My debate with a fellow Ron Paul supporter regarding the birther issue.

[TheBlackPeterSchiff]

Me: My question is why is it that you guys all of a sudden have questions about Obama's citizenship? Why not Bush's, Clinton's, Reagan's, the hundred's of senators and house reps, etc. I am a Ron Paul supporter and believer in liberty, but I ju...st do not buy into this birther issue. If anything, it gives the liberal establishment more ammunition to pain the liberty movement as a bunch of crazies and racists. He will never show his BC because as long as birthers are out there it helps him paint the tea party, republicans, and libertarians as nut jobs.

Him: "but if it's true it should be pursued. We should know the truth and we should follow the rule, we should follow the law, we should follow what the Constitution says about who is qualified to be President."
- Ron Paul
http://www.yout...ube.com/watch?v=CoQ3kO9xzcs#t=1m30s

Him: ...Bush's wife, Clinton's wife, Reagan's wife, etc never said Kenya is their husband's home country...like Michelle did
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M7Rp_Ghv6k

Me: You are missing the point. I am not here to argue if Obama is, or is not a natural born citizen of the US. I am just saying that the issue has come to point to where it will only be used TO HURT OUR CAUSE. The national media will never truly investigate it. And I am sure the liberal establishment only smiles every time it is mentioned.

Him: The governor of Hawaii was afraid this issue was going to hurt Obama's chances of being re-elected...that's why he went looking for the birth certificate...with the purpose of "torpedoing the birthers" in his own words...and failed to find it. I think the other more controversial issues Ron Paul talks about...like legalizing pot...hurts the cause more than this.

Me: Well, marijuana should be legalized, and the War on Drugs should be ended. If anything, that is what has peaked interest in the liberty movement. On top of that we actually have a chance to tackle the so called war on drugs. But the birther issue will never be handled because Obama will never show it, and no one will ever force him to produce it because he is the face of the establishment. It's pointless fight and only hurts us.

Thoughts?

 

[low preference guy]

Thoughts?

I think you should leave alone people who question him. At least they don't want to fight the war on drugs on you or support bombing other countries. Those are the people whose minds you need to change. Someone who believes Obama should show his birth certificate doesn't do you any harm, but statist policies do harm you.

 

[specsaregood]

Plenty of people here objected to McCains candidacy on the same exact grounds.

 

[TheBlackPeterSchiff]

I think you should leave alone people who question him. At least they don't want to fight the war on drugs on you or support bombing other countries. Those are the people whose minds you need to change. Someone who believes Obama should show his birth certificate doesn't do you any harm, but statist policies do harm you.

Not saying they do me harm. They dont effect me one way or another. What I am saying I think it hurts the movement. Once Ron Paul 2012 gets rolling you better believe the media will be searching for every RP supporter who is a birther and putting them on camera.

 

[Agorism]

Just stay away from this issue as the whole thing has become ridiculous.

 

[madfoot]

I've never seen that video of Michelle, and I was a little surprised. But I agree that the birther issue hurts the right, ourselves included. Frankly, I think that answers the question of "Why doesn't he release his birth certificate?" pretty well. He already released his short-form certificate. If he was interested in being nice and alleviating people's fears (if he was born in Hawaii), he'd release the long-form one too. But, politically, he has a very strong incentive not to release the birth certificate - the birther issue being as strong as it is among the Republican base, he puts Republicans in a very uncomfortable position of having to pay lip service to a belief that effectively discredits them on the national scale.

 

[low preference guy]

Not saying they do me harm. They dont effect me one way or another. What I am saying I think it hurts the movement. Once Ron Paul 2012 gets rolling you better believe the media will be searching for every RP supporter who is a birther and putting them on camera.

I don't believe so. When the economy is in shambles, people aren't going to pay attention to a gotcha moment about someone who isn't even the candidate.

Plus, this is an obvious political strategy by Obama to demonize people. He either doesn't have a birth certificate or doesn't show it to demonize people and avoid talking about the important issues. People will not stop questioning his birth certificate no matter what you tell them, until the media asks Obama why he uses this issue to demonize people instead of talking about the important issues, why doesn't he just release it to shut them up.

And I don't think Ron Paul will be hurt if an isolated supporter demands to see a certificate, considering that Chris Matthews, Sean Hannity, and Donald Trump asked to see it too.

 

[acptulsa]

I'd be inclined to tell him I'm tired of the subject and ready to talk about Declarations of War.

Leave the other to the trumpheads. If anyone objects, show them the threads here (if they're still in the archives) about McCain and the Republic of Panama.

 

[specsaregood]

./

 

[Brooklyn Red Leg]

Born here or not, the mutherfucker could come out tomorrow and declare publicly that he was born in Kenya and show proof and it wouldn't matter. He would not be Impeached nor Removed. I'd be willing to bet that SCOTUS would not overturn a single law enacted under him even in spite of this. I'm more inclined to nail his testicles to the floorboards over the illegal war. At least that has SOME, however small, tangible Left/Right crossover.

 

[Carson]

Thoughts?

I didn't read the article but it sounds like you resorted to name calling in the title.

 

[dannno]

Not saying they do me harm. They dont effect me one way or another. What I am saying I think it hurts the movement. Once Ron Paul 2012 gets rolling you better believe the media will be searching for every RP supporter who is a birther and putting them on camera.

The media is using that narrative, but eventually it will probably turn on them.

 

[madfoot]

I'd be inclined to tell him I'm tired of the subject and ready to talk about Declarations of War.

Leave the other to the trumpheads. If anyone objects, show them the threads here (if they're still in the archives) about McCain and the Republic of Panama.

It just occurred to me now would be a good chance for us to pass the birther stuff entirely onto Trump. Which is possibly unfair to him, but it'd be a good way to get rid of an easy smear and really get the debate rolling on serious policy issues like welfare and defense spending.

 

[TheBlackPeterSchiff]

I didn't read the article but it sounds like you resorted to name calling in the title.

huh?

 

[Inkblots]

Thoughts?

My advice to Birthers is the same as my advice to Truthers: I may not be able to convince you that you're wrong; that's fine. But it is absolutely true that by talking about these things in conjunction with Ron Paul's campaign, you hurt his candidacy's chances with 90% of voters.

People try to besmirch Ron Paul's good name by smearing him with the views of groups of his followers. They will do this in any case, but the less true the generalizations they try to make against Ron Paul's supporters, the more obviously desperate they will appear, and the more they will backfire. Contrariwise, the more true they are in general, the more effective the smears will be at turning off mainstream voters.

Now, if Ron Paul becomes President, that would be a huge and immediate victory for liberty in the country, probably unrivaled by any development in more than 100 years. So, if you really believe in these conspiracies, and you really want to show off your deep knowledge of them at every opportunity, you really need to ask yourself one question: do you want to be right, or do you want to be free?

And since in a free society the truth will out in any case, I should think the answer would be obvious.

 

[Carson]

huh?

Birther

 

[TheBlackPeterSchiff]

Birther

Oh, I didn't know this what a derogatory term.

 

[Carson]

Oh, I didn't know this what a derogatory term.

Then my apologies.

Usually when it is used it sounds derogatory to me.

 

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

I'd be inclined to tell him I'm tired of the subject and ready to talk about Declarations of War.

If you are not going to accept the constitution and the rule of law in it's entirety...

...willing to pursue truth and justice on every matter of law

...there is no point talking about other parts of the constitution such as war.

Either the constitution and the rule of law is 100% bullshit or 100% valid.

 

[lynnf]

Thoughts?

you are wrong about so much it's hard to know where to start, so I'll go with the biggest - this didn't happen all of a sudden. Phil Berg (a Democrat, by the way) was looking at this in June of 2008 even before the Great O had the nomination. maybe you only HEARD about it lately because the lamestream media is firmly in the Great O camp.

lynn