Mary the Queen of Heaven

[heavenlyboy34]

I just quickly read that, and it looks like pcosmar is right. Joshua was bowing before God Himself. The ark was His throne. It is obvious that Joshua was actually bowing before God, because in verse 10 God speaks directly to Joshua.

I don't see how that example has anything to do with the idolatry that has been brought up on this thread. Or am I missing something?

Non-sequitur. You have to read an awful lot into that passage to get that. It is clear that God is speaking to Joshua, but it is not clear that Joshua is bowing to God there. It is more likely in this context that Joshua was bowing to the ark. (God the Father only made himself visible to Moses)

 

[pcosmar]

Was God in the Ark?

NO. But it was His Throne.. God specifically commanded the Ark be built,, and very specific rules about it.
It was not a "likeness" of God.

It was his Physical Throne among the people.
It was his presence.
They were not worshiping the cherubim or the box. They were worshiping God in His direct presence.

 

[TER]

NO. But it was His Throne.. God specifically commanded the Ark be built,, and very specific rules about it.
It was not a "likeness" of God.

It was his Physical Throne among the people.
It was his presence.
They were not worshiping the cherubim or the box. They were worshiping God in His direct presence.

Which is exactly what a Christian does when they worship God standing before an icon of Christ.

But when you say God was present in the Ark, what do you mean? Was He present or not?

 

[lilymc]

Was God in the Ark?

Exodus 25:22

Does that answer your question?

 

[TER]

Exodus 25:22

Does that answer your question?

It answers my question, but I don't know what your interpretation is unless you tell me. Was God present in the Ark?

 

[lilymc]

It was his Physical Throne among the people.
It was his presence.
They were not worshiping the cherubim or the box. They were worshiping God in His direct presence.

^ This.

 

[TER]

^ This.

Can either answer my question directly? Was God present in the Ark?

 

[lilymc]

It answers my question, but I don't know what your interpretation is unless you tell me. Was God present in the Ark?

The scripture couldn't be more clear. It was the place where God would meet with them.

That doesn't necessarily mean that God was always with the ark. But the important point is that in the scripture you posted, they were speaking to GOD, they were worshipping GOD, not the ark!

 

[TER]

The scripture couldn't be more clear. It was the place where God would meet with them.

That doesn't necessarily mean that God was always with the ark. But the important point is that in the scripture you posted, they were speaking to GOD, they were worshipping GOD, not the ark!

Lilly, I am not arguing with you that Joshua was worshiping the ark and not God. We are in agreement. Joshua was bowing down before the ark but worshiping God.

According to Jewish and Christian theology, when they say it was the meeting place and the presence of God, it means that God was really present in the Ark. Not that the Ark could contain the uncontainable God but that His very presence was in there. Can we agree on this?

 

[lilymc]

Lilly, I am not arguing with you that Joshua was worshiping the ark and not God. We are in agreement. Joshua was bowing down before the ark but worshiping God.

According to Jewish and Christian theology, when they say it was the meeting place and the presence of God, it means that God was really present in the Ark. Not that the Ark could contain the uncontainable God but that His very presence was in there. Can we agree on this?

I wouldn't word it that way, but yes, of course God's presence was really there when He would meet with His people. That's what that Exodus scripture I posted said.

So I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. What does any of this have to do with the idolatry brought up on this thread?

Do you believe that Mary is actually there - present in those statues that people are worshipping?

And do you actually agree with worshipping Mary (statue or no statue)? Because THAT is what is going on, worldwide.

 

[TER]

Let us take this one point at a time.

You agree then with the Scriptures (Exodus 25:8 "and let them make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell in their midst"), you agree with the Jewish scholars and the Church Fathers that God was indeed present in the ark.

Now, was God present in the womb of the Virgin Mary?

 

[RJB]

Which is exactly what a Christian does when they worship God standing before an icon of Christ.

Somehow they keep ignoring this point TER.

I've notice people have a tendency to want to believe the worst of their neighbors rather than taking them at their word. That accounts for most of the drama in the religion forum.

* No we don't worship saints.

* No we don't worship art work of the family albums of our brothers and sisters in Christ.

* Worship is reserved for one God alone in the mystery of the Trinity.

PERIOD!

 

[lilymc]

Let us take this one point at a time.

You agree then with the Scriptures (Exodus 25:8 "and let them make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell in their midst"), you agree with the Jewish scholars and the Church Fathers that God was indeed present in the ark.

Now, was God present in the womb of the Virgin Mary?

With all due respect, this is not the way I like to discuss things. I'm much more of a get to the point kind of person. (besides, I shouldn't even be here right now, I've got work I need to do)

What is your point? How are you comparing Joshua bowing down before God, to people worshipping statues or paintings of Mary? (I've asked that a few times now. Please answer.)

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Somehow they keep ignoring this point TER.

I've notice people have a tendency to want to believe the worst of their neighbors rather than taking them at their word. That accounts for most of the drama in the religion forum.

* No we don't worship saints.

* No we don't worship art work of the family albums of our brothers and sisters in Christ.

* Worship is reserved for one God alone in the mystery of the Trinity.

PERIOD!

You'd think this would only need to be explained once...but people keep trying to bring these up over and over and over. /facepalm

 

[lilymc]

You'd think this would only need to be explained once...but people keep trying to bring these up over and over and over. /facepalm

I take you guys at your word. No one here (as far as I have seen) has stated that you guys are Mary worshippers.

But it IS happening in many places in the world. That is demonstrably true. That is what has been brought up on this thread (see the video I posted) not about you guys here at RPF.

 

[TER]

With all due respect, this is not the way I like to discuss things. I'm much more of a get to the point kind of person. (besides, I shouldn't even be here right now, I've got work I need to do)

What is your point? How are you comparing Joshua bowing down before God, to people worshipping statues or paintings of Mary? (I've asked that a few times now. Please answer.)

This is called a dialogue, which is actually a great way to understand one another better. My eventual point needs unpacking, and this is what I am doing here. Please bear with me because while this might seem the long way around, I am indeed answering your question.

Was God present in the womb of the Virgin?

 

[heavenlyboy34]

This is called a dialogue, which is actually a great way to understand one another better. My eventual point needs unpacking, and this is what I am doing here. Please bear with me because while this might seem the long way around, I am indeed answering your question.

Was God present in the womb of the Virgin?

Indeed! In fact, this thread is playing out basically the way a formal debate would-which is pretty impressive considering how rowdy the internetz tend to be.

 

[TER]

Indeed! In fact, this thread is playing out basically the way a formal debate would-which is pretty impressive considering how rowdy the internetz tend to be.

I agree and I wish to thank those who have posted and those who haven't, allowing this to develop into a fruitful discussion about the wonders God has done.

Lilly is out doing work, but I look forward to hearing from her soon.

In the meanwhile, I remind everyone the point of the OP, and reiterate something written from there:

The Ark of the Covenant had some impressive contents:

• Moses’ two stone tablets of the Ten Commandments
• A jar of manna from the wilderness
• Aaron’s staff which had budded with life

Mary herself being the new Ark of the Covenant, she contained the fulfillment of all these things:

• Instead of God’s Word written in stone,
  Mary’s womb contained the Word made flesh
• Instead of manna from the wilderness,
  Mary’s womb contained the Manna from Heaven and Bread of Life
• Instead of a staff from the first Levitical high priest, Mary’s womb contained the great High Priest himself, Jesus Christ, whose priesthood is after the order of Melchizedek
• Instead of a budded staff symbolizing resurrection, Mary’s womb contained the Resurrection and the Life himself.

 

[pcosmar]

As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the LORD, we will not hearken unto thee.

But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.

And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?

Then Jeremiah said unto all the people, to the men, and to the women, and to all the people which had given him that answer, saying,

The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, ye, and your fathers, your kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the LORD remember them, and came it not into his mind?

So that the LORD could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, and because of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day.

Because ye have burned incense, and because ye have sinned against the LORD, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, nor walked in his law, nor in his statutes, nor in his testimonies; therefore this evil is happened unto you, as at this day.

Very Old Error.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_heaven_(antiquity)

http://www.churchsupplies.com/store/monastery-incense-queen-of-heaven-865.shtml

God said.
DON'T DO IT.

I don't care how long the error has persisted. It is Error.
And Plain scripture and the Direct command from God, trump all the Men who have come since.

 

[TER]

My friend, Joshua was correct in what he said and God was right to be angry, because the person they burned incense to was NOT the Queen of Heaven. For there is only ONE Queen of Heaven, and she is the Holy Theotokos. So in time it was proper for God to reveal this. The Virgin Mary is what the ancient Babylonians (and many other religions) awaited and anticipated and prayer for. The same for Israel. She is the fulfillment of the Ark of the Covenant which was a prefiguring of her and the Burning Bush which contained the Divine Word and was not consumed. Hers is the very living flesh of Christ, the Flesh which has redeemed our own flesh and restored us, for God first gave it to her and in perfect obedience, she offered it freely back to Him. This is fundamental eucharistic love (thanksgiving) which underlies the entire message of Jesus Christ.

Those ancient types found in basically every religion, they all find their fullness within the Christian faith, for there is One God and One Savior and through Him our kind and this creation finds salvation. But in man's yearning for truth, there will be prototypes and symbols along the way. This is only natural, after all there is so much we do not know, so limited is the human brain, that we see through a glass darkly as the Apostle said. How much more was this the case before the Light of God had entered into the world and revealed our Father in Heaven? The images and types of Christ and our salvation is found in degrees in every human yearning for divinity and eternal life.

Do not let the similarities between Christianity and more ancient faiths be a cause for worry and concern. Rather, it should only more strongly show He indeed is the God of all.