Minnesota State Convention was rigged

This sounds kinda like what happended in the Colorado Convention. I just hope that the McCain delegates that witnessed this crap will grow a conscience by September and do the right thing.

I truly hope we get our shit togeather have a real strategy for the national convention because obviously preparations and rumping appears to be an absent thought for these state conventions.

Did you have numbers over them? Did you try to vote out the Chair? Did anybody even put up a fight? Or even know the rules? :confused:
 
Well, I would vote third party instead of Obama. However, if you must vote for establishment, vote Obama. At least then you are doing the key: STOP MCCAIN!

Already, the Republicans are slated to lose congress. They believe that at this point the only way to maintain the republicans is to get mccain in the white house. So, conversely, if the republicans lose the white house, they have no power base.

Enter the RPR's. If somehow McCain loses, and Repubs mostly lose congress, the party will be more vulnerable than it was when the gang of 11 began back last year with the new presidential cycle. Our ideology can win! And WE will be in the system.

We have to pick our foes one at a time. Beat the neo-cons before you beat the socialists.

QFT - now here is a Ron Paul supporter who totally gets it, get on board the STOP McCain train
 
I can not BELIEVE I am seeing this garbage. I thought Ron Paul supporters were intelligent and capable of full thought. Stop McCain talks are no different than the current establishment. 'Throw your vote away on our nasty candidate, so you can beat the other guy.' PLEASE. Pure rubish.

VOTE YOUR CONSCIENCE! Try to educate others to do the same. You can try to convince them to vote for the candidate you support, but, in the end, the BEST vote they can make is who they truly believe is the best candidate. Voting AGAINST someone just allows the status quo to continue.

Truly, I am disiappointed that people on this forum would be suggesting such a disgusting tactic. Go ahead and join up with Rush and the neocons and everyone else who proposes such wastes.
 
We are winning.... Dont let anyone tell you differently. These bastards are doing everything, like they should, to try to kill this revolution. If we were losing, they wouldnt need to try BUT WE ARE WINNING. Keep hammering this dam until it breaks.

+2008

We've been outed, and from the top of the RNC down, they're doing everything they can to take us out. I was frankly shocked at how blatant the shennagins and back room deals were at the Virginia convention. But the cockroaches are being exposed. And taking the high road is gaining us infinite credibility and respect.

Check this out for more:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=140782
 
I can not BELIEVE I am seeing this garbage. I thought Ron Paul supporters were intelligent and capable of full thought. Stop McCain talks are no different than the current establishment. 'Throw your vote away on our nasty candidate, so you can beat the other guy.' PLEASE. Pure rubish.

VOTE YOUR CONSCIENCE! Try to educate others to do the same. You can try to convince them to vote for the candidate you support, but, in the end, the BEST vote they can make is who they truly believe is the best candidate. Voting AGAINST someone just allows the status quo to continue.

Truly, I am disiappointed that people on this forum would be suggesting such a disgusting tactic. Go ahead and join up with Rush and the neocons and everyone else who proposes such wastes.

Yes, Vote your conscience!
 
Yes, Vote your conscience!

Voting my conscience rules out McCain for me. I have been against him since Vietnam and he squashed the POW investigation. Last year I fought him by writing letters and calling Washington to stop all his Amnesty plans he was coming up with. Now he wants to keep fighting wars and deploying troops all over the globe at our expense.

Voting for Ron Paul is what I want to do but my guess is no one will give a shit if he gets a 5 or 10% write in vote.

I do like Obama better than I like McCain and maybe the best strategy is to vote for him. McCain if beaten bad enough may weaken the control of the GOP leadership enough that we can challenge the current neocons that control it?

At this point I am pissed at how I have been treated by the GOP! I am both district and state delegate. Maybe it is time for a vendetta against these people as I no longer like them and they have shown they do not care much for me.

I want to see the GOP leadership get hammered and rocked by a huge McCain defeat - he is worse than Obama or Clinton. I do not want to see his finger on the nuke button..
 
Voting my conscience rules out McCain for me. I have been against him since Vietnam and he squashed the POW investigation. Last year I fought him by writing letters and calling Washington to stop all his Amnesty plans he was coming up with. Now he wants to keep fighting wars and deploying troops all over the globe at our expense.

Voting for Ron Paul is what I want to do but my guess is no one will give a shit if he gets a 5 or 10% write in vote.

I do like Obama better than I like McCain and maybe the best strategy is to vote for him. McCain if beaten bad enough may weaken the control of the GOP leadership enough that we can challenge the current neocons that control it?

At this point I am pissed at how I have been treated by the GOP! I am both district and state delegate. Maybe it is time for a vendetta against these people as I no longer like them and they have shown they do not care much for me.

I want to see the GOP leadership get hammered and rocked by a huge McCain defeat - he is worse than Obama or Clinton. I do not want to see his finger on the nuke button..
It makes no sense to vote for Obama. Voting for Barr, or Baldwin seem like the best options, since writing in doesn't always get counted.

Voting for Obama sends a message that you support the things he stands for.
 
Voting my conscience rules out McCain for me. I have been against him since Vietnam and he squashed the POW investigation. Last year I fought him by writing letters and calling Washington to stop all his Amnesty plans he was coming up with. Now he wants to keep fighting wars and deploying troops all over the globe at our expense.

Voting for Ron Paul is what I want to do but my guess is no one will give a shit if he gets a 5 or 10% write in vote.

I do like Obama better than I like McCain and maybe the best strategy is to vote for him. McCain if beaten bad enough may weaken the control of the GOP leadership enough that we can challenge the current neocons that control it?

At this point I am pissed at how I have been treated by the GOP! I am both district and state delegate. Maybe it is time for a vendetta against these people as I no longer like them and they have shown they do not care much for me.

I want to see the GOP leadership get hammered and rocked by a huge McCain defeat - he is worse than Obama or Clinton. I do not want to see his finger on the nuke button..

It's good to see some Ron Paul supporters understanding the BIG PICTURE....McCain and the GOP must be wiped out this round, nuked and obliterated, and that means voting for Obama as painful as that feels. In 2012 Ron Paul type people will have purged much of the party by then, and if Obama does well he might be too strong to beat, which would be sad. But better than 4 years of McSane, especailly if Obama does even 50% better than Bush. However if the GOP spends 8 long years in the wilderness, that will have given the Ron Paul crowd ample time to take over the entire process at state level on non-election years.
They will be in excellent position to beat Obama's VP, with Ron Paul type person.

This process was only round 1, and from the movement perspective, an awesome success. I don't understand how some people think protest type votes help stop McCain.
 
wtf

I don't know why people act so shocked when this happens. This is why Ron can not win the election they will just bend the rules to prevent it. This was expected in Min. because this is where the National COnvention will be. How embaressing would it be if Min. elected a majority of Ron Paul Delegates to the convention, the state party could not let that happen.

no it shows why mccain will never win the general election, ron paul is the gop's only choice left to win ,since the mccain folks are burning the bridges on 20-35 percent of their own party, in the end it kills mccains chances from the beginning, we hav 4 months to show the gop they are walking off a cliff, 4 months is a LONG LONG TIME;)
 
It's good to see some Ron Paul supporters understanding the BIG PICTURE....McCain and the GOP must be wiped out this round, nuked and obliterated, and that means voting for Obama as painful as that feels. In 2012 Ron Paul type people will have purged much of the party by then, and if Obama does well he might be too strong to beat, which would be sad. But better than 4 years of McSane, especailly if Obama does even 50% better than Bush. However if the GOP spends 8 long years in the wilderness, that will have given the Ron Paul crowd ample time to take over the entire process at state level on non-election years.
They will be in excellent position to beat Obama's VP, with Ron Paul type person.

This process was only round 1, and from the movement perspective, an awesome success. I don't understand how some people think protest type votes help stop McCain.
You just don't get it. The goal is not to deal McCain a major blow. It is to turn away from this false dichotomy that is being presented to us entirely. Obama does not stand for non-interventionism, at home or abroad. He does not stand against the Patriot Act. He does not stand against socialism. He does not stand for freedom.

A vote for him shows that while people are fed up with McCain's brand of authoritarianism, they are not fed up with authoritarianism itself. They just want someone else to tell them where their money will be spent. Someone else to tell them where their kids will be sent to die. Someone else to tell them what to do with their body.

A vote for Obama is nothing more then a vote for someone else that is offering the same things. If you vote for Obama, you are doing nothing to further this movement. I understand that there is a disagreement with people over whether to support Baldwin or Barr, I have come out in support of one of these candidates, but I recognize that both are candidates who stand in opposition to this authoritarianism. A vote for either is something that will further this movement, and this country, because it will show not just a rejection of McCain, but authoritarianism itself.
 
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Always call for a division of the assembly at this point. By parliamentary procedure, they can do nothing to deny this. Doesn't even need a second, and you can interrupt a speaker and do not need recognition.

Count all votes yourselves as well!

I did this exact thing at the Washington state convention when a standing-up vote was 50/50 by visual inspection. The speaker then "called for a vote" to see if we should do a re-vote. It was the same "standing-up" 50/50 split and of course the chair said "The Nays have it."
I insisted from Robert's rules that a roll call vote was not debatable or a votable request but the temporary chair, who happens to be the Washington State Republican Party Chair Luke Esser, insisted I was wrong and quoted Robert's Rules 10th Edition that had nothing to do with a roll call vote. Folks, this type of cheating happened at a LOT of the state conventions. These people must be sued directly as the party clearly does not punish anyone for cheating as long as it is for McCain this year.
 
Make sure you guys send copies of "The REVOLUTION" to each and every delegate. There are tools for this located in the STICKY section.

We all can help, nationwide, to get this accomplished. Let's do it!
 
You just don't get it. The goal is not to deal McCain a major blow. It is to turn away from this false dichotomy that is being presented to us entirely. Obama does not stand for non-interventionism, at home or abroad. He does not stand against the Patriot Act. He does not stand against socialism. He does not stand for freedom.

A vote for him shows that while people are fed up with McCain's brand of authoritarianism, they are not fed up with authoritarianism itself. They just want someone else to tell them where their money will be spent. Someone else to tell them where their kids will be sent to die. Someone else to tell them what to do with their body.

A vote for Obama is nothing more then a vote for someone else that is offering the same things. If you vote for Obama, you are doing nothing to further this movement. I understand that there is a disagreement with people over whether to support Baldwin or Barr, I have come out in support of one of these candidates, but I recognize that both are candidates who stand in opposition to this authoritarianism. A vote for either is something that will further this movement, and this country, because it will show not just a rejection of McCain, but authoritarianism itself.

No you STILL don't get it.
This is where supporters of Ron Paul have to make a very tough choice.

Choose a vote of conscience, with a type of protest vote and feel good that you did it. But your votes don't decide the election or hurt McCain.

OR

Choose to actually make an impact vote especially in purple swing states, and put the vote where it will hurt McCain and the GOP the most. And yes you will feel terrible about your vote. Nobody likes to vote against somebody rather than for somebody.

That is the bottom line
 
No you STILL don't get it.
This is where supporters of Ron Paul have to make a very tough choice.

Choose a vote of conscience, with a type of protest vote and feel good that you did it. But your votes don't decide the election or hurt McCain.

OR

Choose to actually make an impact vote especially in purple swing states, and put the vote where it will hurt McCain and the GOP the most. And yes you will feel terrible about your vote. Nobody likes to vote against somebody rather than for somebody.

That is the bottom line

I think the #1 priority in spreading the message (after the republican convention) will be to get Barr into the debates. Also, voting third party as a protest vote can have a spoiler impact, depending on the circumstances. It really all depends on how things play out after the nominees are settled. If for whatever reason we haven't managed to get Barr into the debates and he's polling incredibly low, then I'm all for an anti-McCain Operation Chaos, even if it means voting for Obama.
 
No you STILL don't get it.
This is where supporters of Ron Paul have to make a very tough choice.

Choose a vote of conscience, with a type of protest vote and feel good that you did it. But your votes don't decide the election or hurt McCain.

OR

Choose to actually make an impact vote especially in purple swing states, and put the vote where it will hurt McCain and the GOP the most. And yes you will feel terrible about your vote. Nobody likes to vote against somebody rather than for somebody.

That is the bottom line
You didn't even address any of my points, you just restated the point I originally responded to. Defeating McCain is not the goal of this movement. It is defeating the authoritarianism present in both major parties. Voting for Obama, someone who stands for the same things as McCain, shows only a personal dislike of McCain - not a major political difference. Because politically, they are very similar.

Voting for someone who does differ greatly when it comes to politics shows it is not something as petty as a personal dislike, which is the reason so many other Republicans will be voting Obama over him. It will show it is a genuine disagreement on politics - a refusal to vote for a candidate who does not stand for liberty. It will show both parties that if they want our vote, they cant have candidates who do not stand for it.

To rephrase your choices:

Choose to vote for Obama and show you do not oppose authoritarianism - only McCain's specific brand. You dont mind being overtaxed, you dont mind your rights being taken away, you just want this person and not McCain doing it. Afterall, he is so much more charismatic and seems like a nice guy.

OR

Choose a vote of conscience, by voting for someone who you agree with. Your vote will stand as a rejection of the false dichotomy presented by the two major parties.

Tough choice? Hardly.
 
I do not like Obama or McCain. However, we have to pick our foes ONE at a time.

You cannot destroy the system without being in it. So, to be able to bring the message of liberty, we need a position from where the media cannot ignore us.

This is the simple fact of it: Like it or not, either Obama or McCain will be in the White House come January(maybe Clinton). Whereever you vote, it had just better not be McCain.

If you vote for one of the 3rd Party-Conservatives(Barr or Baldwin), that is what the media will call a vote against McCain. If you vote for Obama, it is a vote against McCain. Either way, do what you feel is right.

JUST NEVER VOTE MCCAIN.

We cannot destroy the establishment in one fell blow. We have to be smart about it. Ron Paul has acted as Gandhi: give the guide and a plank to jump off of. Now we must be practical, and pull apart the system bit by bit.
 
I do not like Obama or McCain. However, we have to pick our foes ONE at a time.

You cannot destroy the system without being in it. So, to be able to bring the message of liberty, we need a position from where the media cannot ignore us.

This is the simple fact of it: Like it or not, either Obama or McCain will be in the White House come January(maybe Clinton). Whereever you vote, it had just better not be McCain.

If you vote for one of the 3rd Party-Conservatives(Barr or Baldwin), that is what the media will call a vote against McCain. If you vote for Obama, it is a vote against McCain. Either way, do what you feel is right.

JUST NEVER VOTE MCCAIN.

We cannot destroy the establishment in one fell blow. We have to be smart about it. Ron Paul has acted as Gandhi: give the guide and a plank to jump off of. Now we must be practical, and pull apart the system bit by bit.
And you really think the media will give us attention if Obama wins? They will just spin it as "America must be moving leftward - this landslide win is a ringing endorsement of Universal Healthcare, wealth redistribution, and tax hikes!" in so many words.

Voting for someone like Baldwin or Barr has the greatest chance of giving us and our ideas any sort of attention, so if this is all you really care about, then voting for Obama is not the option to take.
 
http://martinandrade.wordpress.com/

Final Thoughts and Reactions from the Convention
Posted on June 3, 2008 by Marty Andrade

-This state convention got me to really appreciate the 7th district convention I went to earlier this spring. At the 7th, the Ron Paul people were interviewed by the nominating committee and were then approved to run for National Delegate as long as they made it clear who they intended to vote for at the National Convention. The Ron Paul delegates were on the ballot, spoke at the convention and we held an election. Their delegation failed to win. The process was fair and open. The nominating committee chairman (Neil Nelson) made sure the process was fair and the convention was quite orderly and respectful (especially when compared to the state convention).

-Andy Aplikowski and Kevin Ecker both had reactions and suggestions regarding the convention and like usual their writings are filled with common sense (though don’t expect common spellings from Andy).

-Clearly, the chairman of the Republican Party, Ron Carey, was trying to railroad the Ron Paul supporters. The deck was stacked against the Ron Paul delegates. Their slate for the national ballot was not approved (based on ambiguous rules). The adopted rules were ignored to allow Pawlenty and Coleman to become delegates without having to meet in Rochester (as the rules states). Basically, Carey attempted to orchestrate the entire convention.

-Frankly, I don’t think this is the kind of convention John McCain would have approved of. He would have wanted a fair and open process which respected the rights of the body to decide business however they pleased. I’m sure members of the MNGOP will say “the will of the majority were reflected in the results of the convention” but I would point out the rights of the minority were trampled on, and beyond that, the rights of the body as a whole were trampled on.

Nominations from the floor should be allowed if a majority of the body agree. People should be allowed to vote for only whom they wish to, if a ballot has twenty names and you can vote for 10 but you only like five people you should be allowed to vote for only the five you like. Forcing people to vote for those they disapprove upon penalty of ballot invalidation is wrong. Not allowing people to write-in a name is another issue.

-There were two people who chaired the meeting. A man and a woman, I will refer to the male chairman as simply “the Chairman” and the female chairman as “the Madam Chairman” (backstory).

-The Chairman had a clear agenda but had enough self respect to be fair and he would even attempt to be objective every now and then, though clearly he failed. Madam Chairman was a different story. She wasn’t very good at all, and at times it was clear she was on the brink of losing her cool. Whenever Madam Chairman was running the meeting I was thinking “there’s blood in the water” but the Ron Paul people didn’t have anyone with a clear knowledge of ParlyPro or any real plan of attack regarding the convention. A bad chairman is an opportunity if you know what you’re doing. Both Chairmen spent way too much time talking to the parliamentarian. You’re running a meeting, make a decision. It’s okay to peak over at the parliamentarian once in a while but having conferences every time someone had a point of order was tiresome and unnecessary. If you don’t know what you’re doing pass the gavel to someone who does.

-Ron Carey got to his position by leading his own little insurgency against the previous MNGOP chairman. He plays hardball, a cliché anyone in politics needs to understand intimately. Clearly, Carey has no sympathy for people who aren’t willing to push back in a political fight.

-The Ron Paul People (RPP from now on) weren’t prepared at all for this convention. They should have expected to get railroaded and they should have been ready to play hardball with Ron Carey. They clearly didn’t have anyone who knew parlypro enough to lawyerball. Some organization would have gone a long way. First, two or three people should have been reviewing the MNGOP Constitution, Standing Rules and Robert’s Rules to find all the possible motions they could make. Next, they complained about not getting on the microphones often enough. Come on, there’s an easy answer to that, always have someone in queue for each microphone. Make sure those people have one or two motions in case they actually get called upon.

Incredibly, there were a few times when the chairman would actually say something like “To do what you want to you would have to make a motion to suspend the rules” or “What you would have to do is move to appeal the chair” and guess what? They never did what the chairman suggested. All you need to say, when a chairman lays out a plan of action for you, is “so moved.”

-Some other ideas the RPP could have used included: making their own ballots for national delegates and moving to use their “fair” ballots instead of the other pre-prepared ballots. I would have also held a poll outside the convention where delegates could vote on a “fair” ballot that included the RPP slate. A petition would have also been an easier idea, asking delegates to sign a petition stating the convention was held in an unfair manner. There are lots of stunts which can be pulled which can call into question the legitimacy of the results of a convention.

-Another tactic to use when you have enough people (and the RPP did) is to make sure at least one or two of your people always votes with the opposition. Have witnesses. This will allow you to move to reconsider a motion that doesn’t go your way.

-Someone asked me about the “illegal lit pieces” and I found out from one of the sergeants at arms that all lit pieces needed an address to be “legal” as per FEC rules. It’s another example of how stupid campaign laws are and how they truly are an abridgement of 1st amendment rights.

-Said it before: Learn the Rules, Play to Win. I have an entire list of tactics and strategies for meetings and conventions, which I will eventually publish.

-I believe in a fair and open process which protects the rights of everyone in a specific body to be heard. I believe in the rights of the entire group to function as it pleases and the rights of the minority to be heard. Meetings aren’t just about the will of the majority.

-FYI, Morton Blackwell was the youngest National Delegate for Barry Goldwater and wrote a piece designed to help people become national delegates. It’s informative and a candidate for the Conservative Canon.

-Just as an example of how easy it is to take specific votes out of context (a common campaign literature tactic) one could easily portray me as a flip flopper at this convention. I voted for Pawlenty to be a national delegate, then I voted in favor of suspending the rules but I voted against confirming my own vote for Pawlenty. Yet my goals during the convention were pretty clear, I wanted a fair and open process and I wanted to get my initial slate (all these are available in my convention notes posts) elected as national delegates. I never wavered from my values but when taken out of context it looks like I contradicted myself (I also voted for and against adjournment).

Specific votes shouldn’t be taken out of context, all the votes must be aggregated and put into context to come to a certain conclusion about the voter.
 
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