Mary the Queen of Heaven

[TER]

I'm especially fond of the vocal text settings. Often hymnographers quote directly from scripture. That orthodox music is always a capella focuses the listeners mind on the text better than the accompanied songs/chorales/hymns of the West. Indeed, just attending liturgy one can absorb a great deal of the Gospels by listening with focus!

So true. In fact the earliest methods of teaching and expressing the beliefs and doctrines of the Church, even before the New Testament was written, is found in the hymnology of the Church used in the liturgical worship. Thus, the two great legs of Holy Tradition constitute the written tradition such as the Holy Scriptures and the oral traditions such as the hymns and liturgical worship. Running the race with one leg doesn't mean one cannot finish the race, but how much more wonderful and enjoyable to have both legs to run with!

 

[pcosmar]

I am very careful not to chalk things up to me 'being in the Holy Spirit' or assert the cause as the Holy Spirit working in me knowing how great a sinner I am and how often times I have been wrong. I have plenty of spirits, including pride, which seek to destroy me.

there is no spirit that can stand against us that can prevail.
I posted scripture,, and you post the opinion of men.. And then question "my interpretation " when you neither know nor can articulate what my interpretation is.

If someone thinks that the Virgin was just simply a nobody who God choose to be born from

I have never said anything , nor have I ever implied anything like that.
She was a daughter of Eve,, offspring of Adam,, from the line of David. She was devout and loved God.
And she is one of the great many daughters of Eve who have been obedient to God. I have nothing but respect for her,, As I do the great men of the Bible.

But I don't bow down before their statues.

With you my friend, the question is not whether you will get into Heaven or not (that is up to God to decide), the question is why look for what is only sufficient and not seek out the fullness of the faith?

That is what I'm doing. And looking into some of those older and lost books.
Though I think there is still something in Job that I am not seeing yet.. (but that is just a "feeling" I get)

Not to say you have not experienced such moments of blessedness and peace and illumination, but I assure you that there is always more to gain, even in this life.

one point I remember is where I was when I first believed. The rest has he been a long strange trip,, but it has it's moments.

 

[TER]

there is no spirit that can stand against us that can prevail.

If only that was true my friend. Greater men then you and me have fallen on account of evil spirits. We shouldn't be so sure we wouldn't or won't. But I think your point is that the Holy Spirit is Lord over all spirits, and that is true. If Christ is with us, who can be against us! (actually, a whole army of demons. But thank the Lord they are rendered powerless by Him, even by the image of the cross.)

I posted scripture,, and you post the opinion of men.. And then question "my interpretation " when you neither know nor can articulate what my interpretation is.

I question those interpretations that you have expressed which run against the teachings of the saints. It is the posting of your interpretations of the Scriptures that I am challenging, not the Scriptures in themselves.

I have never said anything , nor have I ever implied anything like that.
She was a daughter of Eve,, of spring of Adam,, from the line of David. She was devout and loved God.
And she is one of the great many daughters of Eve who have been obedient to God. I have nothing but respect for her,, As I do the great men of the Bible.

I did not mean to imply that you do not honor the Virgin Mary. I was saying that some Christians do not regard her much at all (even though she is the greatest saint) but it may have came out in my post to appear to be directed at you. Forgive me, it wasn't directed at you. I think you have a good and healthy respect for the Mother of our Lord.

But I don't bow down before their statues.

I don't either. But I do bow down to the one whose image they represent! Sometimes I don't need a visual stimulus, and I create an image of Christ in my own mind and then bow down. Other times, I need a reminder, and that is how these works of religious art assist in me in my worship and prayer life.

BTW, do you know that Joshua the Righteous from the Old Testament and all the elders bowed down before the Ark of the Covenant (Joshua 7:6). And that had statues of Cherubim on it!

That is what I'm doing. And looking into some of those older and lost books.
Though I think there is still something in Job that I am not seeing yet.. (but that is just a "feeling" I get)

I know you are, and that is why I enjoy discussing these things with you because you are not close minded but wish to seek deeper.

As for the Book of Job, I suggest this book to you. I have the complete series for the New Testament but haven't started yet on the Old (the books are not cheap!) I think you might find some answers in there you were looking for and some confirmation of your own beliefs of the book.

one point I remember is where I was when I first believed. The rest has he been a long strange trip,, but it has it's moments.

I wish one day we could sit down together, have a beer (or whatever your poison is!), and you could share with me those moments. The Lord does work in great and mysterious ways!

 

[pcosmar]

I know you are, and that is why I enjoy discussing these things with you because you are not close minded but wish to seek deeper.

As for the Book of Job,

I think you might find some answers in there you were looking for and some confirmation of your own beliefs of the book.



I wish one day we could sit down together, have a beer (or whatever your poison is!), and you could share with me those moments. The Lord does work in great and mysterious ways!

Confirmation of my own beliefs?
I am not looking for confirmation. Some insights perhaps. Understanding of some of the deeper things. Not Confirmation.
I have been stuck in Job for some time,, and learned much,, I just have a gut feeling there is something else He wants me to see, (just a gut feeling)

Yeah I would have a beer with ya,, and talk about the Nature of God and Man.
Not sure how much time is left,,

 

[TER]

Confirmation of my own beliefs?
I am not looking for confirmation. Some insights perhaps. Understanding of some of the deeper things. Not Confirmation.

Yeah I would have a beer with ya,, and talk about the Nature of God and Man.
Not sure how much time is left,,

Well, if not in this life, then hopefully the next.

That is unless you throw that RPF barbeque party which has been mentioned before and rumored about. Last head count I got was about 5 bands, a few kegs, and something about pies. If Rand Paul wins the general, will you have no excuse not to host it!

 

[pcosmar]

Well, if not in this life, then hopefully the next.

That is unless you throw that RPF barbeque party which has been mentioned before and rumored about. Last head count I got was about 5 bands, a few kegs, and something about pies. If Rand Paul wins the general, will you have no excuse not to host it!

My farm is available,, I'm not sure of any actual arrangements that have ever been made..

I would love to have this whole motley crew over for a week.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

If only that was true my friend. Greater men then you and me have fallen on account of evil spirits. We shouldn't be so sure we wouldn't or won't. But I think your point is that the Holy Spirit is Lord over all spirits, and that is true. If Christ is with us, who can be against us! (actually, a whole army of demons. But thank the Lord they are rendered powerless by Him, even by the image of the cross.)



I question those interpretations that you have expressed which run against the teachings of the saints. It is the posting of your interpretations of the Scriptures that I am challenging, not the Scriptures in themselves.



I did not mean to imply that you do not honor the Virgin Mary. I was saying that some Christians do not regard her much at all (even though she is the greatest saint) but it may have came out in my post to appear to be directed at you. Forgive me, it wasn't directed at you. I think you have a good and healthy respect for the Mother of our Lord.



I don't either. But I do bow down to the one whose image they represent! Sometimes I don't need a visual stimulus, and I create an image of Christ in my own mind and then bow down. Other times, I need a reminder, and that is how these works of religious art assist in me in my worship and prayer life.

BTW, do you know that Joshua the Righteous from the Old Testament and all the elders bowed down before the Ark of the Covenant (Joshua 7:6). And that had statues of Cherubim on it!



I know you are, and that is why I enjoy discussing these things with you because you are not close minded but wish to seek deeper.

As for the Book of Job, I suggest this book to you. I have the complete series for the New Testament but haven't started yet on the Old (the books are not cheap!) I think you might find some answers in there you were looking for and some confirmation of your own beliefs of the book.



I wish one day we could sit down together, have a beer (or whatever your poison is!), and you could share with me those moments. The Lord does work in great and mysterious ways!

The most apt explanation of veneration of icons I've heard is to think of them like pictures of long passed loved ones. You may look at the picture with strong feelings and memories-perhaps even kiss it or shed tears-but the pictoral image is clearly not the person(s) in the picture, and you wouldn't think of it as such.

 

[TER]

Just ran across this story about a rocket which struck a Church in eastern Ukraine in front of an image of Christ and did not explode. The rocket looks like it is 'bowing' before the image of the Lord. Of course, this is probably just a dud of a rocket landing in an interesting place, but one never knows!

Porphyry D. Staphyla
August 17, 2014
Dimpe News

On the night of the 16th into the 17th of August, the Church of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul in the town of Mospyne in the region of Dontesk was hit by a rocket 1.5 meters in length by a Grad missile launcher. It entered the church after a strange orbit.

It entered through the window, shattering the glass and throwing to the ground the vase of flowers placed at the veneration icon of the Pantocrator Christ.

The Ukrainian missile was literally pinned to the ground and didn't explode. It remained kneeling before the superiority of the Pantocrator Christ and it was literally made His "footstool". It caused minor damage and a fire was prevented. Immediately after the church celebrated.

 

[WBFU3411]

This is idolatry, plain and simple.

 

[TER]

This is idolatry, plain and simple.

No, this is love and adoration.

 

[WBFU3411]

No, this is love and adoration.

But the Bible says that we can't pray to anyone but God. We are only supposed to worship God and prayer = worship.

 

[TER]

To pray means to ask or petition. It does not necessarily mean to worship.

For example, this is from Merriam dictionary:

transitive verb

1 : entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful> 2 : to get or bring by praying


intransitive verb

1 : to make a request in a humble manner 2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

 

[WBFU3411]

To pray means to ask or petition. It does not necessarily mean to worship. For example, this is from Merriam dictionary:transitive verb1 : entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea
2 : to get or bring by prayingintransitive verb1 : to make a request in a humble manner 2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

The Bible says we shouldn't speak to dead people. It's not like they can hear us.

 

[TER]

The Bible says we shouldn't speak to dead people. It's not like they can hear us.

The part of the bible which your copy is missing but what has always been used by the Christians and held as authoritative does indeed have praying for the dead and the intercession of the saints (2 Maccabees in particular). According to Christian theology revealed by Christ, the dead are alive to God. How the departed saints can hear us is a mystery of the Holy Spirit. Nevertheless, it has been standard and apostolic teachings and practice to all three of the Churches which can trace themselves back to the Apostles, namely the Orthodox, Coptic, and Roman Catholic Churches. It wasn't until the times of the reformers when it was questioned or considered unbiblical or wrong.

 

[pcosmar]

Prayer means to ask or petition. It does not necessarily mean to worship.

For example, this is from Merriam dictionary:

transitive verb
1 : entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea <pray be careful> 2 : to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1 : to make a request in a humble manner 2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

Prayer and Worship are two different things.. but they often do go hand in hand.

But though I do not condemn,, I have no interest in graven images. People do have a habit of such,, all the way back to the Israelite making a calf, while Moses was talking to God.
And through history worshiping in groves,, and every other culture did the same,, and is recorded as archeological evidence.

God said don't do it. But people still want to and will try to justify it in any way they can.

You shall not make unto yourself any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

So watch yourselves carefully, since you did not see any form on the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire, so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the sky,…

And that requires no "interpretation".

In fact it requires a lot of interpretation to ignore it.

 

[WBFU3411]

The part of the bible which your copy is missing but what has always been used by the Christians and held as authoritative does indeed have praying for the dead and the intercession of the saints (2 Maccabees in particular). According to Christian theology revealed by Christ, the dead are alive to God. How the departed saints can hear us is a mystery of the Holy Spirit. Nevertheless, it has been standard and apostolic teachings and practice to all three of the Churches which can trace themselves back to the Apostles, namely the Orthodox, Coptic, and Roman Catholic Churches. It wasn't until the times of the reformers when it was questioned or considered unbiblical or wrong.

My Bible isn't missing anything. It comes straight from the Masoretic text written by the Jews themselves as well as the Greek New Testament.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

This is idolatry, plain and simple.

Do you idolize pictures of people that are important to you in your life? (family, friends, etc) Not likely. Likewise, icons are not idolized. Icons are our spiritual family photo album.

 

[TER]

Prayer and Worship are two different things.. but they often do go hand in hand.

But though I do not condemn,, I have no interest in graven images. People do have a habit of such,, all the way back to the Israelite making a calf, while Moses was talking to God.
And through history worshiping in groves,, and every other culture did the same,, and is recorded as archeological evidence.

God said don't do it. But people still want to and will try to justify it in any way they can.




And that requires no "interpretation".

In fact it requires a lot of interpretation to ignore it.

Do you condemn Joshua and the elders of Israel for bowing down in worship before the Ark?

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Prayer and Worship are two different things.. but they often do go hand in hand.

But though I do not condemn,, I have no interest in graven images. People do have a habit of such,, all the way back to the Israelite making a calf, while Moses was talking to God.
And through history worshiping in groves,, and every other culture did the same,, and is recorded as archeological evidence.

God said don't do it. But people still want to and will try to justify it in any way they can.

Non-sequitur. The Ancient Israelites worshiped the Golden Calf. Icons are not objects of worship.

Now when the people saw that Moses delayed coming down from the mountain, the people gathered against Aaron and said to him, Rise up and make us gods that shall go before us. [...] (Aaron) said, "these are your gods, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt. So when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it.

And that requires no "interpretation".

In fact it requires a lot of interpretation to ignore it.

You will never, ever find Orthodox literature or living people treating icons as such at all. Clearly it does need interpretation, as you don't understand it.

See also this thread on the iconoclast heresy- http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?450767-Iconoclasm-The-Heresy-of-Heresies&highlight=icons
This one on idolatry- http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...d-what-is-the-act-of-idolatry&highlight=icons
This one discussing why icons are not idols- http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?432958-Icons-are-not-idols

As an aside, here's one about Masoretic v. Septuagint texts- http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...agint-Guns-Lies-and-Forgeries&highlight=icons

 

[heavenlyboy34]

My Bible isn't missing anything. It comes straight from the Masoretic text written by the Jews themselves as well as the Greek New Testament.

If your bible lacks the Apocrypha and Deutero-canon, it's lacking a LOT. ~10 whole books, depending on exactly which bible you have.