Mike Gravel fundraising week/mass donation day

[rossl]

There will be a fundraising week for Mike Gravel from April 15th to April 22nd, from Tax Day to Earth Day. It will culminate in a mass donation day on April 22nd.

Even if you're just barely a Gravel supporter (you like him, but not a lot), please donate just a few dollars. Every dollar counts. And if you do like him, please donate even more! But even if you only donate a few dollars that's okay. Any amount is okay, as long as you're donating.

For more info on Gravel's tax positions and environmental positions, go to www.gravel2008.us. (by the way, he's for abolishing the Fed!)

www.gravel2008.us/donate_now

 

[kevman657]

The more info is only going to worsen your chances of getting money. We are true LIBERTARIANS, that's not just someone who's against the war...

Universal Healthcare?
A new tax system? (we don't want any at all, especially not the so called "fair" tax)
Supporting a welfare state?

These are things RP and most libertarians do not believe in.

 

[rossl]

Mike doesn't want Universal Healthcare. He wants a system in which people are universally covered through vouchers.

You are an anarchist then?

 

[TurtleBurger]

Mike Gravel is a good man and an honest man, and I respect him greatly for being a voice of reason in the Democratic debates. That said, as pointed out previously in this thread, he still has a lot to learn about the philosophy of liberty. Joining the libertarian party is a good first step. I would like to see him work within the party to raise public awareness of libertarian ideals, while educating himself on the underlying principles which cause libertarians to take the stands that they do.

Anyway, thank you for joining our community and discussing your candidate with us! I believe both of our causes can be made stronger by dialoguing and working together on those issues where we have common ground.

 

[rossl]

Thanks for the thoughtful comment, TurtleBurger (who ever though they would say that?).

I think that Gravel realizes that lack of government is not the only venue for liberty. The world is more complex than that. If you get rid of government, in our current world corporations would be the most powerful entities. And then they would be taking advantage of you rather than government. So Gravel thinks that, to a certain level, we must limit the power of corporations (but not just corporations) so that they do not end up impeding on anyone else's liberty.

In this way, a certain amount of government can be more effective at ensuring liberty than no government at all. And what do we need to ensure that the government isn't taken advantage of, and that liberty is always its top priority? The National Initiative for Democracy.

 

[TurtleBurger]

Corporations are themselves products of big government. Government provides limited liability and bailouts to allow corporations to grow well beyond their natural limitations. Big corporations lobby government to enact legislation that destroy their smaller competitors and allow the corporations to grow in a nearly monopolistic environment. It's not a given that reducing government would empower corporations.

I haven't heard about the National Initiative for Democracy; I will read up on it as soon as I have some free moments.

 

[Caulfield]

Libertarianism is an ideology that promotes reducing government. There's no other way to rationalize that. If Mike doesn't believe that reducing government across the board is the best/only answer to our problems, then he is going to have to admit to himself that there are very large disconnects between what he believes and the libertarian ideology.

It's not a problem except in the fact that many libertarians are going to disagree with him vehemently on this subject.

 

[Just Come Home]

Mike doesn't want Universal Healthcare. He wants a system in which people are universally covered through vouchers.

You are an anarchist then?

That system sounds horrible to me. I honestly don't have a problem with my healthcare now. I don't want to lose my family's benefits and access to health care. It seems like the system you're describing would be a good way to water it down and greatly reduce the quality of care.

 

[ARealConservative]

Mike doesn't want Universal Healthcare. He wants a system in which people are universally covered through vouchers.

You are an anarchist then?

anarchy is the lack of a state.

I doubt we have many anarchists here - they tend to not be proactive in voting.

If people are universally covered then they are not truly responsible for their own actions. How do you and Mr Gravel reconcile this truth?

 

[porcupine]

Yay!! Give money to Gravel so you have national gun registration, a national ID card and government insured healthcare!! Woo-hoo! True libertarianism...NOT!

Anyone supporting Gravel obviously doesn't understand the nature of liberty and individual rights. You need to do some serious reading.

 

[ARealConservative]

Yay!! Give money to Gravel so you have national gun registration, a national ID card and government insured healthcare!! Woo-hoo! True libertarianism...NOT!

Anyone supporting Gravel obviously doesn't understand the nature of liberty and individual rights. You need to do some serious reading.

I agree but a little more tact and understanding is called for.

I have a lot of respect for Gravel. And those that follow him are on the right path, they just got slightly off course.

Gravel is ultimately a class warfare supporter. His supporters need to understand that this is the policy they pursue.

 

[TurtleBurger]

I agree but a little more tact and understanding is called for.

+1

Remember this is the Welcome section of the forums. Don't chase people away!

 

[Just Come Home]

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like Mr. Gravel's pursuit of the libertarian nomination is a slap in the face of libertarians. He doesn't even come close to demonstrating an understanding of libertarian philosophy. His message to us is that we don't hold any principles - we just want to vote against the establishment, and thus he's our candidate.

Mr. Gravel may have some libertarian beliefs, but he is not a libertarian.

 

[ARealConservative]

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like Mr. Gravel's pursuit of the libertarian nomination is a slap in the face of libertarians. He doesn't even come close to demonstrating an understanding of libertarian philosophy. His message to us is that we don't hold any principles - we just want to vote against the establishment, and thus he's our candidate.

Mr. Gravel may have some libertarian beliefs, but he is not a libertarian.

I suppose I'm not offended because I'm not actually a libertarian.

In the past I have pointed out the shortcomings of libertarian thought only to find that people are unable to counter them, or claim that I am dealing in extreme examples.

the Libertarian Party itself is primarily for eductional purposes anyway, so I wouldn't sweat Gravel coming on board. We have spent a century eroding the rule of law and individual liberty and it will take some time to undo it. When that does happen, I wouldn't expect the Libertarian Party to be the driving force behind it.

 

[Patriot123]

I love how people bash Mr. Gravel even without knowing a thing about him. As I have said in other threads in which I have defended him, I have had the honor of actually meeting this man. I've seen every stance he has, and I'll tell you right now. The unique thing about Senator Gravel is that he'll listen to the people. He won't just go and do what he thinks is right without the general consensus of the people. So you say you want no gun laws? He'll listen to you. And by the way, he isn't for abolishing guns, fyi. He's simply for stricter rules, which I'm sure he'd be more than happy to debate with others. He isn't corrupt. He isn't in it for the power or money. He's in this for the people. For America. And no one understands this about Senator Gravel. This is a great man that you can donate to; a man who literally ended Vietnam. A man who's done so much for this country. And you're choosing to ignore his message of peace simply because you don't feel strongly about a few of the things he says. Is that American, now? I thought what we were fighting for in this movement was empowering those who want to benefit this nation?

 

[porcupine]

I love how people bash Mr. Gravel even without knowing a thing about him. As I have said in other threads in which I have defended him, I have had the honor of actually meeting this man. I've seen every stance he has, and I'll tell you right now. The unique thing about Senator Gravel is that he'll listen to the people. He won't just go and do what he thinks is right without the general consensus of the people. So you say you want no gun laws? He'll listen to you. And by the way, he isn't for abolishing guns, fyi. He's simply for stricter rules, which I'm sure he'd be more than happy to debate with others. He isn't corrupt. He isn't in it for the power or money. He's in this for the people. For America. And no one understands this about Senator Gravel. This is a great man that you can donate to; a man who literally ended Vietnam. A man who's done so much for this country. And you're choosing to ignore his message of peace simply because you don't feel strongly about a few of the things he says. Is that American, now? I thought what we were fighting for in this movement was empowering those who want to benefit this nation?

Yeah, I'm sure he's a nice guy. Glad you got to hang out. He still supports tyrannical government.

And I'm not "ignoring" his message. I"m speaking out against it. It's not because I "don't feel strongly" about what he says. It's because I strongly oppose things that he says.

 

[rossl]

Mike Gravel wants to drastically reduce the size of the government. Just as in everything else, one must distinguish between efficiency and effectiveness. Libertarians want small, efficient government, but in some cases that does not equate with effective government.

Again, if you don't understand the National Initiative (www.ni4d.us), then you really don't understand Mike Gravel.

Please, learn about the man. The reason that he doesn't seem Libertarian is that he doesn't ignorantly conform to any party line. He is thoughtful and forms his own opinions. But overall, I would say he's very libertarian.

 

[Patriot123]

I think it's safe to assume that everyone knows about his National Initiative. Or at least the informed folks. Problem is that people have given a Democracy a bad name. In all reality, there's nothing wrong with a Democracy. The only way it can ultimately fail is via the people. There's no other way for a Democracy to fall... With all due respect, even though I have the utmost respect for the John Birch Society, they gave the Democratic form of government a terrible name without the proper facts... Moreso just speculation and assumption, really. Just my two cents.

 

[porcupine]

Mike Gravel wants to drastically reduce the size of the government. Just as in everything else, one must distinguish between efficiency and effectiveness. Libertarians want small, efficient government, but in some cases that does not equate with effective government.

I don't want government to be "efficient." I want it to stay out of my life. Something Gravel has no intention of doing.

 

[V-rod]

Gravel believes in higher taxes for social welfare. He also is a proponent of Direct Democracy. Forget him.