Mancow Muller, gets waterboarded and says "it is absolutely torture"

[Objectivist]

YOu've been brainwashed people, by the system. This country has never played by the "rules" in any war at any time. SO the "rules" that you seem to think we should live up to are bullshit, and it takes a level of brutality to keep my country safe and you have a wimpish attitude to think otherwise. We've been playing dirty tricks and black bag jobs from the beginning, so deal with it, or enemies don't give a damn about rules or they would have sent a declaration of war memo to the Pentagon to let us know when the war was starting.

 

[ClayTrainor]

YOu've been brainwashed people, by the system.

If i had a nickel for every time i heard that, on this forum....

So obviously Ron Paul is brainwashed too...

This country has never played by the "rules" in any war at any time.

No shit, that doesn't justify your point.

Hitler didn't play by the "rules" either, and i'm sure he would've LOVED your philosophy on torture.

SO the "rules" that you seem to think we should live up to are bullshit,

It's called morality, not rules.

Ever heard of "The Higher Ground"?

and it takes a level of brutality to keep my country safe and you have a wimpish attitude to think otherwise.

Waterboarding and other forms of torture won't keep you safe, and you're foolish to think otherwise. Nothing but lies, and bad publicity has come from the torture by the Modern US Empire.

Techonology, and a strong military are a must, but advocating the use of torture to keep you safe has made me question your ability to use reason. I have a fondness for Ayn Rand's perspectives, but she was WAYYYYYYYYYY too militaristic.

We've been playing dirty tricks and black bag jobs from the beginning, so deal with it, or enemies don't give a damn about rules or they would have sent a declaration of war memo to the Pentagon to let us know when the war was starting.

And you have once again proven why Neo-Cons tend to love Ayn Rand.

WAY too militaristic, and not even sensibly.

Haven't you figured it out yet? This isn't a war, these are occupations, bro. I'm guessing you're totally cool with the UN resolutions as well? No need to declare war through congress? I guess we can just ditch all 'rules' since we're at war right? No need for a constitution, lets make the patriot act stronger too. Rules should be ignored in times of war, right?

 

[Objectivist]

If i had a nickel for every time i heard that, on this forum....

So obviously Ron Paul is brainwashed too...


No shit, that doesn't justify your point.

Hitler didn't play by the "rules" either, and i'm sure he would've LOVED your philosophy on torture.



It's called morality, not rules.

Ever heard of "The Higher Ground"?



Waterboarding and other forms of torture won't keep you safe, and you're foolish to think otherwise. Nothing but lies, and bad publicity has come from the torture by the Modern US Empire.

Techonology, and a strong military are a must, but advocating the use of torture to keep you safe has made me question your ability to use reason. I have a fondness for Ayn Rand's perspectives, but she was WAYYYYYYYYYY too militaristic.



And you have once again proven why Neo-Cons tend to love Ayn Rand.

WAY too militaristic, and not even sensibly.

Haven't you figured it out yet? This isn't a war, these are occupations, bro. I'm guessing you're totally cool with the UN resolutions as well? No need to declare war through congress? I guess we can just ditch all 'rules' since we're at war right? No need for a constitution, lets make the patriot act stronger too. Rules should be ignored in times of war, right?

YOu lost the debate when you tried to associate me with Neo-Cons, I'm nowhere near a Neo-Con.

Why don't you tell us what exactly will you gain by not water boarding? Nothing, but at least you can feel good about yourself and be relieved of any unfounded guilt you may have. SOunds like you're carrying a bag of bricks(guilt), maybe you should drop that bag and do the right thing.

My position on being In Iraq and Afghanistan.... We shouldn't be there, never should have gone. Then you're switching the debate to a different subject so you lose, but that's my response and if you'd like we can argue the merits of being there now that it's happened, I didn't want it to happen but a dead Saddam makes me happy. Should have drilled the hell out of ANWR and gave the Kuwaitis the finger too, we should have been building 500 nuclear power plants and produced Hydrogen Fuel in off peak hours to fuel busses and trucks, or drilled for the vast Natural Gas reserves and switched off of gasoline years ago. Gee not a Neo-con platform item in the bunch, at least they haven't backed any of these in the real world as far as I've seen.

 

[ClayTrainor]

YOu lost the debate when you tried to associate me with Neo-Cons, I'm nowhere near a Neo-Con.

Oh great, another self-declared debate winner

Do you refer to yourself as Ayn Rand? Neo-Cons love several of her militaritic positions, that is fact. I don't think you're a neo-con at all, nor do i think Ayn Rand was. I think there are certain things, that neo-cons tend to love about Ayn Rand, that was my point that you took a bit out of context.

You simply proved to me why that is, with your "No rules, in war" position, and your senseless advocation of torture.

Why don't you tell us what exactly will you gain by not water boarding? Nothing, but at least you can feel good about yourself and be relieved of any unfounded guilt you may have. SOunds like you're carrying a bag of bricks(guilt), maybe you should drop that bag and do the right thing.

This is just flatout stupid...

I'm against the holocaust too. I don't really give a shit, personally, about Jews, Israel, Poland, or any of them, but it was obvious that the holocaust is wrong. It doesn't make me feel good about myself to say it, but i still stand by it. Same goes for torture... it's fucking wrong, and those who endorse it, have a screw loose, in my opinion.

My position on being In Iraq and Afghanistan.... We shouldn't be there, never should have gone.

Agreed, except i had no problem with them going in to catch Bin Laden and co.

Then you're switching the debate to a different subject so you lose

You've declared victory for yourself twice now

, but that's my response and if you'd like we can argue the merits of being there now that it's happened, I didn't want it to happen but a dead Saddam makes me happy.

Sadaam was a scumbag, but his Iraq was more stable than the current version, and i think you'll agree.

I'd also like to see bush and cheney jump off a platform with a rope around their necks, but that's just me.

My position on being In Iraq and Afghanistan.... We shouldn't be there, never should have gone. Then you're switching the debate to a different subject so you lose, but that's my response and if you'd like we can argue the merits of being there now that it's happened, I didn't want it to happen but a dead Saddam makes me happy. Should have drilled the hell out of ANWR and gave the Kuwaitis the finger too, we should have been building 500 nuclear power plants and produced Hydrogen Fuel in off peak hours to fuel busses and trucks, or drilled for the vast Natural Gas reserves and switched off of gasoline years ago. Gee not a Neo-con platform item in the bunch, at least they haven't backed any of these in the real world as far as I've seen.

If you want to use the US Military to secure these positions, than yes, that is pure neo-con. Their resources are their own, and you have no right to them, unless they are willing to sell them to you.

 

[sailor]

you've been brainwashed people, by the system. This country has never played by the "rules" in any war at any time. So the "rules" that you seem to think we should live up to are bullshit, and it takes a level of brutality to keep my country safe and you have a wimpish attitude to think otherwise. We've been playing dirty tricks and black bag jobs from the beginning, so deal with it, or enemies don't give a damn about rules or they would have sent a declaration of war memo to the pentagon to let us know when the war was starting.

Yummie.

 

[NoMoreFed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruel_and_unusual_punishment

 

[AgentOrange]

Undoubtedly some people have a higher pain tolerance or threshhold than others, so there will be different individual perceptions on what a person perceives as "torture". I think it's quite telling that this guy who thought waterboarding was no big deal, is quick to call it torture after a mild form was done to him. Are there actually any proponents of waterboarding that have had it done to them?

And, As other's have mentioned it is the psychological component that plays a major part in making someone feel like they are being tortured.

Frankly, I had a bad labor that I would classify as torture (esp in comparision to previous labor)...but I survived and would volunteer again for it. It's that psychological aspect that makes that experience from being a totally unbearable torture to something I would sign up for again.

It's impossible to replicate the real feelings behind torture when the volunteer knows they can walk out at any moment.

 

[krazy kaju]

How could you compare waterboarding to torture if you never were tortured before? Would Muller say that sleep deprivation is torture?

 

[NoMoreFed]

How about Mancow volunteering to do it 6 times a day for a month? Maybe then we wouldn't need the psychological argument.

 

[Objectivist]

Oh great, another self-declared debate winner

Do you refer to yourself as Ayn Rand? Neo-Cons love several of her militaritic positions, that is fact. I don't think you're a neo-con at all, nor do i think Ayn Rand was. I think there are certain things, that neo-cons tend to love about Ayn Rand, that was my point that you took a bit out of context.

You simply proved to me why that is, with your "No rules, in war" position, and your senseless advocation of torture.


This is just flatout stupid...

I'm against the holocaust too. I don't really give a shit, personally, about Jews, Israel, Poland, or any of them, but it was obvious that the holocaust is wrong. It doesn't make me feel good about myself to say it, but i still stand by it. Same goes for torture... it's fucking wrong, and those who endorse it, have a screw loose, in my opinion.



Agreed, except i had no problem with them going in to catch Bin Laden and co.



You've declared victory for yourself twice now



Sadaam was a scumbag, but his Iraq was more stable than the current version, and i think you'll agree.

I'd also like to see bush and cheney jump off a platform with a rope around their necks, but that's just me.



If you want to use the US Military to secure these positions, than yes, that is pure neo-con. Their resources are their own, and you have no right to them, unless they are willing to sell them to you.

Easy to declare victory when you keep diverting and changing the subject, the Holocaust? How the fuck does that relate to the enemies of my country trying to murder innocent Americans? How does that relate to pouring wasser on their heads to get them with the program? Oh, so if if a neo-con has ascribed to one of Ayn Rands ideals it makes me a neocon? Please. Retarded people pick their noses and wipe their asses, does that make you a retarded person?I hope not, because I'd be wasting my time with you.

On Osama bin Laden, WHY are we after him? What exactly did he do on 9/11? Nothing, he was half way around the world sitting in another country minding his business, which by the way wasn't flying jets into buildings.

I've cheered when people have committed crimes, does that make me guilty of committing a crime?

 

[Objectivist]

Undoubtedly some people have a higher pain tolerance or threshhold than others, so there will be different individual perceptions on what a person perceives as "torture". I think it's quite telling that this guy who thought waterboarding was no big deal, is quick to call it torture after a mild form was done to him. Are there actually any proponents of waterboarding that have had it done to them?

And, As other's have mentioned it is the psychological component that plays a major part in making someone feel like they are being tortured.

Frankly, I had a bad labor that I would classify as torture (esp in comparision to previous labor)...but I survived and would volunteer again for it. It's that psychological aspect that makes that experience from being a totally unbearable torture to something I would sign up for again.

It's impossible to replicate the real feelings behind torture when the volunteer knows they can walk out at any moment.

And my step father beat me with a chain when I was 7 years old, boo-hoo!

 

[ClayTrainor]

Easy to declare victory when you keep diverting and changing the subject, the Holocaust? How the fuck does that relate to the enemies of my country trying to murder innocent Americans?

self-declared victory is all you'll ever get.

You asked me this stupid fucking question:
"Why don't you tell us what exactly will you gain by not water boarding?"

And i basically said, i don't gain anything by not supporting torture. I dont' gain anything by not supporting the holocaust either, but i know it's the right thing to do, based on my Morals and logic.

Get it? Got it? Good... I didn't change the subject anymore than you do, with your little "retard" example, below.

It's called using an example, because clearly the concept of torture being wrong can't get through your thick "objective" skull.

How does that relate to pouring wasser on their heads to get them with the program?

Because they're both pure evil. One more obvious than the other, but both evil, nonetheless.

Oh, so if if a neo-con has ascribed to one of Ayn Rands ideals it makes me a neocon?

Re-read what i said, and get back to me. I never called you a neo-con, stop putting words in my mouth.

Please. Retarded people pick their noses and wipe their asses, does that make you a retarded person?I hope not, because I'd be wasting my time with you.

Retards, and nose-picking? Now who's changing topics. However, i'm not a hypocrite, i understand the comparison you're trying to make, and agree to an extent.

I'm not gonna declare myself a victory due to this though, because i don't need an ego boost.

On Osama bin Laden, WHY are we after him? What exactly did he do on 9/11? Nothing,

I agree, but at the time, i thought he was therefore i supported the invasion for those reasons. Foolish of me, ill admit. I'm with you on this though.

he was half way around the world sitting in another country minding his business, which by the way wasn't flying jets into buildings.

Yup, or he was already dead, one of the 2.

I've cheered when people have committed crimes, does that make me guilty of committing a crime?

Nope, but advocating torture is still wrong, immoral and foolish.

 

[Danke]

I never said it was, then I don't agree that pouring water on someones head is torture.

Yes, but you were, and are equating you childhood pool experiences with water boarding.

Quite childish.

 

[Objectivist]

Yes, but you were, and are equating you childhood pool experiences with water boarding.

Quite childish.

Pool? What pool?

 

[ClayTrainor]

Pool? What pool?

Was it a beach? I'm too lazy to read-through right now.

 

[Objectivist]

self-declared victory is all you'll ever get.

You asked me this stupid fucking question:
"Why don't you tell us what exactly will you gain by not water boarding?"

And i basically said, i don't gain anything by not supporting torture. I dont' gain anything by not supporting the holocaust either, but i know it's the right thing to do, based on my Morals and logic.

Get it? Got it? Good... I didn't change the subject anymore than you do, with your little "retard" example, below.

It's called using an example, because clearly the concept of torture being wrong can't get through your thick "objective" skull.


Because they're both pure evil. One more obvious than the other, but both evil, nonetheless.


Re-read what i said, and get back to me. I never called you a neo-con, stop putting words in my mouth.



Retards, and nose-picking? Now who's changing topics. However, i'm not a hypocrite, i understand the comparison you're trying to make, and agree to an extent.

I'm not gonna declare myself a victory due to this though, because i don't need an ego boost.

I agree, but at the time, i thought he was therefore i supported the invasion for those reasons. Foolish of me, ill admit. I'm with you on this though.



Yup, or he was already dead, one of the 2.



Nope, but advocating torture is still wrong, immoral and foolish.

From an objective perspective the act of pouring water on someones head is a point of contention, I don't think it's torture. It does produce results.

 

[klamath]

From an objective perspective the act of pouring water on someones head is a point of contention, I don't think it's torture. It does produce results.

why?

 

[Objectivist]

Is putting someone is a jail cell torture?

 

[Danke]

Pool? What pool?

Oh, I'm sorry. You were hauled off to a foreign country and the drownings occurred daily over the course of months and years.

 

[ClayTrainor]

From an objective perspective the act of pouring water on someones head is a point of contention, I don't think it's torture.

When you say "pouring water on someones head" you really ignore the fruit of the issue. Of course you have to say it like that, in order to back up your points, but no, it is torture, no question about it. It's not just water going on your head, it fills up your lungs, prevents you from breathing and causes EXTREME anxiety, and can lead to death.

Here's a quote from a Navy Seal Instructor, discussing the issue on another forum.

Waterboarding is a controlled drowning that, in the American model, occurs under the watch of a doctor, a psychologist, an interrogator and a trained strap-in/strap-out team. It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning. How much the victim is to drown depends on the desired result (in the form of answers to questions shouted into the victim’s face) and the obstinacy of the subject. A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs which show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience, to horrific suffocating punishment to the final death spiral.

It does produce results.

Yea, some lies, some truth, and how do you tell the difference?

Torture can be used to make your own truths, man. It's easy to get anyone to say whatever they have to, in order to stop the torture. And yes, waterboarding is torture, and you're dead wrong on this issue.