Mancow Muller, gets waterboarded and says "it is absolutely torture"

[0zzy]

Have you even read the thread? Read back up, I AM speaking out against this video.

I'm not interested in people volunteering to be tortured to "gain perspective", I'm concerned that there are people here that would knowingly torture people in order to prove their point. Why the hell are you trying to prove its torture in the first place, if you're not trying to prove its WRONG? If you're not trying to prove that ANYONE who does it or approves of it needs to be prosecuted?

How about those videos of kids jumping off trucks into bushes and breaking their wrist? That could be a form of torture! OH NOES! But it was voluntary, stupid kids.

This is a voluntary, stupid guy. The reason it isn't off youtube is because it's a psychological and internal type of torture that doesn't show people having their fingers cut off or bleeding.

 

[0zzy]

btw, that was not at all how they do waterboarding. That was just poring water over someone's face. dubya tee eff.

 

[Sandman33]

btw, that was not at all how they do waterboarding. That was just poring water over someone's face. dubya tee eff.

Yes that seemed VERY weak. Like after 5 seconds he wanted his first breath and just got up...lame.

Let Jesse Venture do it to him

 

[Objectivist]

Says it was " instantaneous and horrific" "No way in hell would I have done that if I known it was that bad".

Here is the video.
http://www.wlsam.com/Article.asp?id=1323491&spid=28931

I commend Mancow for having the balls to get tortured and admit he was wrong when he thought it would just be some water splashed in the face.

It's amazing that some people buy the irrational propaganda that waterboarding is no big deal, when we prosecuted the Japanese for war crimes for the exact same thing. Sometimes it takes a real life experience (a bad one) to humble yourself and say you were wrong.

What the Japanese did is different than what happens today. They would force water into you(down your throat) and fill you up so to speak.

 

[LibForestPaul]

An act alone is not torture

i.e. if I punch you in the face is that torture?
if i lock you in a cellar, and come downstairs every hour and punch you in the face, until you tell me where you hide your PM, is that assault?

 

[LATruth]

An act alone is not torture

i.e. if I punch you in the face is that torture?
if i lock you in a cellar, and come downstairs every hour and punch you in the face, until you tell me where you hide your PM, is that assault?

Was Mancow "tortured"? No. Did he get a sample of waterboarding? Maybe.

Have him endure the process for hours on end, without a "tap out clause", for days. That's torture.

 

[Objectivist]

As I said on then air tonight, I'd rather our troops only have to go thru water boarding than the brutality of a beheading or beaten with a hammer. One lets you go away with a new respect for water, the other leaves you dead.

I still say my, stick a curling iron up their ass technique works better.

 

[jdmyprez_deo_vindice]

As I said on then air tonight, I'd rather our troops only have to go thru water boarding than the brutality of a beheading or beaten with a hammer. One lets you go away with a new respect for water, the other leaves you dead.

I still say my, stick a curling iron up their ass technique works better.

Or better yet, how about we stop all of these stupid ass unconstitutional wars/invasions/occupations and actually mind our own business long enough that "enhanced interrogation" is no longer even needed. If we were not there, our troops and civillians in harms way would not be captured and beheaded. If we had never involved ourselves in the affairs of others to begin with than odds are that we would not have an Al-Qaeda problem today and we would not be pouring water on anyone except for happy kids at your nearest water park. The whole business is just stupidity on a grand scale.

I remember after 9/11 when I was suckered in to a blind patriotic fervor, I enlisted in the Army. My assigned job was to work as a member of military intelligence (specifically an interrogator). I had to do a lot of soul searching and after long hours of prayer and talking with my Wife, I came to the conclusion that I could not partake in the torture of my fellow man no matter what he did. Being faced with the very real possibility that I would be called upon to torture in the name of Uncle Sam gave me a whole new perspective about the events of 9/11, the issue of torture, warfare and how far we had drifted. In some ways, my government asking me to torture others in their name is responsible for my being a part of this movement and was one of the top reasons for why I walked away from the military. So you may think that we should shove irons up people's asses but I would like to see your reaction when a government tells you that you will actually have to do it while you watch a member of your species cry out in pain and suffer before your eyes. Torture is not honorable or glorious or even neccesary. Torture in the name of peace is an oxymoron of the highest degree and it simply reflects how far we as a society have fallen.

 

[Objectivist]

Or better yet, how about we stop all of these stupid ass unconstitutional wars/invasions/occupations and actually mind our own business long enough that "enhanced interrogation" is no longer even needed. If we were not there, our troops and civillians in harms way would not be captured and beheaded. If we had never involved ourselves in the affairs of others to begin with than odds are that we would not have an Al-Qaeda problem today and we would not be pouring water on anyone except for happy kids at your nearest water park. The whole business is just stupidity on a grand scale.

I remember after 9/11 when I was suckered in to a blind patriotic fervor, I enlisted in the Army. My assigned job was to work as a member of military intelligence (specifically an interrogator). I had to do a lot of soul searching and after long hours of prayer and talking with my Wife, I came to the conclusion that I could not partake in the torture of my fellow man no matter what he did. Being faced with the very real possibility that I would be called upon to torture in the name of Uncle Sam gave me a whole new perspective about the events of 9/11, the issue of torture, warfare and how far we had drifted. In some ways, my government asking me to torture others in their name is responsible for my being a part of this movement and was one of the top reasons for why I walked away from the military. So you may think that we should shove irons up people's asses but I would like to see your reaction when a government tells you that you will actually have to do it while you watch a member of your species cry out in pain and suffer before your eyes. Torture is not honorable or glorious or even neccesary. Torture in the name of peace is an oxymoron of the highest degree and it simply reflects how far we as a society have fallen.

I mostly agree with you but have one question and it doesn't relate directly to Afghanistan or Iraq.

Say a group of well trained individuals from a foreign nation acted against us by a crude nuclear weapon being placed in one of our port cities. Now we can trace the materials back to their origin so we know it's a particular country. Do we strike? Or stay home? WHat if we catch the infiltrators with evidence of the act they committed? SAY on video or something? We would suspect a second device or more and millions of Americans could or would die, would you pour water on their head to find out what they knew?

 

[jdmyprez_deo_vindice]

I mostly agree with you but have one question and it doesn't relate directly to Afghanistan or Iraq.

Say a group of well trained individuals from a foreign nation acted against us by a crude nuclear weapon being placed in one of our port cities. Now we can trace the materials back to their origin so we know it's a particular country. Do we strike? Or stay home? WHat if we catch the infiltrators with evidence of the act they committed? SAY on video or something? We would suspect a second device or more and millions of Americans could or would die, would you pour water on their head to find out what they knew?

I have seen this argument used a lot. If another nation had directly placed or had sponsored placing WMD's in our territory and there was no question that they were responsible than you can bet your bottom dollar that I would retalliate with full force. HOWEVER, If I knew this beyond a shadow of a doubt that I would ask Congress to declare war before I acted at all.

In regards to torture, no I would not condone the use of torture to acquire information even under those circumstances. There is no excuse at all (in my humble opinion) to torture another human being. Certainly we would be in a pickle but once information leaked out that we were torturing we would be in an even larger one. How many terrorists do you think have been created by the goings on at Guantanamo? We have done nothing to show the world that we have class and dignity but we have managed to make even more of the world hate us. They do not "hare us for our freedoms". They hate us because we act like the big bully on the block who not only steals your bike but then taunts you about it daily. If we expect to ever repair the damage that has been done by idiots in chief, past and present, than we need to start acting like the freedom loving, courageous yet compassionate, free trading, gentle giant that we so often claim to be.

 

[Objectivist]

I have seen this argument used a lot. If another nation had directly placed or had sponsored placing WMD's in our territory and there was no question that they were responsible than you can bet your bottom dollar that I would retalliate with full force. HOWEVER, If I knew this beyond a shadow of a doubt that I would ask Congress to declare war before I acted at all.

In regards to torture, no I would not condone the use of torture to acquire information even under those circumstances. There is no excuse at all (in my humble opinion) to torture another human being. Certainly we would be in a pickle but once information leaked out that we were torturing we would be in an even larger one. How many terrorists do you think have been created by the goings on at Guantanamo? We have done nothing to show the world that we have class and dignity but we have managed to make even more of the world hate us. They do not "hare us for our freedoms". They hate us because we act like the big bully on the block who not only steals your bike but then taunts you about it daily. If we expect to ever repair the damage that has been done by idiots in chief, past and present, than we need to start acting like the freedom loving, courageous yet compassionate, free trading, gentle giant that we so often claim to be.

Actually most hate us because of their own failings as human beings as we as a nation have done more for the rest of the world than any other nation in history. We are the humanitarians of the world.

And Congress gave the power to the POTUS to go to war, War Powers Resolution. Then I don't recall many in Congress that were against sending our blood and treasure to Iraq and Afghanistan. That point hasn't changed with a shift in power either.
YouTube - Democrats on Iraq + WMD's (Weapons of Mass Destruction)

 

[Objectivist]

On your position in regards to playing nice-nice with people that would do us harm, you deserve the death they deal you if you are not willing to do whatever it takes to win against them. If pouring water on their head gave me details that could save my fellow Americans, give me the hose and be happy I don't give them an enema with it. Our enemies don't understand weakness the way you seem to.

 

[Bruno]

Or better yet, how about we stop all of these stupid ass unconstitutional wars/invasions/occupations and actually mind our own business long enough that "enhanced interrogation" is no longer even needed. If we were not there, our troops and civillians in harms way would not be captured and beheaded. If we had never involved ourselves in the affairs of others to begin with than odds are that we would not have an Al-Qaeda problem today and we would not be pouring water on anyone except for happy kids at your nearest water park. The whole business is just stupidity on a grand scale.

I remember after 9/11 when I was suckered in to a blind patriotic fervor, I enlisted in the Army. My assigned job was to work as a member of military intelligence (specifically an interrogator). I had to do a lot of soul searching and after long hours of prayer and talking with my Wife, I came to the conclusion that I could not partake in the torture of my fellow man no matter what he did. Being faced with the very real possibility that I would be called upon to torture in the name of Uncle Sam gave me a whole new perspective about the events of 9/11, the issue of torture, warfare and how far we had drifted. In some ways, my government asking me to torture others in their name is responsible for my being a part of this movement and was one of the top reasons for why I walked away from the military. So you may think that we should shove irons up people's asses but I would like to see your reaction when a government tells you that you will actually have to do it while you watch a member of your species cry out in pain and suffer before your eyes. Torture is not honorable or glorious or even neccesary. Torture in the name of peace is an oxymoron of the highest degree and it simply reflects how far we as a society have fallen.

Very commendable. Your conscience will thank you for decades for your decision.

 

[LibForestPaul]

I mostly agree with you but have one question and it doesn't relate directly to Afghanistan or Iraq.

Say a group of well trained individuals from a foreign nation acted against us by a crude nuclear weapon being placed in one of our port cities. Now we can trace the materials back to their origin so we know it's a particular country. Do we strike? Or stay home? WHat if we catch the infiltrators with evidence of the act they committed? SAY on video or something? We would suspect a second device or more and millions of Americans could or would die, would you pour water on their head to find out what they knew?

Your failure is immense
WHat if we catch the infiltrators with evidence of the act they committed? Prove it.
SAY on video or something? People don't lie and boast.
so we know it's a particular country? How many times will this lie be spread. Yellow cake, yellow cake, over here...
would you pour water on their head to find out what they knew? Or stick curling irons up their childrens asses.

Until our own house is cleaned, nothing is true, nothing is as it seems. All that you see is an illusion. Until OUR own military, OUR own government, OUR own cartels, are brought under control, by systematic dismantling (cash starvation), such questions are meaningless.

 

[Anti Federalist]

On your position in regards to playing nice-nice with people that would do us harm, you deserve the death they deal you if you are not willing to do whatever it takes to win against them. If pouring water on their head gave me details that could save my fellow Americans, give me the hose and be happy I don't give them an enema with it. Our enemies don't understand weakness the way you seem to.

Wow. Cheney talking point memo #2-A-99

Torturing people is not "playing nice nice".

Objectively, it is a piss poor way of obtaining information. Torture a man long enough and he'll confess to anything, much like Khalid Sheik Mohamed confessing to plotting to blow up buildings in Singapore that had even been built at the time of his capture.

Not willing to do whatever it takes to win, huh?

Well, how about a race specific bio weapon? Theater wide nuclear carpet bombing? That would make you a "winner" wouldn't it now?

This is the same bullshit argument Obama used the other day to lay out indefinite detentions. It's the same argument cops use when tasing a man to death or beating him into a coma. It's the same argument Lindsey Graham was using against Ron Paul. We've got to win at any costs, consequences, principles or law be damned.

It is an argument that fails on a massive scale.

Armies of soldiers and cops unleashed upon the people of America and the world, with only a mandate to "win", with no rules of engagement, is nothing but an army of darkness and murder, a multi million man goon squad.

 

[South Park Fan]

On your position in regards to playing nice-nice with people that would do us harm, you deserve the death they deal you if you are not willing to do whatever it takes to win against them. If pouring water on their head gave me details that could save my fellow Americans, give me the hose and be happy I don't give them an enema with it. Our enemies don't understand weakness the way you seem to.

However, much more likely is that they will give you whatever information you want to hear, regardless of whether it is true. Conversely, I would say that YOU deserve the death terrorists deal you if you are willing to use tactics that create more of them. If you had a family member being tortured by the U.S. government, wouldn't you want to get revenge?

 

[klamath]

Let this thread be a lesson to the people that think we could ever have a violent, pure revolution for freedom and have it come out with any more freedom than we have now. You would be standing shoulder to shoulder with men that would be torturing your fellow Americans because they were labeled as antifreedom.

 

[angelatc]

It looks like he had his mouth closed during the deal.

I am not an expert, but I don't think that matters. The way I understand it, which could be absolutely wrong, is that it is a psychological response. Somebody here said it is possible to do a "waterboarding lite" experiment on yourself using a washcloth and the shower.

American exceptional ism? Bah. We're as horrid as all the rest.

 

[silverhawks]

On your position in regards to playing nice-nice with people that would do us harm, you deserve the death they deal you if you are not willing to do whatever it takes to win against them. If pouring water on their head gave me details that could save my fellow Americans, give me the hose and be happy I don't give them an enema with it. Our enemies don't understand weakness the way you seem to.

The torture memos certainly weren't released to expose Bush - since Obama and the Dems obviously have NO intention of pursuing prosecution. If they were even halfway serious, they'd have impeached Bush while he was in office.

So what reason does that leave? Perhaps to manufacture public consent and approval for torture to be used on detainees of the US government, and "enemies of the people"? All "in the name of national security" of course, since that affects every American!

Give some thought as to who currently shaped policy says those detainees are going to be in the near future.

You sure you don't want anyone speaking out against torture?

 

[Objectivist]

Your failure is immense
WHat if we catch the infiltrators with evidence of the act they committed? Prove it.
SAY on video or something? People don't lie and boast.
so we know it's a particular country? How many times will this lie be spread. Yellow cake, yellow cake, over here...
would you pour water on their head to find out what they knew? Or stick curling irons up their childrens asses.

Until our own house is cleaned, nothing is true, nothing is as it seems. All that you see is an illusion. Until OUR own military, OUR own government, OUR own cartels, are brought under control, by systematic dismantling (cash starvation), such questions are meaningless.

What the hell are you rambling about?