Mary the Queen of Heaven

[Terry1]

Hi Terry. I just want to say a couple things right now. And later, if you want, we can discuss this in more depth. You've made your thoughts on salvation (the position of the EO church) clear, in a number of posts. So I'm well aware of your viewpoint.

I'm not sure why you felt it was necessary to post all of that to me. Can I ask you a favor? I really want to cut to the chase, so can you please sum up what you really were trying to say to me, in 1 or 2 sentences?

The reason I ask is because I don't want to assume. I could do that, but it's better that I let you speak for yourself, in a very concise, in a nutshell sort of way.

Thanks!

Absolutely Lily. Basically because you stated that you disagreed with my opinion on *what saves* (without an explanation as to why you disagreed), and also your opinion of those who practice traditions in their church not consistent with what you believe. After that, my explanation sort of took on a life of it's own with one thing being closely associated with the other that I thought should also be included with my explanation to you. Hope this helps.

 

[Terry1]

[/B]
there is so much wrong with your post, I'll just reply to this. Jesus isn't talking to Believer's here. He is speaking to FALSE teachers (who preached in His name, cast out demons)- even the devil can do that. Jesus says I NEVER knew you. Meaning He never knew the person. If you are saved, He sure does know you!

So you're basically saying then that *belief alone* in the name of Jesus is not enough. You just agreed with me here, but unintentionally I'm sure. So Kevin--if belief alone won't get us there and even doing these good works in the name of Jesus won't do it either--then why do you suppose that the Apostles like Paul and James both tell you that "faith without works is dead" and that it's possible to fall from grace?

I'll explain: Because our faith in Jesus is why we do what we do because living in faith means that you're walking in the spirit of the Lord. When we walk in the spirit of the Lord we are answering our calling and what we do as in "works" then is done by the leading of the Holy Spirit and not something we do outside of faith in Jesus to obtain righteousness by our "dead works".

Many of you are very confused about the difference between "dead works" and "works of faith" and this is why you can not reconcile your beliefs with James or the Apostle Paul who most certainly tells us that "faith without works *of faith* are dead works. "Dead works" are representative of what the Jews did in the OT and under the Old Covenant to obtain righteousness absent faith. "Works of faith" are what we do now living in the NT and under the New Covenant of grace through faith.

You could not possibly believe in being once saved always saved if you truly understood the Gospel of Jesus Christ. This is paramount to your eternal salvation and you need to seek this out for your own spiritual well being.

 

[TER]

As will I.

Therefore, when we want to identify what the true orthodox Church is, the proper way to do it is by letting the New Testament tell us.

You are correct that the NT should be our guide, including the parts about bishops, priests, and deacons. But the NT is not a complete guide. We also have to look at the members of the body through the first generations and centuries, how they lived within this Church and passed the apostolic beliefs down for prosperity. The NT gives us the beginnings of the Church but it is the Church itself which gives wise to the workings of the Holy Spirit through it in the time since then. Taking the writings of the NT as the only source only gives part of the picture. If one studies the lives of the earliest Christian writers and saints (the Church Fathers), then they can begin to identify where this Church was and is today through the line of apostolic succession and Eucharistic unity. Many who do such a study come to realize that the Orthodox Church is indeed the Church which spiritually and physically is that Church of the New Testament.

 

[Terry1]

it sure is. OSAS was taught by Jesus Himself.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
(John 10:28).

Jesus is speaking about those who have already died the first death and obtained eternal life. He is not speaking about those who are still alive on earth. Because your version does not reconcile with the rest of NT scripture that NOWHERE tells you that you are eternally secure in this life outside of continually abiding in Christ. Stop abiding in Christ and faith--then faith dies and they fall from grace. If what you claim was true, then that would make the Apostle Paul's testimony false.

Jn.10:28 “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, no one shall snatch them out of my hand.”
Rom.6:23 “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Again--this is in reference to those who already died the first death and obtained eternal life and been resurrected in their perfected bodies.

Jn.3:18 “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jesus has already told us that belief alone won't get us there because many believe in Jesus--even the demons and the devil believe in Jesus and Jesus told them He never knew them. You are just cherry picking verses that seem to fit your belief here not reconciling these scriptures with the rest of the NT.

Jn.5:24 “He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” One is made spiritually alive by having true living faith.

Yes..."He that hears my word" as in those who understand how faith works and that are saved by grace and *through faith*. Faith is an action and a response to what the Holy Spirit is telling us to do--how to live--how to treat others and this all requires a *work* and *labor of love* on our parts in response to the HOly Spirit. Without these "works of faith"--and response in faith to what we're being called to do in Christ--you have no faith--it's dead until we repent again and again as we stumble. At some point if we remain in a fallen state for too long--we are indeed cut off. John 15:

John 15:1-8

15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.





Hebrews 6: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Romans 5 is all about eternal security.

Absolutely not--not in this life unless we "continually abide in Christ".


John 14:16

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;



John 15:4

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.



John 15:5

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.


John 15:6

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.



John 15:7

If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.



John 15:10

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

NOTE: In every single scripture the word "IF" is used--"IF" you abide in me and that it "MIGHT BE" or that it "MAY BE"--all conditional upon whether the believer will remain in faith or not. So you can not claim that anyone is "once saved always saved"--this is nothing short of a lie and unbiblical that the devil uses to rob the souls of those who believe they can live any way they choose ignoring the Holy Spirit and still obtain the kingdom of heaven.

Abiding in Christ means that we are commanded to live Holy Spiritual lives--Jesus didn't ask us to love one another and our neighbors--HE COMMANDED IT! These are His terms not ours or mine. Step out of faith and stop living a Holy acceptable life in Christ and you fall from faith and faith is then dead. God is patient for a time--stay in that fallen state for too long and only God knows the hearts of those who will not return to faith do the will of the Father--they are then cut off from the True Vine/Jesus. And yes--this is why we are told to fear only the Lord and to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling".

We are not supposed to sit back in some lazy complacent state of mind thinking that we are saved no matter how we live. Who could believe such a thing and that God would accept such evilness in the kingdom of heaven?

 

[Terry1]

As will I.

Therefore, when we want to identify what the true orthodox Church is, the proper way to do it is by letting the New Testament tell us.

Revelation 2:1

Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

John of Revelation who wrote on the island of Patmos, Greece tells us who the *keepers* are of the seven angels and the seven churches here. They are the "holders" or *keepers*. The Apostle Paul also confirms this church as being the "overseers of the world church of God" here:

Acts 20:
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over them which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

So then you have to ask yourself--*who are the wolves*?

Revelation 2 speaks of the "Seven letters to the seven churches"--- "first seven Ecumenical Councils" are as follows:

1.First Council of Nicaea (325)
2.First Council of Constantinople (381)
3.Council of Ephesus (431)
4.Council of Chalcedon (451)
5.Second Council of Constantinople (553)
6.Third Council of Constantinople (680)
7.Second Council of Nicaea (787)

Coincidence? I think not!

 

[erowe1]

You are correct that the NT should be our guide, including the parts about bishops, priests, and deacons.

Exactly. It's from the New Testament that we learn that "episkopos" and "presbuteros" are two words for the exact same office, not two different offices. It's from the New Testament that we learn that there is no need for an episkopos/presbuteros to be present for there to be a legitimate observation of the Lord's Supper. It's from the New Testament that we learn that churches can be founded without any bishops who can claim apostolic succession. It's from the New Testament that we learn a person's belonging to Christ's one true Church has nothing whatsoever to do with what any bishop has to say about it.

When individual human beings from later points in history contradict the above points, we can say with absolute certainty that they are claiming things that contradict the apostolic faith, and thus were not passed down by any oral tradition stretching back to the apostles.

 

[TER]

Erowe, you cannot separate the life of the Church like that. The Church started in the NT, and has been united through the Eucharist even as the Church.grew. You seem to misunderstand the early and apostolic place of the Bishop because of the way you perceive things as started in the NT. The Church is not a static entity, even as it's essential doctrines are firmly held. The Church is a dynamic entity contending in the world for the protection of the faithful through the guidance and power of the Holy Spirit. The experience of the Church living through time and it's relating to it has changed for the benefit of the faithful, but the unity in the Holy Eucharist and through the grace of Apostolic succession has never left the world, nor did it disappear to reappear centuries later as you might contend. The authority of the Church remains and is the pillar and foundation of the truth and the guardian of the faith.

You keep ignoring the central place of the Holy Eucharist in the process of this continuing life of the Church. The Church Fathers of the first three centuries make it abundantly clear how the Church has developed around the Holy Eucharist in one faith and as one body, and this involves the God anointed roles of the bishops as overseers (who too are priests), priest and deacons. The Orthodox Church can show its direct link down the ages via apostolic succession in unity around the Holy Eucharist. You may deny it, but then we would have to agree to disagree. There was one body of communing believers which the Church Fathers sought to be members of and receive the Holy Eucharist from. And this is the historical NT Church which is proven to be the Orthodox Church. One would have to blind themselves from the history of the early Church and only rely on the limited information listed in the book of Acts and Epistles to justify the position you are taking. But this is not right, as the Church did not disappear at any time in the world, and neither has the unity of mind, faith and spirit around the one Cup of salvation, namely the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[Terry1]

Under the OC, believers were saved by faith in God but by keeping the Law. Jesus' sacrifice was CREDITED to them, as it was still yet future.

Kevin, the word "covenant" means LAW. Under the Old Covenant--the old law of Moses, the Jews were cursed under that law of dead works for their failure to keep those laws perfectly and to the letter of them.

Under the New Covenant and LAW--we live by faith--meaning that the works we do now are done in response to what Jesus is telling us to do and how to live through His Holy Spirit. We still must *work and labor, but now under the NEW LAW of faith--what we do is not by ceremonial rituals. What we do now is done in a spontaneous reaction to the Holy Spirit of God.

You are confused about *which law* Paul and James are referring to when Paul tells you not to do works under the old law, but to do good works in faith under the New Law as referenced here:

Justified by Faith

21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


Acts 13:
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.


1 Thessalonians 1:3

Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;



2 Thessalonians 1:11

Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:


Examples of "works of faith":



Matthew 5:16

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


John 10:32

Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


Acts 9:36

Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


Romans 13:3

For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


Ephesians 2:10

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


1 Timothy 2:10

But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


1 Timothy 5:10

Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


1 Timothy 5:25

Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


1 Timothy 6:18

That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


2 Timothy 3:17

That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


Titus 2:7

In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


Titus 2:14

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


Titus 3:8

This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


Titus 3:14

And let our's also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


Hebrews 10:24

And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


1 Peter 2:12

Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

King James Version (KJV)

 

[Christian Liberty]

You are correct that the NT should be our guide, including the parts about bishops, priests, and deacons. But the NT is not a complete guide. We also have to look at the members of the body through the first generations and centuries, how they lived within this Church and passed the apostolic beliefs down for prosperity. The NT gives us the beginnings of the Church but it is the Church itself which gives wise to the workings of the Holy Spirit through it in the time since then. Taking the writings of the NT as the only source only gives part of the picture. If one studies the lives of the earliest Christian writers and saints (the Church Fathers), then they can begin to identify where this Church was and is today through the line of apostolic succession and Eucharistic unity. Many who do such a study come to realize that the Orthodox Church is indeed the Church which spiritually and physically is that Church of the New Testament.

The bishop* is not a Biblical office. Pastors and deacons are the only two Biblical offices. So, right there, your church organization is not ideal. Now, of course, I wouldn't say your church is a false church solely because of its organization (I make that claim on the basis of your church's sacramental theology and its denial of justification by faith alone) but it certainly proves that your church isn't "The" church.

*I understand that some translations use "bishop" but the point is the same. Bishop/pastor/elder is one office.

 

[TER]

As the Church has contended in the world and the threats against it, it formed by the guidance and power of the Holy Spirit, just as we see the beginnings of this playing out in the limited time frame described towards the end of the Bible. But while the NT is a reference and a guide, it is not the complete story and never was intended to be. It is the Church and the power of God bestowed upon it which strengthen and guides the Church through every epoch and era and gives the rest of the story, all around the anointed leaders of the Church and above all of the very body of Christ which gives it this physical and mystical unity.

 

[TER]

The bishop* is not a Biblical office. Pastors and deacons are the only two Biblical offices. So, right there, your church organization is not ideal. Now, of course, I wouldn't say your church is a false church solely because of its organization (I make that claim on the basis of your church's sacramental theology and its denial of justification by faith alone) but it certainly proves that your church isn't "The" church.

*I understand that some translations use "bishop" but the point is the same. Bishop/pastor/elder is one office.

All bishops have been priests but only a select few have been bishops and overseers of the priests in a specific geographical region. St. Peter was the first Bishop of Antioch and then later Rome. St. Mark the first Bishop of Alexandria. St. Lazarus the first Bishop of Cyprus. Etc, etc. Thus while the limited historical records in the NT may not express these truths, they are nevertheless the workings of the Holy Spirit within the life and experience of the Church.

 

[erowe1]

All bishops have been priests but only a select few have been bishops and overseers of the priests in a specific geographical region.

That is a later innovation and departure from what the apostles established. Originally the episkopos and the presbuteros were one and the same. There was no such thing as a presbuteros who was not an episkopos.

What you're presenting is not something the New Testament does not express, but something the New Testament positively contradicts. To believe what you're saying is to reject the tradition that has been passed down to Christ's one true orthodox holy catholic Church by the apostles and to replace it with something else.

We can go somewhat later than the NT as well. The Epistle from the Church in Rome to the Church in Corinth, commonly called First Clement, also treats the terms episkopos and presbuteros as complete synonyms. And when Ignatius of Antioch wrote his epistles, monarchical bishops over cities were a new development in Asia that had not yet made its way to Rome. So as of the early 2nd century at least, there still was no single bishop for all of Rome.

 

[erowe1]

The Church Fathers of the first three centuries make it abundantly clear how the Church has developed around the Holy Eucharist in one faith and as one body, and this involves the God anointed roles of the bishops as overseers (who too are priests), priest and deacons. The Orthodox Church can show its direct link down the ages via apostolic succession in unity around the Holy Eucharist.

I am familiar with writers in those centuries doing that. This began with Ignatius of Antioch. But this was a departure from the faith of the apostles. The apostles' own writings prove it.

 

[Terry1]

Part 2:

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to heavenlyboy34 again.

 

[lilymc]

Absolutely Lily. Basically because you stated that you disagreed with my opinion on *what saves* (without an explanation as to why you disagreed), and also your opinion of those who practice traditions in their church not consistent with what you believe. After that, my explanation sort of took on a life of it's own with one thing being closely associated with the other that I thought should also be included with my explanation to you. Hope this helps.

Terry, the reason I asked you what your real point was is because it almost seemed like your message was, "If you're not in the EO, and you disagree with what we believe, you better be careful because you might not be saved."

That's why I asked you to state what your actual point is, because I didn't want to assume, or read between the lines.

Also, you said, "...not consistent with what you believe." No, it's not about what I believe. I disagree with the EO based on their inconsistency with the scriptures.

I said this before, but I'll say it again. I care about what the Word of God says. I care about what JESUS says. I also use my God-given intuition, discernment, wisdom and common sense.

About a week and a half ago, I was unfamiliar with the EO church. In all my life, I've never met anyone (as far as I know) who was an EO member.

And now, after learning more about them and about what they teach, I have to be honest.... I'm truly amazed, and saddened at what I'm seeing. It's not just one or two doctrines, I'm seeing numerous doctrines that are simply unbiblical.

Not only that, but the overall emphasis on the earthy institution ("church"), religion, works, man-made traditions, and fallible human beings.

If you want to discuss salvation and eternal security, I would like to do that. A few of us did talk about that yesterday on this thread, but I think it's very important, so either we can talk about it here, or on a new thread.

Right now I have to get going, because the day is almost half over, and I haven't done the things I need to do. So I'll be back later!

 

[TER]

That is a later innovation and departure from what the apostles established. Originally the episkopos and the presbuteros were one and the same. There was no such thing as a presbuteros who was not an episkopos.

What you're presenting is not something the New Testament does not express, but something the New Testament positively contradicts. To believe what you're saying is to reject the tradition that has been passed down to Christ's one true orthodox holy catholic Church by the apostles and to replace it with something else.

We can go somewhat later than the NT as well. The Epistle from the Church in Rome to the Church in Corinth, commonly called First Clement, also treats the terms episkopos and presbuteros as complete synonyms. And when Ignatius of Antioch wrote his epistles, monarchical bishops over cities were a new development in Asia that had not yet made its way to Rome. So as of the early 2nd century at least, there still was no single bishop for all of Rome.

Erowe, can you tell me when the 'later innovations' of the bishops as heads of areas begins?

 

[TER]

Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

This was written within a few generations of the Day of Pentecost, just a few years after the death of the last of the 12 great Apostles. When he wrote this and expressed the orthodox and catholic faith which had been spread everywhere by these same Apostles, people were still living who had been alive when Jesus Christ died on the cross. (let that sink in for a moment). You say what this man wrote above was a 'later' innovation? My, you are quite the judge of the Holy Spirit and these saints! They do not live up to your standards! And what are your standards? What have you made the pillar and foundation of the truth? The New Testament, which didn't even exist as we have it today? Which only included the first few years of the infancy of the Church, indeed the formative years? But better yet, your own mind has become the decider of what is true and what the fullness of truth is! So to make you right and appease your mind, the Saints who were instructed by the very Apostles were in error and you 2000 years later are right? Wow! I didn't know the Church dissolved and fell into such great heresy so quickly! And I didn't know you were such a great and holy saint and new prophet! Had they only had you to explain to them what it meant to be a Christian and what the Apostles taught, the Church would have never fallen and the Holy Spirit fail so miserably!

This worship and misuse of the Scriptures which is the great heresy of these days insults the Holy Spirit and the saints whom the Holy Spirit worked through and guided 'into all truths'. It belittles the trials and tribulations these martyrs contended with in order to pass down the very books which people now misuse. As if we were made to become librarians instead of members of His Church which has ALWAYS been the part of the Christian goal (indeed, a basis of our very soteriology) from the first days until now.

The above quote was written by St. Ignatius who was a student of St. John the Apostle. He became the third Bishop of Antioch. First was St. Peter, who succeeded the episcopy to St. Evodius (who was one of the 72 Apostles sent by Christ, until 69 AD when he died). Then St. Ignatius was chosen by St. Peter and anointed by the Holy Spirit to take Evodius' place.

When he said the above to them, where was there a large outcry? Did the thousands and tens of thousands of people spread hundreds and thousands of miles away revolt to such words which you consider wrong and heretical? In fact the people in far away Alexanderia and the people in Rome and the people in Jerusalem (people who lived in those apostloic times) gladly and wholeheartedly confessed the same thing, which is the reason why they called him a Saint and to this day have passed down his letters! He did not start some new teaching, or some new church! He was in fact in the same catholic Church spread far and wide which shared in the same faith and cup around the Holy Eucharist! St. Ignatius was only saying what the reality was, how the Holy Spirit formed the Church in the world, which is described in only it's very beginnings in the pages of Acts. You sorely misunderstand the Church simply because it is more convenient for you to stop at the last page of Acts and not have to submit yourself to anything or anyone apart from your own image of God and Christianity. But I refuse to make my fallible mind to be the decider of what is true and less am I inclined to deny the Holy Spirit working in the Church and in these great men and women who established it and defended it, all to the glory of God.

I am sorry if this was a pointed post. I am trying to shake you out of this delusion you have which is that you know more about what it means to be a Christian and to be a member of His Church then all the apostolic fathers and martyrs and saints.

 

[Kevin007]

The body of Christ (believers) is not the Church.

http://carm.org/church

 

[Kevin007]

Matthew 7:21-23

I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

this isn't talking about Believer's losing salvation. The context is false teachers.

 

[Terry1]

http://carm.org/church

That site is pure undiluted Calvinism.