a letter sounds nice and simple, but I suspect it would be anything but. Like the last one, I suspect they would refuse to do anything without first spending lots of time “researching” at $350+/hr, and like the last ones would deliver something far short of what was promised. What most people don’t realize is that since most lawyers bait and switch, “legal fees” involve many attempts at getting a good one – where most retainers end up being wasted $$. So what was the actual legal service I got for my money, you ask? Oh, it was that I should go ahead and file Prior Notice. You have no idea the absurdity of that advice. But arguing with the attorney is merely doubling the difficulty of your battle. But I still have hope; part of the reason I am posting here is for the faint chance of finding a good one. Anyone?

Yeah, I figured you meant the MSM, but let’s just say this step is practice for that future possibility. But again, it’s proving to be discouraging. For some reason, most people automatically express hostility at hearing about this, and tend to support the gov - and the rest tend to express fear and say you are screwed and or crazy for pursuing it. People here reacting the same way shows me there’s not much of a future in going more public.

Such a letter to Customs is basically what I have done. It’s called “Request for Internal Advice”. Believe me, I have checked out all the possibilities and pursued the options.

I’ve been told to write a representative before, but then I think of the general reaction I receive and figure it wouldn’t be much different.

The documentation showing the shipment was legal was included, and I’ve already tried getting more help from the shipper long ago. But they are only a small company and I quickly realized that the concept of them having any leverage over US Customs / DHS is ridiculous.

-------------------------
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defendants of "consensual crimes" based on nothing more than a
disagreement with the law, no matter the evidence - despite the
judge's false instructions to the contrary. There is no legal
obligation to vote "guilty" to arrive at a unanimous verdict, but
there are many good reasons to vote "not guilty". So do your
patriotic duty and preserve individual liberty at the same time
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(to counteract big abusive government), and stop convicting
non-violent people of non-crimes.
IT ONLY TAKES ONE JUROR!
www.fija.org

 

[driller80545]

No offense towards you intended, but Amanita muscara is a mushroom some people eat to get high. Because of the fanatical "war on drugs" and how the constitution has been degraded by it, you have no chance whatsoever of getting your mushrooms. Right or wrong, the moral majority have decided that you are importing mushrooms to get high on and they will not allow it. All common sense and moral or legal considerations stop at that door. This is the America we live in. So, yes, it does not matter about the legality of your import. It only matters that "drugs are bad" and anything that they might do with that as a reason will be supported by the "good" people. Sorry, not my fault. I have been protesting the drug war forever.

 

[rolirn]

No offense towards you intended, but Amanita muscara is a mushroom some people eat to get high. Because of the fanatical "war on drugs" and how the constitution has been degraded by it, you have no chance whatsoever of getting your mushrooms. Right or wrong, the moral majority have decided that you are importing mushrooms to get high on and they will not allow it. All common sense and moral or legal considerations stop at that door. This is the America we live in. So, yes, it does not matter about the legality of your import. It only matters that "drugs are bad" and anything that they might do with that as a reason will be supported by the "good" people. Sorry, not my fault. I have been protesting the drug war forever.

No offense taken - reasonable enough assessment of the possible unspoken basis. But there still remains the principle (of fighting their easily fallible legal actions). Leaving it alone, Customs will win by blatantly distorting (violating) one of its own codes. I can easily show that distortion, and how the reclassification and seizure is illegal. My filed document clearly explains it all. Should I give up or proceed? What would you do? Or maybe I should just give up the legal battle there and proceed with outing them here. Should I show the document?

 

[AceNZ]

Believe me, I have checked out all the possibilities and pursued the options.

Sounds like you've got all the bases covered then. Best of luck.

 

[rolirn]

Sounds like you've got all the bases covered then. Best of luck.

Thanks for the wishes, but it’s moot. Or let me restate it: “I’ve covered all the bases and their denials leaves no luck to be had.” At this point (since the most recent denial), it is intensely evident that all my efforts are worthless. They simply ignore my defense points. Apparently they have no oversight and no incentive to debate or respond to any rebuttals / defenses / petitions / protests – no matter how valid. Apparently they are legally compelled to accept appropriate defense documents (and provide info about deadlines, etc), but are not required to do any more than deny them. As now: They tell me I have until mid July to file a supplemental petition. But it’s a joke, since they have not replied to any of my previous petitions or made any new official allegations. So I have no idea what would constitute or require “supplemental” information. It’s like a trial where the charges are bogus and the prosecution presents no evidence; and although they allow you to present your defense, there is no cross-examination or response of any kind other than “guilty”. Oh, I almost forgot…they grant you a couple of months to present your “supplemental defense”. LOL