General Libertarians In Swing States: Can we risk 4 more Obama years by voting for Johnson?

Thank you so much for the kind and welcoming words!! GREAT to hear from you!!!!!!

And as for your point about Gary Johnson winning if everyone voted for him who liked him, I'm not sure I agree with that -- sadly I fear this country, as a whole, would rather the government get big and take care of them. I hope it isnt true, but that is just a feeling I get. I wish you were right and it is a great thought, something I would hope to be true too, but sadly I'm not sure thats true today.
But -- that wasn't your point. Back to your point, I agree the vote is a nice way to not only thank him but support him too. And he is trying to make changes, this is your way of supporting the change he wants to see in the country. But he doesn't have the power to make many of the changes he wants anyway, wouldnt he be better off running for congress and passing bills? Unless he acts like Obama, Bush, etc, and just makes up his own powers (which I'm guessing he wotn -- he will follow the constitution and limit his own powers), he won't be able to very much to make the changes......so why he is not running for congress to help others like Paul?

I went off on a few tangents, but back to your earlier point, you are 100% correct to say that if I vote for Romney it is for ONE reason, he is not Obama. And while your words were nice, I'm not sure you swayed me to vote for G.J. just because he "tried". Care to talk a bit more about why you like him?
And again - thanks for being so polite!

We will have to disagree about the impact a GJ win would have on American domestic and foreign policy. Obviously he has Constitutional authority to scale back current military interventions. Could effective end the War on Drugs, pardon MJ possession cases, ask for resignations from the DoJ regarding F&F. Instead of giving empty speeches, he would actually talk about making real cuts to government. I could go on, but I'll skip ahead.

To say GJ would make an ineffective president would require an assumption that GJ could actually win. Once you make that assumption, you have defeated the premise that GJ would be ineffective. The simple miracle that Americans rejected the two party system would be monumental leap forward; something you said you would hope to be true.

The only argument to make is that GJ has no chance of winning, GJ peels votes from Romney, and Obama is worse than Romney. This is all true, however Romney is likely to continue a few too many evils for me to cast a vote for him in good conscience. Again, even in OH, my vote is statistically meaningless. I will cast my meaningless vote in the way that I believe will most benefit the nation. I will compromise on principle to oust a bad politician, but not on this year's potus. This year the lesser evil is just a little too evil for my moral principles.

Tell you what, if Romney starts talking about closing foreign bases, ending wars, bringing troops home, and adopting a non-interventionist foreign policy, then I might vote for him. (edit: Romney is of course completely untrustworthy even if he did say it, but assuming he actually meant it)

Going back to GJ peeling votes from Romney - What if I told you that I knew an Obama supporter that would promise to vote for GJ as long as you did too. Would you accept that agreement, assuming both sides kept their word?
 
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I don't think we should have a standing army. I also think we should have transparent government meaning it shouldn't have classified information.

So you just support other countries having spys....not us?
Or should we have them but just have their addresses and identity posted for all to see?

Without a standing army, are you suggesting we post a Tweet to everyone if we get attacked?
what about other countries who come into our air or water space? should we look the other way? Or are you suggesting we use the technology that you wouldn't have supported spending money on many years ago, to detect those people in that area?
Maybe we could all hand out flowers -- wouldn't that be nice?!?
 
I don't think the US should have nukes either since they are used to target civilians.
 
So you just support other countries having spys....not us?
Or should we have them but just have their addresses and identity posted for all to see?

Without a standing army, are you suggesting we post a Tweet to everyone if we get attacked?
what about other countries who come into our air or water space? should we look the other way? Or are you suggesting we use the technology that you wouldn't have supported spending money on many years ago, to detect those people in that area?
Maybe we could all hand out flowers -- wouldn't that be nice?!?

If anyone should have armies it should be the states (and I don't necessarily think they need them either)

You need two way interpretation of Constitution law. If the president has 100% of the guns, then it's a one way dictation.
 
Lou, non-swing state here, pretty much red no matter what lever I pull, but here's my take:

Obama and his agenda == Romney and his agenda. Neither have a record of small government.

Romney will say anything to get elected. What has he done, though? Romneycare, gun-banning, governed Taxachusetts, of "Big Dig" fame, and the most notable flip-flopper.

And if you do believe Romney's campaign speeches, he's gonna keep government right on growing, keep the overseas intervention going, keep printing money, keep cranking up the debt, and keep gov't run healthcare.

Does any self-respecting conservative really need to go on? It's embarrassing really to even have to talk about it.

During the primaries, everyone knew that Romney was the closest candidate to Obama of everyone on that GOP stage. Guess what? He still is.

Why do conservatives even need to discuss whether it matters which of these two gets the oval office? We don't have a dog in the hunt. It's like asking why we don't want to choose vanilla over strawberry, when what we really need is steak.

as a non swing state vote -- I love seeing you vote for G.J. and that is eactly what I would do too!
And I do love steak! Though you cant get steak at D.Q. and at the moment, thats where we are located, inside the doors of D.Q. (at least that is why I'm torn)
 
Man, this guy is more dense than a jehovahs witness. This is just getting sad.

That is insulting to both me and jehovahs witnesses ... do you always insult people who ask questions?
I sure hope you dont represent any other people on this forum....are you always this rude?!? Sad if this is who you really are.
 
That's funny.

I actually prefer Obama to Romney. Obama won't start another dumb war.





That being said, I don't bother to advocate for Obama since I have no intention of voting for him.



Obama wont start another war...you mean one after Libya?!?!
which war did Romney start .... hmm....none! So Obama is winning 1-0....and if you count his promise to remove troops in 6 months (which hasn't happened) then it could be 2-0 or 3-0....and yet the left wing is doing all it can to scare people into thinking Romney is the "war guy".

Good to know that Agorism supports what Obama did in Libya, thanks for getting that on the record.
 
By the way, I wish the swing state conservative voters could see things the way most of us see them here on the forums.

If those conservatives realized that they had the power to show the GOP that we won't stand for dem-lite candidates any more, they could leave their ballot blank, pick a third party they were comfortable with, or write-in their favorite conservative.

That might actually get some attention and help us all change things for the better.

This 'lesser of two evils', 'Anyone but Obama' crap is just that. Same game every time, and the GOP knows it. Gotta break out from that endless spiral downward.

C'mon, Lou, if you are a conservative, find your heart and conscience, and vote like one. Don't settle for Democrat-lite. There's too much at stake, and your future generations will thank you for it.

PA only lets people registered with the party vote in the primary, so I could not vote -- but if I remember correctly, I think the Republicans (not conservatives) in PA voted for Romney.....so why do you think they would change now? And i only ask that because you say the conservatives have the power to change the GOP and while I would be happy to do that - change both Dem and Repub......but can you explain how voting 3rd party will be sure to get the change you, or I, or we want?
 
I would guess, because the other two are the same and GJ is different.
That's why I'm voting for Ron Paul.

How is that different than people being against Obama and therefor voting for Romney?
you are against both and then vote for a 3rd. your Icon is making me dizzy -- but im still here and you've still got my attention, so keep sharing.
 
If Ron Paul has a 1% chance of running in 2016, those odds still sound pretty good to me.

BTW- I have no problem with Ron Paul write in's. If those votes don't get counted o well. It's the point of it. This election is essentially a futile and meaningless event since the election ended in the primary and not the general. The only point now is to just vote for the same candidate again in the general.

you are making up the 1% chance though. you are just as likely to see him have a 0% chance of running and yet you make up the 1% to hold your point.
as to your comment of "It's the point of it." I take that to mean you are doing this to "make a point" not to "make things better" but just because you are going to let your ego get in the way of what you may or may not think is best for the 2012 election. Pride can blind people.
 
If they ever did that, they know it would be suicide. What kept Russia or China from doing that?

THE USA!! the large military that you want to cut and remove troops from area. you want people in the oval office that wont ever push that red button....and yet that is the reason Russia and China have not done it. I think G.J. may blow up the red button and let it be seen on live tv....then remove all our troops and then throw away all our guns.....so then the question goes back to you -- if we dont have them fearing us, what will keep them from doing it? Other than sending flowers and a nice card asking them not to, of course.
 
We will have to disagree about the impact a GJ win would have on American domestic and foreign policy. Obviously he has Constitutional authority to scale back current military interventions. Could effective end the War on Drugs, pardon MJ possession cases, ask for resignations from the DoJ regarding F&F. Instead of giving empty speeches, he would actually talk about making real cuts to government. I could go on, but I'll skip ahead.

To say GJ would make an ineffective president would require an assumption that GJ could actually win. Once you make that assumption, you have defeated the premise that GJ would be ineffective. The simple miracle that Americans rejected the two party system would be monumental leap forward; something you said you would hope to be true.

The only argument to make is that GJ has no chance of winning, GJ peels votes from Romney, and Obama is worse than Romney. This is all true, however Romney is likely to continue a few too many evils for me to cast a vote for him in good conscience. Again, even in OH, my vote is statistically meaningless. I will cast my meaningless vote in the way that I believe will most benefit the nation. I will compromise on principle to oust a bad politician, but not on this year's potus. This year the lesser evil is just a little too evil for my moral principles.

Tell you what, if Romney starts talking about closing foreign bases, ending wars, bringing troops home, and adopting a non-interventionist foreign policy, then I might vote for him. (edit: Romney is of course completely untrustworthy even if he did say it, but assuming he actually meant it)

Going back to GJ peeling votes from Romney - What if I told you that I knew an Obama supporter that would promise to vote for GJ as long as you did too. Would you accept that agreement, assuming both sides kept their word?

First, your vote is not meaningless -- as i said to someone else on here, if you believe that, stay home. and you wont, you will go vote -- because the vote means something! and that's a good thing!

as to your last question, if he/she was in the same state, I would instantly do that deal and keep my word. Yes....id write in R.P. as long as they promised not to vote for Obama -- done deal...instantly! My reasons for not voting 3rd party are because of my fear for Obama...a fear I have not had about any recent POTUS....so again, yes, i agree to the deal!
 
THE USA!! the large military that you want to cut and remove troops from area. you want people in the oval office that wont ever push that red button....and yet that is the reason Russia and China have not done it. I think G.J. may blow up the red button and let it be seen on live tv....then remove all our troops and then throw away all our guns.....so then the question goes back to you -- if we dont have them fearing us, what will keep them from doing it? Other than sending flowers and a nice card asking them not to, of course.
Wow, never thought of it that way. I guess we should hurry up and start a war with Iran so we can use up what money we don't have and thus hurry up our government going broke. After that, I guess it wouldn't matter who the hell was president.
 
you are making up the 1% chance though. you are just as likely to see him have a 0% chance of running and yet you make up the 1% to hold your point.
as to your comment of "It's the point of it." I take that to mean you are doing this to "make a point" not to "make things better" but just because you are going to let your ego get in the way of what you may or may not think is best for the 2012 election. Pride can blind people.

No it's because I don't care. The thought of a Romney vote counter seeing a vote for Ron Paul in a swing state that they won't count makes me laugh.

This election ended in the GOP primary.

it's already OVER. Now we're just voting for kicks.
 
Carter too, but he was the least evil US president according to Lew Rockwell.

what does "least evil" mean?
he caused the worst problem for this country since the Depression!

(note that Obama forgot about the problems Carter caused when he talks about the problems Bush caused)
 
Wow, never thought of it that way. I guess we should hurry up and start a war with Iran so we can use up what money we don't have and thus hurry up our government going broke. After that, I guess it wouldn't matter who the hell was president.

You asked why Russia and china never used them --- did you have another reason than fear that we would return fire and destroy them?
 
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